I'm thinking about actually making my first paladin for a game, well maybe, I'm not sure yet.
However when I think Paladin, I think "guy in shining plate armor with an equally shining shield", not "guy with greatsword".
But I know that 1hd has serious disadvantages vs 2hd fighting, when it comes to DPR at least.
- 1x Str instead of 1.5x
- 2x Power Attack instead of 3x
- lower base damage on weapon (ok, that's not really a problem)
For that I get a +2 to AC, and another slot that I can enchant, once that happens I get the enchantment bonus to AC twice. Of course that also means more costs to enchant it.
I know I can do Shield Bash, but does that require the TWF feats? Does that then somehow bring you near 2hd damage?
Also it says that a shield enhancement doesn't count for shieldbash, unless enchanted as a weapon. Does that mean I can have a Shield +2 (AC)/+1 (weapon) or do I have to decide?
So to those that actually play with a sword+board character, is it a viable option, or is Paladin's AC so high anyway that they wouldn't really profit from it?
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I've seen a Sword and Board Paladin take on challenges three CRs higher than himself solo. You won't deal a whole load of damage consistently, but you'll rarely get struck, and when you do. Just swift heal.
It is a viable build, just be willing to accept that you will not be the major damage dealer.
It's actually more viable for a Paladin then a Fighter.
Paladins tend to be less Str dependent on damage, because of spells and smites.
1) SMITES are not affected by one or two handedness!
2) Your ability TO HIT is not affected by one or two handedness!
3) One handed weapons crit just as often!
4) Most one handed weapons can be used two handed if you feel like it! I.e. you can drop the shield!
5) The shield can become a nice weapon in its own right and give you more attacks!
If you've got unlimited money (100k), the Uber Shield (+5 Spiked SHield of Bashing with +5 Defender) can give you a monstrous AC advantage. If you don't want to invest that much, shield AC is still the cheapest sort of AC you can get (+7 AC for 25k is a STEAL).
Remember #1 above, and make sure you have lots of smites, and you'll be just fine with sword and board, and you'll have mercies to spend on others instead of yourself.
==Aelryinth
To answer your questions in order:
1) No, but if you want to keep your AC bonus you need improved shield bash which does require TWF
2) It brings you near it yes, but it will be difficult
3) Not sure if you can do that, but there is a feat that allows you to add your enhancement bonus for your shield to attack and damage rolls.
Sword and board is the heaviest feat tax build I can think of and a fighter doesn't even have enough feats for everything so you will really have to pick and choose (if you don't pick human its probably not viable).
I have played one sword and board character in my career and here is a potential setup:
1) TWF, Improved shield bash
3) Power attack
5) Double slice/Step up
7) Shield slam
9) Improved bull Rush/Combat Reflexes
11) Shield mastery
13) Improved TWF/Greater bull rush
This is a pretty good idea of the feats you want to start out with. Unfortunately this build requires a lot of ability investment and where a fighter would usually dump Cha to make this work, you can't. To make up for it consider dumping Wis (paladin immunity's help_ and maybe Int (extra human skill point will make this hurt less). If you can somehow make this work, your smiting AoO bull rushes will become legendary amongst your peers. I encourage you to make this work I would like to see it done.
I'm thinking about actually making my first paladin for a game, well maybe, I'm not sure yet.
However when I think Paladin, I think "guy in shining plate armor with an equally shining shield", not "guy with greatsword".
But I know that 1hd has serious disadvantages vs 2hd fighting, when it comes to DPR at least.
- 1x Str instead of 1.5x
- 2x Power Attack instead of 3x
- lower base damage on weapon (ok, that's not really a problem)For that I get a +2 to AC, and another slot that I can enchant, once that happens I get the enchantment bonus to AC twice. Of course that also means more costs to enchant it.
I know I can do Shield Bash, but does that require the TWF feats? Does that then somehow bring you near 2hd damage?
Also it says that a shield enhancement doesn't count for shieldbash, unless enchanted as a weapon. Does that mean I can have a Shield +2 (AC)/+1 (weapon) or do I have to decide?So to those that actually play with a sword+board character, is it a viable option, or is Paladin's AC so high anyway that they wouldn't really profit from it?
In a (real life) 1.5 years long campaign one of my players was a longsword+heavy shield paladin. He was extremely tough, his AC was just high enough to make him hard to hit (especially with smiting) that he survived a lot of things.
And he definitely dished out enough damage, particularly against evil opponents.There are also lots of different options now: quickdraw shields, that paladin variant enchanting armor and shields instead of a weapon, or using ONLY a shield as your sole weapon and the other hand for wands or such.
And yes, you would need TWF for using both sword and shield for attacks. You can maybe reduce problems there by focusing on a high dex and taking weapon finesse and using a light shield and a rapier - only dex for attack values, and power attack should do the rest. I would have to recheck the rules on that though.
To answer your questions in order:
1) No, but if you want to keep your AC bonus you need improved shield bash which does require TWF
...
I just checked on d20pfsrd, and there is no mentioning of a TWF requirement. I also don't recall that one. Is that in a new errata somewhere?
Actually Improved Shield Bash doesn't need TWF.
But the way I understand it, if I actually want to do additional attacks with it, it works like TWF, so I need the feats. Also heavy shields are one-handed weapons, so that means -4/-4 on attacks, which is bad.
I might skip the shield bash stuff for a while... The free Bullrush from Shield Slam might be nice though.
Shield Master seems to be the feat that allows you to count shield enhancement for attacks and damage too, but thats BAB +11 and lots of feat prereqs.
Remember #1 above, and make sure you have lots of smites, and you'll be just fine with sword and board, and you'll have mercies to spend on others instead of yourself.
How do you get more smites? There's no "Extra Smite" feat, it's not depending on your Cha score or anything, it's just a fixed number depending on your level. What am I missing?
So just use a Light shield the -1 to AC starts to matter less and less as the enhancement bonuses stack up and once you get shield master the attack penalty for the shield is gone.
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Actually Improved Shield Bash doesn't need TWF.
But the way I understand it, if I actually want to do additional attacks with it, it works like TWF, so I need the feats. Also heavy shields are one-handed weapons, so that means -4/-4 on attacks, which is bad.
I might skip the shield bash stuff for a while... The free Bullrush from Shield Slam might be nice though.
Shield Slam is amazing, especially if you eventually combine it with Improved and Greater Bull Rush. Have some fun playing pinball with your enemies!
If you can live with medium armor(or can afford magical Mithril heavy armor) and aren't really trying to grab TWF then add 2 levels of guide ranger and the shield based combat(both in the APG)style pick up shield slam with the combat style feat at level 2. Frees up putting a good roll or points into DEX and just pummel folks with the shield as your primary weapon. And guide gives you a once a day +2/+2 versus BBEG allowing you a mini-smite on non evil enemies.
Then you can drop the feats into PA, the bull rushes, or shield based feats like arrow shield and the like.
Plus a minor skill point boost, and you can use a wand of lead blades to pump the shield bash damage even more.
As a variation on the theme
Edit: Upon further reflection the shield style guide archetype ranger may be the best S+B fighter in the game.
Shield Slam at 2nd level
Shield Master at lvl 6 ( no penalties on attack rolls with shield when wielding another weapon and add enhancement AC bonus to attack and damage with shield) so -4 with a light weapon "off hand" and the shield as the main with -0.
The guide focus bonus isn't as hefty as the smite but isnt bad and can boost that DPR on those big fights.
This doesn't necessarily jive with the image you have of the shining knight, but a buckler can be equipped with a 1h weapon. At any point, you can use the weapon 2 handed by taking -1 to hit. You'll lose the AC bonus from the buckler, but you gain the other things you want (1.5 str bonus, 3x power attack). Is your enemy hitting too often? Switch to 1 handed and get all your Shield AC and the +1 to hit back.
Shield Slam is amazing, especially if you eventually combine it with Improved and Greater Bull Rush. Have some fun playing pinball with your enemies!Actually Improved Shield Bash doesn't need TWF.
But the way I understand it, if I actually want to do additional attacks with it, it works like TWF, so I need the feats. Also heavy shields are one-handed weapons, so that means -4/-4 on attacks, which is bad.
I might skip the shield bash stuff for a while... The free Bullrush from Shield Slam might be nice though.
Is Shield Slam really that great? I mean, I never saw Bull Rush actually used, but it seems rather sub-par to me than some of the other CM, like trip or disarm.
And according to the Shield Slam feat, you take your attack roll for the combat manover check, so from how I understand that, you don't get the +2 bonus from Improved and Greater Bull Rush on those attempts. You also don't provoke AoO in the first place, so Improved Bull Rush really doesn't do anything. And Greater... ok provokes AoO from allies, that might be a bit useful, but not sure its worth 3 feats.
And then you tossed the enemy 20ft away or so, and have to run after him, meaning you can't full attack him. (ok neither can he)
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Shield Slam is amazing, especially if you eventually combine it with Improved and Greater Bull Rush. Have some fun playing pinball with your enemies!Actually Improved Shield Bash doesn't need TWF.
But the way I understand it, if I actually want to do additional attacks with it, it works like TWF, so I need the feats. Also heavy shields are one-handed weapons, so that means -4/-4 on attacks, which is bad.
I might skip the shield bash stuff for a while... The free Bullrush from Shield Slam might be nice though.
Is Shield Slam really that great? I mean, I never saw Bull Rush actually used, but it seems rather sub-par to me than some of the other CM, like trip or disarm.
And according to the Shield Slam feat, you take your attack roll for the combat manover check, so from how I understand that, you don't get the +2 bonus from Improved and Greater Bull Rush on those attempts. You also don't provoke AoO in the first place, so Improved Bull Rush really doesn't do anything. And Greater... ok provokes AoO from allies, that might be a bit useful, but not sure its worth 3 feats.
And then you tossed the enemy 20ft away or so, and have to run after him, meaning you can't full attack him. (ok neither can he)
I don't think it's a good idea to assume you'll always be able to full attack. Bull Rush is a great defensive maneuver for protecting weaker characters, and it can be done with a standard action or on a charge. I believe also that the +2 from Improved and Greater stack with Shield Slam's attack roll.
This also opens up excellent full attack options: Attack with other weapon up to BAB, and then shield slam them either away from the party or into the raging barbarian for some more full attack and attack of opportunity action.
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1) Your GM doesn't frequently just ignore your character to go after easier targets to hit
The way to do this is to be dangerous. If every time the monster ignores you, you hit them hard and then push them away from the squishies, either the DM will come around and start paying attention to you, or you'll have a lot of easy combats.
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With Paladin I don't like shields just because it makes it very hard/ or impossible to cast spells/Lay on Hands once you have a weapon out and no free hands, or you are losing the shields AC bonus when you do either of those for the turn.
Not true. You can use a light shield. Light shields allow you to hold, but not use, an object in your shield hand. It's a free action to move your weapon to your other hand.
So to use Lay on Hands:
1. Move weapon to shield hand (Free Action)
2. Heal self with Lay on Hands (Swift Action)
3. Move weapon back to weapon hand (Free Action)
4. Full Attack (Full-Round Action)
If you have a problem with this tactic, you can also get a Quick-Draw Shield and the Quick-Draw Feat, and make stowing your shield a Free Action.
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Also, weapon cord.With Paladin I don't like shields just because it makes it very hard/ or impossible to cast spells/Lay on Hands once you have a weapon out and no free hands, or you are losing the shields AC bonus when you do either of those for the turn.Not true. You can use a light shield. Light shields allow you to hold, but not use, an object in your shield hand. It's a free action to move your weapon to your other hand.
So to use Lay on Hands:
1. Move weapon to shield hand (Free Action)
2. Heal self with Lay on Hands (Swift Action)
3. Move weapon back to weapon hand (Free Action)
4. Full Attack (Full-Round Action)If you have a problem with this tactic, you can also get a Quick-Draw Shield and the Quick-Draw Feat, and make stowing your shield a Free Action.
Less optimal, but yeah, also doable. The Holy Warrior with Blade and Shield is a definite archetype, and it has a lot of support.
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I am currently playing a "sword and board"paladin.
He is an Asimar. My first feat was Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Bastard Sword, and third level feat was Toughness.
He is quite effective. He does a decent 1d10+3 damage, and does an average of 8 hit points of damage a round, and he has nice high ac ( thank you steel shield), and lay on of hands, so he can stay in the fight, and he does his job....he can keep the beasties, last game it was a grizzly bear, focused on him. This allows the rest of the party (along with my steady damage) to bring our opponents down.
Shield master removes the negatives for TWF as well, which is why the sword and board ranger (shield master at 6th, and no prereqs required) is such a good option for this build.
Ultimately, sword and board is feat prohibitive for a paladin if you want to do all the fancy tricks. Your best bet is just shield focus and forget the rest. Otherwise, focus your feats to shield master before anything else, and except you'll need a high dex to keep moving up the TWF tree.
Yeah once I get shield master things change, but it needs 11th level and lots of feats.
Ranger, well doesn't fit with my idea, especially since it's 6 levels. I see that from an optimizing standpoint it might be an option.While a Bastard Sword is cool, its just really a 1 damage difference to the Longsword. If you get it for free, cool, but I don't think its worth the EWP feat. :(
Actually Improved Shield Bash doesn't need TWF.
But the way I understand it, if I actually want to do additional attacks with it, it works like TWF, so I need the feats. Also heavy shields are one-handed weapons, so that means -4/-4 on attacks, which is bad.
I might skip the shield bash stuff for a while... The free Bullrush from Shield Slam might be nice though.
Shield Master seems to be the feat that allows you to count shield enhancement for attacks and damage too, but thats BAB +11 and lots of feat prereqs.
Remember #1 above, and make sure you have lots of smites, and you'll be just fine with sword and board, and you'll have mercies to spend on others instead of yourself.How do you get more smites? There's no "Extra Smite" feat, it's not depending on your Cha score or anything, it's just a fixed number depending on your level. What am I missing?
Smite is awesome, and overpowered, so, no, there is no extra smiting.
Shield master removes the negatives for TWF as well, which is why the sword and board ranger (shield master at 6th, and no prereqs required) is such a good option for this build.
Ultimately, sword and board is feat prohibitive for a paladin if you want to do all the fancy tricks. Your best bet is just shield focus and forget the rest. Otherwise, focus your feats to shield master before anything else, and except you'll need a high dex to keep moving up the TWF tree.
You can get extra smites with oath of vengeance and extra lay on hands :-)
First off, without knowing your party composition and player/DM/campaign style, it's hard to judge which way to run with this.
Are you guarding the softies or every PC for himself? Are you skirmishing, or drawing a line in the sand? Do most battles happen in 10' corridors, wide plains, or in swamps? One-three rounds at CR or marathon epic battles CR+3? Regular stats, 12 pt. buy, or even 30? Will Cloudkill and Entangle be in play with you guarding the edge or fireballs with you mopping up?
The game varies too much for one answer.
That said:
One highly effective Ranger PC I DMed used a heavy shield with a light weapon. (The heavy shield does more damage than a light one, so it balances except for crits being better on your light weapon.)
Using TWF (with or without shield) is very feat-expensive/MAD, but a Paladin will blow any BBEG out of the water instantly with your smites. (Which may be a bad thing depending on your DM. He may switch to BB-neutral-Gs instead, for story's sake.) Divine Favor, et al, if you like combat buffs, will go much further as well.
Another PC I DMed, a high-level Paladin, made great use of two weapon sets: a reach 2HW mixed with sword/board (no TWF). He'd switch often, depending on the enemy and the party's situation/tactics/timing.
Giants caught off guard? Smack them with the 2HW, avoiding AoO and killing fast vs. low AC.
Dragon prepped with spells? Armor up with sword & board, the AoOs are the least of your worries, and your smite will handle offense.
The neat thing is, with a 2HW, you can sneak in a spell easier without a lamer shield. (Really, if you're going for AC, go all the way or it's not worth it. You may even want AC feats.)
Also if you have Quickdraw, the switching goes smoother. You can pull the shield while you move (can't quickdraw the better shield), Quickdrawing the sword, and getting in a blow. Though not a charge, you've lost little, you're a Full BAB class who'll hit. If ambushed, you had your reach weapon out, and hopefully Combat Reflexes.
BTW, Combat Reflexes is a must (like PA) for nearly every melee build, especially if critters are trying to weasel past you to the softies. Couple those extra attacks with a bit of combat control (Bull Rush as the above posters propose) and you're doing your job.
One last build: I had a low-midlevel sword/board Paladin who would cast Pro. Evil and bash through as many doors as she could while it lasted. She was backed up with lots of ranged attackers. All she had to do was give the baddies somebody they thought they could hit. She did little damage, but by the time they realized they couldn't hit her, they were falling dead to my allies who were relatively far away. (Often more than one move from the baddies, so if some broke away, they'd be wasting time, and usually dying, before they got to strike at somebody else.)
BTW, do not try this tactic with somebody who can't heal himself or has a poor Will save. Just saying.
Hope that helps,
JMK
So to those that actually play with a sword+board character, is it a viable option, or is Paladin's AC so high anyway that they wouldn't really profit from it?
Yes, it's a viable option. With the way Smite Evil works in Pathfinder (one opponent per use, not one attack, adds a deflection bonus to AC, as well, etc.), it's extremely viable from the start. Granted, you'll do a bit less damage per attack when not smiting than if you were using a greatsword, but your AC means you can last longer in a fight (a bit of a wash).
Human 20-Point Buy
14 Str, 16 Dex (+2 race), 14 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 15 Cha
1st- Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd- Power Attack
4th- +1 Cha
5th- Double Slice
7th- Shield Slam
8th- +1 Dex
9th- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
11th- Two-Weapon Rend
12th- +1 Cha
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Use a light shield (with the bashing ability as soon as you can afford it; note that a bashing mithral light shield counts as a +1 magical silver weapon that does 1d6/x2 bludgeoning damage for an extra 850 gp, since mithral items are automatically masterwork, and a +1 armor/shield ability) and a one-handed weapon (longsword for Iomedae, scimitar for Sarenrae, warhammer for Torag). A belt of giant strength and headband of alluring charisma are high on the list of magic item priorities.
If you don't care about Two-Weapon Rend, then Weapon Focus (Scimitar) and Improved Critical (Scimitar) at 5th and 11th level aren't bad choices (especially with bless weapon). Channel Smite and Alignment Channel may be good choices for a campaign with a lot of undead and evil outsiders. Shield Master is OK, but IMO isn't a "must have" for a paladin ("You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield's shield bonus to attacks and damage rolls as if it was an enhancement bonus."). At best, you gain an effective +3 on attack rolls and +1 on damage with a heavy shield (as your primary weapon and a light weapon as your off-hand weapon) over the bashing ability (and just an effective +2 on attack rolls over a bashing light shield); your non-shield attacks are unaffected. Since an 11th level paladin can smite 4 opponents per day (all attacks at +5 on attack rolls, assuming a 17 Cha and a +4 headband, and +11 damage, +22 on the first hit vs. evil dragons/evil outsiders/undead), you don't really need it.
I had a sword and board paladin in a game I ran. He was the most obnoxious thing around. He was next to impossible to hit and dealt decent enough damage.
I'd recommend using a scimitar, just for the crit-potential.
Consider Shield Focus as well as dodge if your stats allow for it.
And naturally weapon focus and Power Attack.
Don't forget to have fun either ;)
Yes, the Uber Shield can grant +12 AC.
The Defender is a weapon Enhancement, and separate from your shield enhancement. So if you take a swing at the enemy with your shield, you get +5 AC. IF you have SHield Master, you don't even reduce your chance th/dmg, becuase a Shield Master uses the SHIELD bonus for attack, not the WEAPON bonus.
So, yeah, totally doable. Just set it for 'auto +5 AC' and never change it. You won't use it much until higher levels...but at those levels it is VERY useful.
And as someone pointed out above, you can use lay on hands for smites, and you CAN get extra lay on hands.
===Aelryinth