I'm running an evoker. For some reason I overlooked Dazing Spell until now.
I was looking through the bestiary monster types. It looks like almost nothing is immune to daze. In fact, I didn't find a creature immune to daze. A bunch of creature are immune to mind-effecting spells and stunning. But nothing seems to be immune to daze. Perhaps there are some monsters immune, but I didn't see any.
So if I take Dazing Spell I get to daze multiple targets for multiple rounds while doing damage to them all if they fail their Reflex save? Is this the case?
And if so, what are some DMs experience with this metamagic feat. It seems like the type of metamagic feat that makes encounters trivial. Is that the case? Or is there some balancing factor to it? Is it not as bad as looks on paper? If I get it, I'm really leaning towards taking it, will my DM cry? I don't know if taking a feat that will make a DM want to rip his hair out is such a good idea.
I just want to know if Dazing Spell is useable and doesn't make the game trivial.
And if so, what are some DMs experience with this metamagic feat. It seems like the type of metamagic feat that makes encounters trivial. Is that the case? Or is there some balancing factor to it? Is it not as bad as looks on paper? If I get it, I'm really leaning towards taking it, will my DM cry?
It works more or less that way, yes, but though I don't have experience with it it doesn't look that good. It's +3 level slot IIRC, and that's quite a lot - it means the spell DC will be remarkably lower than for crowd controls of equal level.
To target groups of enemies you'd have to have a spell of at least about 3rd level, so you could use this at 11th level earliest, and then they'd have a reflex save DC of 13+caster stat. Compared to a persistant confusion, where they'd have to make two DC 14 + caster stat saves or be confused, or Circle of Death, which is a DC 16 + stat save or die for 11d4 hit dice of enemies, or Cloudkill or any other crod control of about 5th to 6th level, a Dazing Fireball seems fairly balanced, though maybe a little bit on the weak side (especially for putting a feat into it).
I may miss some combinations that are dangerous, but I don't see anything overpowering from skimming the spell list. It seems pretty well in power level, and adds the ability for blasters to do a little crowd control.
Let me see. I have a base intelligence of 20 starting. I plan to have Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Evocation). I plan to focus my stat points entirely on intelligence. By 11th lvl I would have probably an intelligence of around 23 with a +4 headband. So a 27. +10 to DC.
DC 23 fireball with reflex save or a DC 22 Will save with a scorching ray.
Hmm. That toasts giants and Hezrou demons pretty easily. +8 and +3 reflex save specifically.
If I admixture it and make it cold, a mature adult red dragon has a +11 reflex save. Pretty good chance of effecting them absent magic.
I'll have to test this out in play. Looks like a pretty tough spell. Dazed for 2 or 3 rounds while myself and my companions unload on them.
Let me see. I have a base intelligence of 20 starting. I plan to have Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Evocation). I plan to focus my stat points entirely on intelligence. By 11th lvl I would have probably an intelligence of around 23 with a +4 headband. So a 27. +10 to DC.
DC 23 fireball with reflex save or a DC 22 Will save with a scorching ray.
Hmm. That toasts giants and Hezrou demons pretty easily. +8 and +3 reflex save specifically.
If I admixture it and make it cold, a mature adult red dragon has a +11 reflex save. Pretty good chance of effecting them absent magic.
I'll have to test this out in play. Looks like a pretty tough spell. Dazed for 2 or 3 rounds while myself and my companions unload on them.
It does seem good, yeah, and it's great to be able to target dragons and other high-will high-fort monsters with some debuffs. Get your hands on a Lesser Rod of Persistance too, since they're low-level spells!
I probably gave the fact that it can target reflex saves too little respect. It seems really nice now that I think about it. The DC's for direct SoL's will be higher, but so will the save bonuses.
This spell clouds the mind of a humanoid creature with 4 or fewer Hit Dice so that it takes no actions. Humanoids of 5 or more HD are not affected. A dazed subject is not stunned, so attackers get no special advantage against it. After a creature has been dazed by this spell, it is immune to the effects of this spell for 1 minute.
Daze is a very useful cantrip and a nice mass spell at 4th level. But please note, emphasis mine. So it is almost only useful once per creature in a combat, unless you find yourself going past 10 rounds, which almost never happens.
This spell clouds the mind of a humanoid creature with 4 or fewer Hit Dice so that it takes no actions. Humanoids of 5 or more HD are not affected. A dazed subject is not stunned, so attackers get no special advantage against it. After a creature has been dazed by this spell, it is immune to the effects of this spell for 1 minute.Daze is a very useful cantrip and a nice mass spell at 4th level. But please note, emphasis mine. So it is almost only useful once per creature in a combat, unless you find yourself going past 10 rounds, which almost never happens.
The daze spell and the dazed status (see glossary) are two different things.
This spell clouds the mind of a humanoid creature with 4 or fewer Hit Dice so that it takes no actions. Humanoids of 5 or more HD are not affected. A dazed subject is not stunned, so attackers get no special advantage against it. After a creature has been dazed by this spell, it is immune to the effects of this spell for 1 minute.Daze is a very useful cantrip and a nice mass spell at 4th level. But please note, emphasis mine. So it is almost only useful once per creature in a combat, unless you find yourself going past 10 rounds, which almost never happens.
Dazing Spell is a metamagic from the APG that makes target save or be dazed for *spell level* turns. It adds +3 to the slot required.
The daze spell and the dazed status (see glossary) are two different things.This spell clouds the mind of a humanoid creature with 4 or fewer Hit Dice so that it takes no actions. Humanoids of 5 or more HD are not affected. A dazed subject is not stunned, so attackers get no special advantage against it. After a creature has been dazed by this spell, it is immune to the effects of this spell for 1 minute.Daze is a very useful cantrip and a nice mass spell at 4th level. But please note, emphasis mine. So it is almost only useful once per creature in a combat, unless you find yourself going past 10 rounds, which almost never happens.
Yes, but the OP was referring to the Daze spell, at least it sounded that way.
For some reason I overlooked Dazing Spell until now.
And what I had quoted was from the spell.
Edit:
Dazing Spell is a metamagic from the APG that makes target save or be dazed for *spell level* turns. It adds +3 to the slot required.
Ah, my mistake. Sorry about that.
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Let's compare Dazing Fireball to Acid Fog. They'll both slow and damage the opponent in different ways...
Dazing Fireball will do 10d6 damage and daze for 3 rounds on a failed Reflex save, or half damage on a successful save (or none with Evasion).
Acid Fog slows opponents to half speed, obscures vision, causes a -2 attack and damage, prevents ranged weapon attacks, and causes 2d6 damage each round to everyone and everything inside, for 11 rounds. No save.
Dazing Fireball is faster, but potentially less of a problem to opponents. Acid Fog has a lasts longer, has a greater potential for damage, and has no save, but it can be physically escaped from.
YMMV, but I'd prefer the Acid Fog. And, oh, but a Dazing Acid Fog is nasty (as a 9th level spell should be).
And forget a Dazing Scorching Ray. You want a Dazing Acid Arrow instead.
It can
Let's compare Dazing Fireball to Acid Fog. They'll both slow and damage the opponent in different ways...
Except the first one doesn't slow the opponent it renders him unable to act, which is much much more useful.
Many monsters at 11th level can deal with an acid fog pretty easily(usually by moving out of it).
Being dazed for 3 rounds though is a death sentence for everything.
Personally I would ban both persistent spell and dazing spell.
I don't think there's any reason to ban it. A dazing spell is more or less only better than other things in that slot when the enemy's will and fortitude save are both more than three points better than the reflex save. You gain some versatility, but that's easily payed for by having to invest a feat in it.
Now, metamagic rods are a different story.
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... Or is it your view the daze effect would recur every round if using Acid Arrow?
Per the Dazing Spell text, the dazing effect is triggered whenever something takes damage from the spell. This means whilst it's nice on Fireball and the like, it's nicer on Fire Shield or Wall of Fire, and pretty brutal on Acid Pit and the like...
(Unless there's been a FAQ I've missed...)
... But yeah, it's metamagic, so a Rod is always a better choice than a Feat.
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Are you talking about spell resistance? Or is it your view the daze effect would recur every round if using Acid Arrow?
That's my view, yes. The target is dazed when they take damage from a dazing spell. So, first round, Will save or Dazed for 2 rounds, next round, save or dazed for 2 (more) rounds, and so on.
It's also why a Dazing Acid Fog is so great. Save or dazed for six rounds, meaning another six rounds of 2d6 acid damage, and six more saves or dazed for six more rounds, each. And you aren't getting out of the cloud because hey, you're dazed.
this would hold true for Dazing Assault versus Stunning Assault as well. There seems to be ways to gain Stun immunity via spell and magic, Daze less so. Makes Dazing assault a keeper imho
Dazing Terrible Remorse will be the best though. Save daze for a round don't save and dazed for 4 or 3 rounds.
So guarantee dazed.
Nope. Daze Spell can only be applied to spells that deal damage. Terrible remorse does not damage the target - instead it compels the victim to harm oneself.
Isn't the number of rounds the target is dazed based on the original level of the spell? AND it's +3? Underwhelming.
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Isn't the number of rounds the target is dazed based on the original level of the spell? AND it's +3? Underwhelming.
Yes, but as has been pointed out up-thread, you're dazed every time the spell inflicts damage on you. Hence putting this metamagic on a spell which damages the target every round is something of a win...
Benefit: You can modify a spell to daze a creature damaged by the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the daze effect. If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect. If the spell effect also causes the creature to become dazed, the duration of this metamagic effect is added to the duration of the spell. A dazing spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level. Spells that do not inflict damage do not benefit from this feat.
The above is the wording for dazing. The meta magic works on creatures damaged by the spell. It doesn't say it must be a spell that deals damage.
Actually it specifically says that in bolded part. If the spell does not inflict damage it cannot have Dazing Spell applied to it.
Let's compare Dazing Fireball to Acid Fog. They'll both slow and damage the opponent in different ways...
Dazing Fireball will do 10d6 damage and daze for 3 rounds on a failed Reflex save, or half damage on a successful save (or none with Evasion).
Acid Fog slows opponents to half speed, obscures vision, causes a -2 attack and damage, prevents ranged weapon attacks, and causes 2d6 damage each round to everyone and everything inside, for 11 rounds. No save.
Dazing Fireball is faster, but potentially less of a problem to opponents. Acid Fog has a lasts longer, has a greater potential for damage, and has no save, but it can be physically escaped from.
YMMV, but I'd prefer the Acid Fog. And, oh, but a Dazing Acid Fog is nasty (as a 9th level spell should be).
And forget a Dazing Scorching Ray. You want a Dazing Acid Arrow instead.
You make a conjuration DD specialist with Dazing Spell very attractive.
I use scorching ray because I'm a Wizard (Evoker)with a 1 level dip into Cross-blooded (Orc/Dragon bloodline) sorcerer for the bloodline arcana. So I'm focusing on evocation spells for the extra damage.
Isn't the number of rounds the target is dazed based on the original level of the spell? AND it's +3? Underwhelming.
If your group can't kill everything within three rounds without them able to take actions, I'd be surprised. Certainly not underwhelming considering you do damage and daze them.
I'm a DM. I see it was a quite powerful. Moreso than spells like hold person or mass suggestion which do no damage.
A level 6 spell slot to fire off a fireball that does something like 55 points of damage to each target and daze them for three rounds is a pretty powerful spell. Considering feats like Spell Perfection, I can fire off a 6th level chain lightning that does 77 points of damage and dazes the targets for 6 rounds at 15th level.
These occurs off failed reflex saves. A save that is fairly weak for many powerful creatures. There is no real defense against Daze. Plenty of creatures are immune to mind-affected effects, stun, and even spells that give resistance or can remove stun or hold effects. What spells remove the dazed effect? heal? That's one of the only spells I see.
Pretty powerful considering how few creatures can resist daze and have high reflex saves.
Get your hands on a Lesser Rod of Persistence too, since they're low-level spells!
Since they are 5th and 6th level slots many people rule (imho correctly) that you would need a normal metamagic rod and not a lesser one.
-James
In this case James you would be wrong. Metamagic rods clearly state that the level of the spell you cast is not changed as you channel the spell through the rod.
Unless you were talking about a spell already buffed by a Metamagic feat then using the Rod of Persistence on it, then yes you would need a normal one because your already augmenting the spell to 5th or 6th lv.
Get your hands on a Lesser Rod of Persistence too, since they're low-level spells!
Since they are 5th and 6th level slots many people rule (imho correctly) that you would need a normal metamagic rod and not a lesser one.
-James
In this case James you would be wrong. Metamagic rods clearly state that the level of the spell you cast is not changed as you channel the spell through the rod.
Unless you were talking about a spell already buffed by a Metamagic feat then using the Rod of Persistence on it, then yes you would need a normal one because your already augmenting the spell to 5th or 6th lv.
Yes, it's already augmented by Dazing Spell.
Gignere, no, Terrible Remorse doesn't do damage. It causes the creature to damage itself. Similar in result, but important distinction.
Terrible remorse has been hit by errata (rightfully so).
I would not like this metamagic in my campaigns, it seems to get boring really fast and having no real defense against it seems to make it particulary powerful.
If you think your party might cry foul against it when the GM uses this feat on NPCs you might want to reconsider taking it, might be best to discuss this feat with your GM first instead of springing it on him.
I like it. Makes evocation good..
Terrible remorse has been hit by errata (rightfully so).
I would not like this metamagic in my campaigns, it seems to get boring really fast and having no real defense against it seems to make it particulary powerful.
If you think your party might cry foul against it when the GM uses this feat on NPCs you might want to reconsider taking it, might be best to discuss this feat with your GM first instead of springing it on him.
I'm going to give it a shot. If Dazing Spell makes encounters trivial, we'll house rule it. I've been thinking about making creatures immune to stun also immune to daze. Though I think most of the daze type effects and spells are shorter duration or mind-effecting spells, so they have innate limitations. This is the longest duration daze effect I can think of off the top of my head. I can see Paizo making Dazing Spell a mind-effecting effect.
Don't forget to take the Magical Lineage trait to make the metamagic cost 1 less! (i.e. take Magical Lineage (Fireball) and Dazing Fireball is a 5th level spell.)
...and Spell Perfection to add it onto a spell for free!
Don't forget to take the Magical Lineage trait to make the metamagic cost 1 less! (i.e. take Magical Lineage (Fireball) and Dazing Fireball is a 5th level spell.)
...and Spell Perfection to add it onto a spell for free!
Thanks for the advice. I won't forget.
I love Spell Perfection.
I'm also really liking Spell Specialization. Let's you have a little more firepower at lvl 1 as a human wizard. I like it better than Preferred Spell since I can change the specialized spell as I level. It will also allow me to take advantage of Intensify Spell for a spell that can do up to 20 die of damage at lvl 19 and 20. Very nice feat investment for a wizard blaster.
But Terrible Remorse inflicts damage.
Terrible remorse does not inflict damage upon its target.
Each round, the target must save or deal 1d8 points of damage + its Strength modifier to itself using an item held in its hand or with unarmed attacks."
It compels the target to injury oneself but this is not the same as dealing damage to the target. Charms, dominations and other Enchantments also can lead to the target suffering damage while under their influence and yet they are not spells that deal damage.
I do not feel that it is too powerful a feat. After all the DC does not increase for the spells you base it on, so many will save against it once you reach the levels where you can use it due to the slot level yoou need. Also, the target still does not have a penalty to AC, so those who were hard to hit before remain just as hard to hit - they simply cannot act offensively.
Any spell that removes conditions also can alleviate this problem, so it's easy to counter in the long run (at least in our games NPCs at a certain level do gather information on their PC enemies and start taking precautions ;-))
Reflex is often the weakest save in the game, but many do have an acceptable one, and rings of evasion or class features together with a cloak of resistance can make you pay a lot for that spell you just unleashed without any consequences to the target...
Otherwise there are already many save-or-suck spells targeting fortitude and will (e.g. glitterdust), so the feat does not really change much here.
Even when you have spell perfection and can practically add it for free, you are at least level 15 and your enemies defenses will have improved accordingly, so I do not see an issue here.
Rods might unbalance things a little, especially when you get them too early or too cheaply. But a lesser rod of dazing already costs you 14k, so when you stick to WBL and follow the 25% rule, it won't be before level 10 that you can afford one - a level where saves and defenses of your opponents will already make that strategy fail a lot.
Still, it's a nice feat :-)
Are you talking about spell resistance? Or is it your view the daze effect would recur every round if using Acid Arrow?That's my view, yes. The target is dazed when they take damage from a dazing spell. So, first round, Will save or Dazed for 2 rounds, next round, save or dazed for 2 (more) rounds, and so on.
It's also why a Dazing Acid Fog is so great. Save or dazed for six rounds, meaning another six rounds of 2d6 acid damage, and six more saves or dazed for six more rounds, each. And you aren't getting out of the cloud because hey, you're dazed.
Great idea with the acid arrow, I like it :-) However, I think the rounds are not added every time you fail, but the duration basically is reset and starts anew since the daze effect is not part of the original spell. So to be more specific:
One-time damage spell, such as fireball:
-> Save. If you fail, you are dazed for 3 rounds.
Repeatedly damaging spell, such as acid arrow:
-> Save first round. If you succeed, you can remove the acid arrow effect or just ignore it. If you fail, you are dazed for two rounds.
-> Assuming next round acid arrow still causes damage and you fail your save. You are dazed for another total of 2 rounds, i.e. overlapping with the previous 1 round left from the spell.
The idea is great, especially with something like acid fog. Each also has its own disadvantages, though: try that acid arrow with 5 ogres who start focusing on you after you hit their first buddy - good luck ;-) And the fog spells are dispersed by winds and such, so you can't use them everywhere.
Still, I like the idea :-P
EDIT: Just realized I overlooked something: As long as you have the dazed condition you cannot be dazed again. So as if you fail your save and become dazed, another effect cannot daze you again until the first one has worn off. So for acid arrow that means the next time you can be affected is in the third round.
Don't forget to take the Magical Lineage trait to make the metamagic cost 1 less! (i.e. take Magical Lineage (Fireball) and Dazing Fireball is a 5th level spell.)
...and Spell Perfection to add it onto a spell for free!
Magical lineage has the drawback that you reduce the duration of the daze IMO, since it states:
Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.
So when applied to a fireball, it effectively becomes a 2nd level spell, reducing the daze condition to two rounds. Not bad, but might not be what you want.
I think a dazing flame blade could do nicely, also dazing black tentacles seems quite evil
I think a dazing flame blade could do nicely, also dazing black tentacles seems quite evil
Isnt dazing black tentacles kind of an over-kill?
I think a dazing flame blade could do nicely, also dazing black tentacles seems quite evilIsnt dazing black tentacles kind of an over-kill?
In Pathfinder, nothing is overkill. =D
Let's compare Dazing Fireball to Acid Fog. They'll both slow and damage the opponent in different ways...
I'd probably compare it to Mass Suggestion, another level 6 save-or-lose spell.
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This may be obvious, but while there is no daze immune monsters, there ARE ways to protect oneself from Dazing Spell. It relies on the victim taking damage, so if the victim can prevent the damage in some way it can prevent the dazing effect too. Protection from Elements has never been more important.
If your using 3.5 material, there is a cleric spell in the PHB 2, I think second or third level, either Mark of Judgement or Mark of Doom?
It has no save and no SR check. It lasts your level in rounds and does 1d6 untyped damage to the target every time he makes an attack or casts a spell or takes any action to harm another.
Daze that. Oh yeah.
I could see a magus or other gish use a dazing fire shield. Needs a 7th level slot or a regular rod though, so a bit pricey. Caster can choose between two elements, that's nice, and a save or be dazed for 4 turns whenever they attack the wizard is really nice. Melee summoner could do it with a lesser rod.