Okay, Paizo, you got yourself a sell if you do this kind of "mind-magic". Mark one down for me! Epic Meepo you're great.
EDIT: you'd probably want to change the names a bit... but it's great nonetheless!
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Paizo has not been shy about introducing new mechanics for new classes. Apart from the aforementioned quinggong monk, I can also cite the summoner, the oracle and others to a lesser or greater extent. Hence, I find the James' insistence on slot-based psionics rather puzzling. The notion that the new systems do not involve casting merely creates a false dichotomy - the line that separates special abilities from spells is blurry and artificial.
Don't get me wrong, I like slot-based magic, but I enjoy having mechanical variety and divergence among the classes. Indeed, one of the reasons I did not switch to 4E was the mechanical uniformity of the classes. Ideally, I would like to see every type of magic having its own system - arcane, divine, nature, psionics and possibly others. In practice, faithfulness to D&D legacy means that I am willing to acquiesce to divine and nature magic being rolled into one and using essentially the same mechanics as arcane magic. Psionics, however, does not share that slot-based legacy and thus provides a perfect opportunity to branch out to a different system.
One such possibility is power points, of course, but I am not wedded to the system. Any system that jives well with the flavor of psionics would probably make me happy. It could indeed be a ki-based psionics system that has been suggested as soon as the ki-pool was added to the monk and which, as Epic Meepo has so skillfully demonstrated, does not need a wordy explanation in an adventure path (this also incidently illustrates that a power point system would also not need lengthy explanations to get across the basics in an adventure path). Alternatively, it could be a skills & feats based psionic system (or even a word of power like system) or something entirely novel.
I am not saying I would outright reject a slot-based psionics system - just that I prefer mechanical diversity. If you do go the slot-based route, though, at least make a serious effort to mechanically differentiate psionic casters from existing casters. An idea I have been harboring for some time, for example, is that you could have a spontaneous slot-based system, but use ki points or power points to add metamagic feats and additional effects to spells [there would be fewer spell slots to compensate]. These additional effects would serve to enhance flexibility and add psionic flavor. Perhaps having a sufficient ki point or power point reserve could even enable the manifestation of select powers at will. You get the picture - basically, even if one sticks with the slot-based system, it is possible to differentiate it somewhat.
I must also say that it is unfortunate that the existing magic system already covers practically all bases. I would have liked to see a greater separation between arcane, nature, divine and psionic systems also in terms of what they can accomplish, but alas, that boat has mostly sailed in the Pathfinder RPG.
James, while influential, is still only one of the voices at Paizo. When Paizo does decide to do psionics, Lisa, Sean, Jason, Erik, and others will have to sit down in a meeting and decide what approach to take. What comes out of that could be just about anything.
Although part of what James says makes a lot of sense. There is no need for a "Psionic Resistance" stat which is functionally identical to "Spell Resistance". There is no need to call them psionic-like abilities when they are functionally identical to spell-like abilities.
I suspect when they do get around to it, they will either make psionics ki based, or do some sort of spontaneous caster like the oracle or sorcerer.
Of course, the soonest a new topic like this would come out is 2013, since we know the RPG schedule for 2012. (Ok, Bestiary 4 hasn't officially been announced. But I'd say it is a good bet. Either that or an NPC compendium.)
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From what James has said in the past, I read it as this:
1) They don't want to be tied into the 3.5 psionics system for adventure paths because they want adventure paths to be workable with the bare minimum of core material only. You really can't use the 3.5 system without having the supplement to hand.
You won't be able to use the new Pathfinder psionics without having the Pathfinder Psionic supplement, so I don't see what your point is.
You won't be able to use the new Pathfinder psionics without having the Pathfinder Psionic supplement, so I don't see what your point is.From what James has said in the past, I read it as this:
1) They don't want to be tied into the 3.5 psionics system for adventure paths because they want adventure paths to be workable with the bare minimum of core material only. You really can't use the 3.5 system without having the supplement to hand.
Not to mention that it has been proven that the psionic rules (not the power or class descriptions but the alternate mechanics) can easily fit in <2 pages.
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James, while influential, is still only one of the voices at Paizo. When Paizo does decide to do psionics, Lisa, Sean, Jason, Erik, and others will have to sit down in a meeting and decide what approach to take. What comes out of that could be just about anything.
Although part of what James says makes a lot of sense. There is no need for a "Psionic Resistance" stat which is functionally identical to "Spell Resistance". There is no need to call them psionic-like abilities when they are functionally identical to spell-like abilities.
I suspect when they do get around to it, they will either make psionics ki based, or do some sort of spontaneous caster like the oracle or sorcerer.
Of course, the soonest a new topic like this would come out is 2013, since we know the RPG schedule for 2012. (Ok, Bestiary 4 hasn't officially been announced. But I'd say it is a good bet. Either that or an NPC compendium.)
Would it distress or elate you to find out that I'm probably the one who's most PRO psionics at Paizo?
Would it distress or elate you to find out that I'm probably the one who's most PRO psionics at Paizo?
Neither! It simply means you need to hire me. Sight unseen. Completely lacking in any credentials at all. :)
Actually, it's interesting that you're the one that likes psionics the most (or dislike it the least?) since you don't like the PP system. I'm guessing you like the flavor but not the previous incarnation?
Also, again, it's not just the PP system that I love about it, though I do enjoy it, but I'd love to see a non-Vancian style of magic be applied - the use of ki to create spell-like effects is a great idea, I'd say.
Also, I'd like to make an addendum to my previous posts: while I love the Ezren write-up above, it needs tweaking - a lot. But it's still quite a cool proof-of-concept idea.
Why not publish a book of sci fi? with Psionics and Technology would be a great supplement things that you would have to meet in Numeria from Golarion, like Mechas, Star ships, Androids, Numerian Technology and aliens and of course Psionics
the coolest of Psionics is the power point system which the powers can be increased and you can use your power points on other abilities
Would it distress or elate you to find out that I'm probably the one who's most PRO psionics at Paizo?
Makes me pretty happy really
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Would it distress or elate you to find out that I'm probably the one who's most PRO psionics at Paizo?James, while influential, is still only one of the voices at Paizo. When Paizo does decide to do psionics, Lisa, Sean, Jason, Erik, and others will have to sit down in a meeting and decide what approach to take. What comes out of that could be just about anything.
Although part of what James says makes a lot of sense. There is no need for a "Psionic Resistance" stat which is functionally identical to "Spell Resistance". There is no need to call them psionic-like abilities when they are functionally identical to spell-like abilities.
I suspect when they do get around to it, they will either make psionics ki based, or do some sort of spontaneous caster like the oracle or sorcerer.
Of course, the soonest a new topic like this would come out is 2013, since we know the RPG schedule for 2012. (Ok, Bestiary 4 hasn't officially been announced. But I'd say it is a good bet. Either that or an NPC compendium.)
Didn't the one who was more pro-Psionics leave/get fired?
James, while influential, is still only one of the voices at Paizo. When Paizo does decide to do psionics, Lisa, Sean, Jason, Erik, and others will have to sit down in a meeting and decide what approach to take. What comes out of that could be just about anything.Would it distress or elate you to find out that I'm probably the one who's most PRO psionics at Paizo?
It doesn't bother me either way. Personally, I'd rather you did the Mythic Adventures book first. But while I like psionics, and I don't mind power points, I don't think the two need to be wed. I know others don't particularly share my opinion though.
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Didn't the one who was more pro-Psionics leave/get fired?Would it distress or elate you to find out that I'm probably the one who's most PRO psionics at Paizo?James, while influential, is still only one of the voices at Paizo. When Paizo does decide to do psionics, Lisa, Sean, Jason, Erik, and others will have to sit down in a meeting and decide what approach to take. What comes out of that could be just about anything.
Although part of what James says makes a lot of sense. There is no need for a "Psionic Resistance" stat which is functionally identical to "Spell Resistance". There is no need to call them psionic-like abilities when they are functionally identical to spell-like abilities.
I suspect when they do get around to it, they will either make psionics ki based, or do some sort of spontaneous caster like the oracle or sorcerer.
Of course, the soonest a new topic like this would come out is 2013, since we know the RPG schedule for 2012. (Ok, Bestiary 4 hasn't officially been announced. But I'd say it is a good bet. Either that or an NPC compendium.)
Umm... not that I'm aware of.
Although part of what James says makes a lot of sense. There is no need for a "Psionic Resistance" stat which is functionally identical to "Spell Resistance". There is no need to call them psionic-like abilities when they are functionally identical to spell-like abilities.
It was misleading in 3.5 psionics, where it was included to easily transfer from the default 'psionics/magic transparency' to a 'psionics is different' mode if people wanted it.
You won't be able to use the new Pathfinder psionics without having the Pathfinder Psionic supplement, so I don't see what your point is.
Sorry, I didn't explain that well:
When you release a new class, like for example the Witch, Paizo can and do include them in new APs, but they do so by describing in the stat block the new features that are non-core. Hence the witch would not need a lot of stating, because they are a Vancian caster using a familiar like a spell-book with a few extra powers and spells needing to be described.
Psionics with the power-point system is harder to describe, and the space in the supplements is limited for these purposes. The existing power point system is a pain in this respect if you included a psionic character in an AP - you have to describe the power point system and how it works, and there are many powers which do not work the way that spells work and have to be described too. That takes up space which Paizo would rather use to add background material or more adventure.
Now personally I don't think this is impossible, and could well be worthwhile if you had a really psionics-heavy adventure and/or teamed up with another company (like DSP) to produce said adventure, but others can and do disagree. Hence the desire for a 'psionics' system that relies on mechanics that already exist or else are quick and easy to describe with regular spell-effects. One reason why there may never be a Paizo 'psionics' system but may instead be a 'Magic of Vudra' system ...
Well you wanted NPCs to have to undergo the same rules as PCs so...this is where it ends up as, I guess? Yeah, if you make the rules this tight, they turn into a straightjacket.
The existing power point system is a pain in this respect if you included a psionic character in an AP - you have to describe the power point system and how it works, and there are many powers which do not work the way that spells work and have to be described too.
I've heard this a lot but never been convinced by i. Do you remember the squid-headed critters whose name rhymes with "Irrithid"? There was a vanilla 3.5 version that used spell-like abilities and a psionic rules version with proper psionic abilities. Problem solved. Just include a footnote that says you have the option to use the psionic version if you feel like it.
And James, as much as I love the work you've done (and I do, that's genuine); in light of your past posts it makes me very sad to hear that you may be the psionics vanguard at Paizo. =/
I liked the PP system more than the flavor text of psionics, frankly. I'd play any kind of caster if the casting system resembled a mana pool with spontaneous casting.
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The existing power point system is a pain in this respect if you included a psionic character in an AP - you have to describe the power point system and how it works, and there are many powers which do not work the way that spells work and have to be described too.I've heard this a lot but never been convinced by i. Do you remember the squid-headed critters whose name rhymes with "Irrithid"? There was a vanilla 3.5 version that used spell-like abilities and a psionic rules version with proper psionic abilities. Problem solved. Just include a footnote that says you have the option to use the psionic version if you feel like it.
And James, as much as I love the work you've done (and I do, that's genuine); in light of your past posts it makes me very sad to hear that you may be the psionics vanguard at Paizo. =/
I liked the PP system more than the flavor text of psionics, frankly. I'd play any kind of caster if the casting system resembled a mana pool with spontaneous casting.
Nothing stops you from lifting the spell points system from 3.5's Unearthed Arcana or the Mana system from Everquest d20. They don't have the power point boosting that Psionics does but they are a mana pool system. Everquest's is especially good as you're limited to 8 spells known at any one time (it takes an hour to switch up the list) so spell prep is both tactical and fluid.
Also, I thought Mike McArtor was very pro-Psionics. I also thought SKR was way more pro-Psionic than you (I know he's still there =p)
I think people are still confusing pro psionics with pro powerpoint. Nothing about psionics screams power point is a must. Most game systems do not use a whole new system for psionics nor do is it a law psionics can only be done with a power point system.
I myself an pro psionics but not pro power point system. It is far from time a system that will forever limit psioncs to the back burner be dropped and something that can be used to make it more common in adventurers and such be used.
3.5 was not psionic powers any more then vacain wizards are, it was just a new casting system with new casters. Nothing other then the over use of new age crystals even remotely screamed "mind powers" any more the the standard wizard does.
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I don't know if this has any impact on discussion about psionics, but in my games all spontaneous casters use spell points instead of spell slots. The formula for calculating spell points is: Spell Level = number of Spell Points (so, 3rd level spell equals 3 spell points). The sorcerer is now a bit more versatile, but not in the least overpowered. I don't know if this helps, but there it is...
Why not publish a book of sci fi?
Yes indeed. I would totally love to play a scifi adventure using the Pathfinder rules.
Ki points, Rage Rounds, Arcane Pool, all three currently describe various minor to major boosting effects (even some spell-likes) that if expanded would likely work well as Pathfinder Psy (Psi) rules. But that's basically reiterating the points already made.
The core aspect of Power Points and Powers in 3.5 XPH is that you can effectively buy the caster level / spell level of the effect you want. On a broad brush you could assign a number of "spell-like abilities know" with a caster level equal to the spell level base, with each X of "Points" spent increasing that caster or spell level. Most could be drawn form existing core spells.
For a class based on "Psi" points you have the same kinds of Ki/Rage/Arcana "talents" alongside a selection of "Spell-likes" known.
@nightflier
You may wish to check out the 3.5 Spell Point rules which are basically Spell Point cost = (Spell Level * 2) - 1. Convert slots to point values and sum to get spell points at a give class level.
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I think people are still confusing pro psionics with pro powerpoint. Nothing about psionics screams power point is a must. Most game systems do not use a whole new system for psionics nor do is it a law psionics can only be done with a power point system.
I myself an pro psionics but not pro power point system. It is far from time a system that will forever limit psioncs to the back burner be dropped and something that can be used to make it more common in adventurers and such be used.
3.5 was not psionic powers any more then vacain wizards are, it was just a new casting system with new casters. Nothing other then the over use of new age crystals even remotely screamed "mind powers" any more the the standard wizard does.
Now you are against PowerPoint? What's next, Excel? Access? WORD?!!!
This reply brought to you by Microsoft.
The existing power point system is a pain in this respect if you included a psionic character in an AP - you have to describe the power point system and how it works, and there are many powers which do not work the way that spells work and have to be described too.I've heard this a lot but never been convinced by i. Do you remember the squid-headed critters whose name rhymes with "Irrithid"? There was a vanilla 3.5 version that used spell-like abilities and a psionic rules version with proper psionic abilities. Problem solved. Just include a footnote that says you have the option to use the psionic version if you feel like it.
I can't say I disagree myself, but that is the argument as given to me despite the best efforts to explain how the PP system works.
I liked the PP system more than the flavor text of psionics, frankly. I'd play any kind of caster if the casting system resembled a mana pool with spontaneous casting.
... and this really answers this:
I think people are still confusing pro psionics with pro powerpoint. Nothing about psionics screams power point is a must. Most game systems do not use a whole new system for psionics nor do is it a law psionics can only be done with a power point system.
... the Law of Backward Compatibility, and the Law of Fandom.
The Law of Backward Compatibility doth say: Thou shalt be able to upgrade thy 3.5 character to Paizo's Pathfinder without loss of class abilities and features you are familiar with.
The Law of Fandom doth say: If thou dick with the things the fans like and take them away, yea shall the fans be annoyed and shall hate thee for thine actions and refuse to buy the supplement.
In other words, the point of a Paizo psionics system is to please those using 3.5 psionics and wanting it in Pathfinder (lets face it, those NOT liking the 3.5 system basically don't care or don't want it anywhere near Pathfinder). Most of them seem to love the PP system, so if you take it away your supplement is made of fail before you even start.
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In other words, the point of a Paizo psionics system is to please those using 3.5 psionics and wanting it in Pathfinder (lets face it, those NOT liking the 3.5 system basically don't care or don't want it anywhere near Pathfinder). Most of...
I think the way forward there is to, somehow, officially recognize DSP's Psionics Unleashed (because lord knows some holdouts won't buy it if it isn't stamped with a Purple Golem) as the path for 3.5 Psionics update. Maybe use some of the less "powery" psionic monsters in an AP or adventure or something. Maybe feature a Souknife mid-tier villain (which would be the least class to pack into an AP). Like Tome of Horros, that would put some legitimacy behind DSP as the "3.5 to Pathfinder" Psionics guys and free Paizo to create a "Psy Ψ" system instead.
The only question would be, could a it be built to interact with (but not replicate) the old 3.5 style system. LIkely not.
For those of you that are "pro psionic" but not "pro power point" please take the time to look at the spell slot based version we have been working on.
I am one of those people and finally decided to write it myself. It's been a long haul and we have added some lore and fun stuff to it.
Basically, we wrote up a ki powered slot-based psionic system. We're still balancing and rewriting stuff, but have been getting some positive feedback.
A bulk of the work left to be done (outside of more balancing) involves completing the lore for introducing psionics and fleshing out archetypes for each class. Oh, and a full front-to-back edit. I can't spell to save my life (unless I roll a 20).
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In other words, the point of a Paizo psionics system is to please those using 3.5 psionics and wanting it in Pathfinder (lets face it, those NOT liking the 3.5 system basically don't care or don't want it anywhere near Pathfinder).
No. Some people like psionics, want to see Paizo make books dealing with it, but don't care for the psionic system in 3.5.
Being a fan of psionics does not mean one has to love 3.5 psionics. Sorry.
If Paizo making new classes with new names, new backgrounds, and unique sets of abilities, then that neither breaks the "Law of Backward Compatibility" you post (because they are new classes and conversions are available through other avenues) or the "Law of Fandom" you also mention (because they are taking nothing away, all they are doing is adding to the suite of abilities).
If those psionic "fans" are doing are refusing to purchase any mental magic system that doesn't use the 3.5 psionic system as the base, I don't think there is any realistic way to deal with those customers.
I think the way forward there is to, somehow, officially recognize DSP's Psionics Unleashed (because lord knows some holdouts won't buy it if it isn't stamped with a Purple Golem) as the path for 3.5 Psionics update. Maybe use some of the less "powery" psionic monsters in an AP or adventure or something. Maybe feature a Souknife mid-tier villain (which would be the least class to pack into an AP).
Do you mean use one of the psionic monsters from DSP specifically, or a psionic monster in general? There have been a significant number of psionic monsters that have made it into Paizo's core rule books. The neothelid is a solid psionic monster. Even though it uses spell like abilities instead of psionic counterparts, it does retain the ability to use a version of mind thrust, psychic crush, and trace teleport. One has even been included in an adventure path.
As for using Dreamscarred Press's psionic monsters, all the ones I see are either equipped with special attacks that only injure psionic characters or have a significant number of powers as psionic abilities. If they were to be included in an AP, I can only imagine their conversion would end up with them looking like the neothelid, crysmal, and intellect devourer do. With a number of similarly themed spells and possibly some powers completely spelled out as special abilities of the creature. If that happened, I doubt that people would still wouldn't buy it if they weren't going to anyway. I suspect that they would get about as much attention as the thaumaturge (another class used in an Adventure Path). Some people might look it up, but overall it isn't going to grant the recognition that I think people are looking for.
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Hey James may I bend your ear?
Have you all ever thought of doing Psionics as a variant Sorcerer?
I actually wish that the original 3rd edition sorcerer was called the psionicist. Now, though, the sorcerer's her own thing, and I'd rather not just make the "psionicist" into a variant sorcerer. That ship has sailed, in other words.
I actually wish that the original 3rd edition sorcerer was called the psionicist. Now, though, the sorcerer's her own thing, and I'd rather not just make the "psionicist" into a variant sorcerer. That ship has sailed, in other words.Hey James may I bend your ear?
Have you all ever thought of doing Psionics as a variant Sorcerer?
What about a sci fi book? something is mentioned in Numerian Technology from Inner Sea World
for me would be great a sci fi book that includes Psionics and Technology
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I actually wish that the original 3rd edition sorcerer was called the psionicist. Now, though, the sorcerer's her own thing, and I'd rather not just make the "psionicist" into a variant sorcerer. That ship has sailed, in other words.Hey James may I bend your ear?
Have you all ever thought of doing Psionics as a variant Sorcerer?
What about a sci fi book? something is mentioned in Numerian Technology from Inner Sea World
for me would be great a sci fi book that includes Psionics and Technology
Honestly... chances of us doing a sci-fi RPG or supplement or whatever (that might INCLUDE as part of it rules for psychic magic) are significantly greater, I would wager, than us doing a Psionics book.
That said, chances of us doing a sci-fi RPG or supplement or whatever are very very slim. I'd love to do one, though.
This isn't a call out, or fanboy question. Purely curious right now. Has Paizo considered just adopting Psionics Unleashed? This question would also apply to any other subsystem that may come out later, as in Epic Level Play.
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This isn't a call out, or fanboy question. Purely curious right now. Has Paizo considered just adopting Psionics Unleashed? This question would also apply to any other subsystem that may come out later, as in Epic Level Play.
If and when we decide to do something like an Adventure Path that includes psionic stuff, we'll make the decision then. But that said... I'm not a fan of power points, whether they be 3.5 or Dreamscarred or whatever. If we were considering doing a psionic-enabled product like an AP or a Vudra campaign book or something like that, checking out Dreamscared's take on it would probably be the 1st thing I did... but convincing me that the power point system has been "redeemed" would take a LOT of work.
It's only partially the fact that the ability to nova was disruptive and not in keeping with the way the game was built to be played. It's also to do with the fact that learning an entirely new set of rules to, in the end, zap things from afar with supernatural stuff or control their minds with supernatural stuff or whatever is kind of not what I'm into, since we already have those rules with magic in the game. Divine magic and arcane magic both fundamentally use the same system. Why can't psychic magic?
The implications of introducing an entirely new complex rules system for new types of characters into the PFS org play, frankly, gives me blood nightmares of catastrophic proportions.
Anyway... it's all academic since I don't foresee us doing a psionic type product for at least a few years anyway.
Honestly... chances of us doing a sci-fi RPG or supplement or whatever (that might INCLUDE as part of it rules for psychic magic) are significantly greater, I would wager, than us doing a Psionics book.
Eagerly awaiting the announcement of STARFINDER, Paizo Publishing's new Sci-Fi RPG, including laser guns, spaceships and psionics, OH MY! Dont miss out on the action, the adventure, and most importantly, the alien romance. Coming soon to a FLGS near you. ;)
... but convincing me that the power point system has been "redeemed" would take a LOT of work.
What, may I ask, do you consider needs redeeming about it? I'm not taking umbrage, BTW, I'm just curious to know. The whole issue has been hashed around a long time on the DSP boards, so it would be interesting to hear your take on it.
This isn't a call out, or fanboy question. Purely curious right now. Has Paizo considered just adopting Psionics Unleashed? This question would also apply to any other subsystem that may come out later, as in Epic Level Play.If and when we decide to do something like an Adventure Path that includes psionic stuff, we'll make the decision then.
That's about what I expected, which is a good thing. I was curious mainly if such a circumstance came up (3pp having a ruleset available that seemed appropriate to all concerned) if you would take full advantage of OGL to showcase such rules in a Paizo product.
To continue advocating the devil, I don't understand the premise of "how the game is SUPPOSED to be played". Matter of opinion.
Personally, I would like to see all casters able to nova. Last ditch attempt to prevent TPK and all that.
I can see that, the market hasn't been very receptive to non-licensed SF games since the decline of Traveller. And the licensed ones aren't doing that well.That said, chances of us doing a sci-fi RPG or supplement or whatever are very very slim. I'd love to do one, though.
Alternity still has a pretty active fan base, and that one went out of publication when Wizards picked up TSR over a decade ago!
I think there's demand out there for a sci-fi RPG that's done well. By "done well" I mean more than just a sourcebook.
This isn't a call out, or fanboy question. Purely curious right now. Has Paizo considered just adopting Psionics Unleashed? This question would also apply to any other subsystem that may come out later, as in Epic Level Play.If and when we decide to do something like an Adventure Path that includes psionic stuff, we'll make the decision then. But that said... I'm not a fan of power points, whether they be 3.5 or Dreamscarred or whatever. If we were considering doing a psionic-enabled product like an AP or a Vudra campaign book or something like that, checking out Dreamscared's take on it would probably be the 1st thing I did... but convincing me that the power point system has been "redeemed" would take a LOT of work.
It's only partially the fact that the ability to nova was disruptive and not in keeping with the way the game was built to be played. It's also to do with the fact that learning an entirely new set of rules to, in the end, zap things from afar with supernatural stuff or control their minds with supernatural stuff or whatever is kind of not what I'm into, since we already have those rules with magic in the game. Divine magic and arcane magic both fundamentally use the same system. Why can't psychic magic?
The implications of introducing an entirely new complex rules system for new types of characters into the PFS org play, frankly, gives me blood nightmares of catastrophic proportions.
Anyway... it's all academic since I don't foresee us doing a psionic type product for at least a few years anyway.
Honestly, I dont want paizo doing such a product. The need would have to be REALLY great to make it worth it at all. As it stands, paizo would have to cut into the established market of dreamscared's material, and in doing so divide an already small market even smaller with those who like psionics and dont like dreamscarred's system. That book is going to have to be special kinds of awesome to sell well enough to be worth the investment of creating it, and the potential negative impact it would have on pfs and the paizo product line as a whole.
+1' to Blazej. I am very pro-psionics, but I do not care for the point system at all. I agree with James, I would like something that works with the core rules that is not a whole new casting system. Most the iconic psionic powers are in the game as spells.
is it the point system that all of you don't like or just the novaing aspect of it? if that aspect was removed would power points be so bad?
The 3.5 system is not more "mental powers" then the core casting system. It is simply an alt casting system with an alt wizard. The core system can have the flavor just as well as the alt system 3.5 used.
I would be fine with an sorc archetype, a ki based spell like ability take or something of the like. You simply do not need to have a point based system to have psionics.Nor do you need new power write up when the core spells already cover mental powers.
I am very pro psionics but as long as it is a whole new system that you must have a whole new book just to use and does not work like every other type of magic in the game (with the core rules) it will never be anything more then an add on system that is never used.
And damn it I want it used.
+1' to Blazej. I am very pro-psionics, but I do not care for the point system at all. I agree with James, I would like something that works with the core rules that is not a whole new casting system. Most the iconic psionic powers are in the game as spells.
EXACTLY! This is what started us on the road to writing our version of psionics over a decade ago. We've changed a lot of the psionic powers to match the existing spells. All the powers were converted to spells (included adding a spell school) and moved the discipline to the descriptor.
The only real thing we tried to do was make them feel a little different (the whole lure of psionics). Using Ki helped meet that need and by forcing spellcasters to rely on both Con (power source) and Wis/Cha (power use) seemed to balance it out a little.
I see psionic magic as being body powered (not mind powered); hence the focus on Ki. Divine spells are deity powered and arcane spells are materially powered. All require a solid wisdom, intelligence or charisma to utilize that power.
It's not perfect by any means, but we are having a blast writing it and hope someone else gets enjoyment out of our work.
I read this forum everyday looking for what people generally loved or hated about 3.5 psionics and hope I can find a middle ground.
Mathmatically, the psion we designed can cast a few more spells per day than the 3.5 psion because of the Conversion ability (fluid spell slots). Their ability to "nova" is somewhat curtailed (more to come I think).
For example, the Energy Ball spell can be one of 4 energy types, it is level 4, and has a base of 7d6 points of damage. A psion must spend 2 Ki points (max points = 1/2 psion level) to increase that damage by 1d6 (a Kineticist only spends 1 Ki point per d6). The next revision may have a cap of +5d6.
Most spell damage does not scale with level, only by spending points or using higher level spells. It seems to balance out. Sometimes a psion can out damage a sorcerer, but they can't do it all the time. The psion is just much more flexible (multi-utility spells, power consolidation, etc.).
We also are trying to build a science behind psionics. It's being derived from a primal source of power, not a future source. The elves of our world enjoyed a full psychic connection to their creator until they broke it. Psionics is the remnants of that connection.
I know that I can't please both sides and am really changing a lot from the SRD (some may say I bastardized it). My goal is to help some of you find a psionics system that is easy to use and fun to roleplay.
TL;DR: I feel you pain and am trying to help. Some will love it, others will hate it.
I can see that, the market hasn't been very receptive to non-licensed SF games since the decline of Traveller. And the licensed ones aren't doing that well.
I don't think Traveller was ever really that strong. It was early in the hobby, so selling a few thousand books was decent. But nothing compared to a million red boxes.
Alternity still has a pretty active fan base, and that one went out of publication when Wizards picked up TSR over a decade ago!
I think there's demand out there for a sci-fi RPG that's done well. By "done well" I mean more than just a sourcebook.
Pics or it didn't happen. Seriously, I'm the only person I've ever met that owns the Alternity book. I've met others who still play Traveller. Of course, the beauty of the internet is no matter how small your fan-base is, you can find some corner to congregate in.
Eclipse Phase is my new favorite SF setting, but I will admit I'm not as fond of the system. The system isn't bad, but it seems overly fiddly. The book is released Creative Commons, so you can legally download the torrent if you want to check it out. And if you like hard SF, Eclipse Phase is well worth checking out.
It is hard to tell if sci-fi RPGs don't do well, or if any game that isn't D&D doesn't do as well. Of course, I think the #3 brand right now, behind Pathfinder and D&D, is the 40k line of RPG books. Although 40k is more space fantasy than SF.
Then again, a Pathfinder SF game would probably end up more Space Opera than hard SF.
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... but convincing me that the power point system has been "redeemed" would take a LOT of work.What, may I ask, do you consider needs redeeming about it? I'm not taking umbrage, BTW, I'm just curious to know. The whole issue has been hashed around a long time on the DSP boards, so it would be interesting to hear your take on it.
I have no idea other than just transforming it into the Vancian model of spellcasting. If I knew how to redeem the power point system so that it's as easy to use as the Vancian system everyone who already plays Pathfinder knows how to use AND that worked well with the game's philosophy that it's not good to use up all of your resources all at once in the first encounter in a day, I would have done it long ago.
It really comes down to the fact that I just don't like power points for spells but I love the concept and flavor and themes of psionics. I've used the power point system (in its various incarnations) a LOT over the past 3 decades or so, also... my dislike of it is not something that's new, but something that developed over many years of me being tormented by the fact that I love the possibilities of psionics but have always struggled with the rules designers attach to them. It's like psionics creators are afraid of embracing rules that already work. It doesn't make sense to me... UNLESS you were to also change the way how all 13 or so current spellcasting classes work.
What I want: All spellcasting (divine, arcane, and psychic) classes to use the same system, be it Vancian or power point or whatever... as long as they all work the same way.
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Anyway... I believe I've pretty much stated my position on the matter, and I'm not looking to spend excessive amounts of time debating it at this point. A psionics book is a LONG way in Paizo's future still... if it's even IN Paizo's future... and I've got a lot of other messageboard threads to check.
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To be honest, soulknife is the only 3.5 psionic class that entered the play in my games. I love the jedi-like feel of the class. Everything else can be done with refluffing the sorcerer and wizard, and that's what I did when I needed psions in my game.
But, novaing was never a problem, I must admit. In my games, sorcerers use spell points, and the players were always careful to conserve their power, because they were never sure what will they encounter.
I don't think Traveller was ever really that strong. It was early in the hobby, so selling a few thousand books was decent.
Well, yes, I guess you can say selling 248,585 copies of the core rules is "a few thousand", if you like. (That's the combined sales of Basic Traveller, Basic Traveller revised, The Traveller Book, Deluxe Traveller, and Starter Traveller, all of which were variously packaged forms of Books 1, 2, and 3.)
Well, yes, I guess you can say selling 248,585 copies of the core rules is "a few thousand", if you like. (That's the combined sales of Basic Traveller, Basic Traveller revised, The Traveller Book, Deluxe Traveller, and Starter Traveller, all of which were variously packaged forms of Books 1, 2, and 3.)
There were also 2 computer games, although I don't know that they sold well.