Will Paizo ever make a Psionics book?


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I was wondering if Paizo has made an official statement as to whether or not they will release a book that incorporates psionics. I am aware of Psionics Unleashed, but I find it to be horribly unbalanced, and have much higher standards for Pathfinder. I'm amazed that we have ninjas and gunslingers and samurai but still no wilder.


There's this post from 10 months ago.


Leonal wrote:
There's this post from 10 months ago.

Thanks!

Has anything newer been said?


Darth Uchiha wrote:
I was wondering if Paizo has made an official statement as to whether or not they will release a book that incorporates psionics. I am aware of Psionics Unleashed, but I find it to be horribly unbalanced, and have much higher standards for Pathfinder. I'm amazed that we have ninjas and gunslingers and samurai but still no wilder.

I'm a bit curious. What do you find horribly unbalanced in the Dreamscarred version?

Silver Crusade

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I am not aware of anything being said.

I think Darth Uchila, that you are going to find Psionics to be as much of a divisive issue, as Guns are.

There is a sizable chunk of psionics fans that like the 3.5 system, and by extension dream scarred press's Psionics Unleashed.

You also have a sizable group of people who wont touch psionics because it feels too Sci fi.
Also lots of people wont touch psionics because they dislike the "tacked on" third magical points based system".

So there is a bit of an impasse. If you make a book that is much closer to the vanican spell casting system...others might pick it up, but a sizable chunk of the psionics fans won't touch it with a ten-foot pole because it isn't backwards compatible, nor has the mechanics of the 3.5 system.

I think as James Jacobs suggested, they don't want to make a book that nobody wants.

So its been pushed into the future.

Ninjas and Samurai's and gunslingers were published in the ultimate combat. I suspect, the first two character classes, and the katanas, and marital arts styles etc, were put in to help support their current adventure path, the Jade Regent. I suspect the Gunslingers and Guns were published to help support their next adventure path...one that is about Pirates.

Well we shall see what Paizo does.


Ashiel wrote:
Darth Uchiha wrote:
I was wondering if Paizo has made an official statement as to whether or not they will release a book that incorporates psionics. I am aware of Psionics Unleashed, but I find it to be horribly unbalanced, and have much higher standards for Pathfinder. I'm amazed that we have ninjas and gunslingers and samurai but still no wilder.
I'm a bit curious. What do you find horribly unbalanced in the Dreamscarred version?

Me too.

I think PU is pretty well done.


ElyasRavenwood wrote:
Ninjas and Samurai's and gunslingers were published in the ultimate combat. I suspect, the first two character classes, and the katanas, and marital arts styles etc, were put in to help support their current adventure path, the Jade Regent. I suspect the Gunslingers and Guns were published to help support their next adventure path...one that is about Pirates.

Thanks for sharing your insight! I was not aware of this.

I really didn't want to derail this thread by explaining all the broken things in Psionics Unleashed, and still don't want to put much effort into compiling a list, but off the top of my head, Psychic Crush, Barren Mind, and Psychofeedback were all taken from elegant 3.5 powers and bastardized into horribly broken powers. In my opinion, Dreamscarred Press's book is so bad that simply using the 3.5 version of all the powers is far better than using their backwards "updates."


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I know I'm actually very surprised. I admit I haven't read entirely through the DCP version, but there's a huge changelog posted on Giant in the Playground, and for the most part it looked like they actually fixed a ton of stuff, fixed some broken issues with the wording of some powers, and generally made it better in most every way. The only thing I saw that I didn't like was having to refocus to change energy types on your energy spells, but I think they did that 'cause Paizo complained that actually having options in your blasting was not good and that they wanted the kineticist to be able to do it without refocusing to make it more of a class feature of that specialization.

Virtually everything else I've seen has been wonderful.

Hence my curiosity.


I seriously dislike the vancian system so much, its like playing a card game with my spells. It does have the upside that is easy to track, but once you use your spell (card) and dont have multiple copies of the same spell, and you REALLY need that spell again, then you are screwed. Thats why I like spontaneous spellcasting more, sure you can't have all the spells kno, but the hassle of managing what you do and don't know or what you have prepared or what you havent prepared its much easy to track. The Psionic system its like having a 2nd bar, a mana bar if you will, its not so hard to track down.

As for the sci-fi theme aversion, I like it, as well as I like medeival fantasy, to each their own.


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Darth Uchiha wrote:
ElyasRavenwood wrote:
Ninjas and Samurai's and gunslingers were published in the ultimate combat. I suspect, the first two character classes, and the katanas, and marital arts styles etc, were put in to help support their current adventure path, the Jade Regent. I suspect the Gunslingers and Guns were published to help support their next adventure path...one that is about Pirates.

Thanks for sharing your insight! I was not aware of this.

I really didn't want to derail this thread by explaining all the broken things in Psionics Unleashed, and still don't want to put much effort into compiling a list, but off the top of my head, Psychic Crush, Barren Mind, and Psychofeedback were all taken from elegant 3.5 powers and bastardized into horribly broken powers. In my opinion, Dreamscarred Press's book is so bad that simply using the 3.5 version of all the powers is far better than using their backwards "updates."

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Exactly what makes Psychic Crush, a short-range, mind-affecting, +4 to the saving throw, which allows spell/power resistance, and is 5th level (the same level as stuff like baleful polymorph, and a level after the similar phantasmal killer in core)? It doesn't even kill them outright, is completely useless versus undead, constructs, and anyone with mind-blank or similar, and deals poor damage if they make the save.

Psychofeedback I can understand as a concern. The fact it's not mentioned as ability burn anymore makes it somewhat concerning, but even still I'm not sure it's really that amazing. It's an egoist power or a high level psychic warrior power. Likewise, it can be dispelled, and then you just inflicted craploads of ability damage on yourself for absolutely nothing.

Barred Mind meet Mind Blank.


Psionics Unleashed is a great successor to 3.x psionics, IMO. If you're looking for an alternative, check out The Psychic Handbook from Green Ronin.


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Nemitri wrote:

I seriously dislike the vancian system so much, its like playing a card game with my spells. It does have the upside that is easy to track, but once you use your spell (card) and dont have multiple copies of the same spell, and you REALLY need that spell again, then you are screwed. Thats why I like spontaneous spellcasting more, sure you can't have all the spells kno, but the hassle of managing what you do and don't know or what you have prepared or what you havent prepared its much easy to track. The Psionic system its like having a 2nd bar, a mana bar if you will, its not so hard to track down.

As for the sci-fi theme aversion, I like it, as well as I like medeival fantasy, to each their own.

On the subject of sci-fi themes, wizards are sci-fi. They build giant robots, play with chemistry sets, preform mathematical equations, and use various types of ingredients like sulfur and methane to produce fireballs when charged with supernatural energies.

Psionic characters? They meditate and focus their wills to shape the world around them. They use magic stones as tools for working their powers and storing the energies inside crystals, which have been a part of esoteric lore for centuries.

I know which one sounds more sci-fi to me, and it's probably the guy playing with his chemistry set, making fire out of bat poo, and building giant iron robots.


Ashiel wrote:

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Exactly what makes Psychic Crush, a short-range, mind-affecting, +4 to the saving throw, which allows spell/power resistance, and is 5th level (the same level as stuff like baleful polymorph, and a level after the similar phantasmal killer in core)? It doesn't even kill them outright, is completely useless versus undead, constructs, and anyone with mind-blank or similar, and deals poor damage if they make the save.

Psychofeedback I can understand as a concern. The fact it's not mentioned as ability burn anymore makes it somewhat concerning, but even still I'm not sure it's really that amazing. It's an egoist power or a high level psychic warrior power. Likewise, it can be dispelled, and then you just inflicted craploads of ability damage on yourself for absolutely nothing.

Barred...

You must not have read Barred Mind very closely! It's SO SO SO SOOOO much better than Mind Blank that they're not even in the same league! Do you honestly think a psion should be able to give out something FAR stronger than the ninja's level 20 ability just because they can cast Barred Mind and have a scroll of greater invisibility? A single spell that stops an entire school of magic and makes invisibility horribly broken?

Phantasmal killer requires two saves instead of just one. The difference between killing them outright and reducing their hp to one is negligible in most scenarios. Spell resistance is irrelevant when you can take two feats and expend psionic focus to gain a +8 boost on your caster-level check.

I think that the first time that you see a wilder use Temporal Acceleration to cast Psychofeedback and then dump 30+ points into Str to kill the BBEG in a single round, you'll change your mind.

This kind of debate is exactly why I didn't want to post specifics here. I was hoping for a discussion about the future of psionics for Pathfinder, not a debate about things like if it's fair for a single power to grant immunity to an entire school of magic. If you still can't see how horribly broken my examples are, I don't think there's anything I can say that would convince you otherwise and I would like to refrain from continuing this debate, but personally, the brokenness of powers such as Barred Mind and Psychofeedback is painfully clear.

I can't put any faith in a book that would include such obviously overpowered powers.


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Dude, Mind Blank and Barred Mind are identical in their effects. What makes Barred Mind better, other than it mentions the psionic versions of the same stuff that Mind Blank blocks (and it blocks Psionics as well due to Transparency)?

Yeah, think about what you just said with Mind Crush. You have to spend two feats and burn your focus on the hope that they will fail the save. Meanwhile, it's also a full level higher than phantasmal killer, but they save as if it was 3 levels lower (notice they get a +4 bonus on the save to avoid it). It's vastly inferior to flesh to stone, and it's arguably worse than baleful polymorph at the same level.

Meanwhile, Temporal Acceleration plus Wilder huh? Well that would require them to be able to manifest 7th level powers, so that's 15th level minimum (see they can manifest 7th level powers at 14, but they cannot take Expanded Knowledge (Psychofeedback) until they hit 15th level). Even with a +30 to strength for 15 rounds, that would only be +15 to hit and +10 to hit and +15 to damage, which is comparable to a Paladin using Smite, except it inflicts a crapton of ability damage on themselves for using it, and requires them to expend a lot in the way of their power points (having to pop temporal and then pop psychofeedback).

I am unimpressed. Especially since core spellcasters are way nastier than this without even having to use strategy.

EDIT:

Darth Uchiha wrote:
I can't put any faith in a book that would include such obviously overpowered powers.

Simulacrum is in the core rulebook. It trumps the hell out of everything in the 3.5 and PF Psionics book. Heck, they even made it stronger in PF and it was borkededed in 3.5.

Likewise, you seem to overlook the fact they fixed a lot of the powers. Energy stun? No getting DC 40-50 save DCs with it anymore, for example.


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For those curious as to the changes from 3.5 to Pathfinder, feel free to check out this Excellent Guide by Psyren at Giant in the Playground.


Ashiel wrote:
Dude, Mind Blank and Barred Mind are identical in their effects. What makes Barred Mind better, other than it mentions the psionic versions of the same stuff that Mind Blank blocks (and it blocks Psionics as well due to Transparency)?

Oops my mistake! Thanks for teaching me that they changed Mind Blank in Pathfinder. I think it's really overpowered that it can make greater invisibility so powerful!

Ashiel wrote:
Yeah, think about what you just said with Mind Crush. You have to spend two feats and burn your focus on the hope that they will fail the save. Meanwhile, it's also a full level higher than phantasmal killer, but they save as if it was 3 levels lower (notice they get a +4 bonus on the save to avoid it). It's vastly inferior to flesh to stone, and it's arguably worse than baleful polymorph at the same level.

I had never realized how powerful flesh to stone is! You're absolutely right.

Ashiel wrote:
Meanwhile, Temporal Acceleration plus Wilder huh? Well that would require them to be able to manifest 7th level powers, so that's 15th level minimum (see they can manifest 7th level powers at 14, but they cannot take Expanded Knowledge (Psychofeedback) until they hit 15th level). Even with a +30 to strength for 15 rounds, that would only be +15 to hit and +10 to hit and +15 to damage, which is comparable to a Paladin using Smite, except it inflicts a crapton of ability damage on themselves for using it, and requires them to expend a lot in the way of their power points (having to pop temporal and then pop psychofeedback).

It's not hard for a Wilder to gain 4 more attacks than that, thanks to Bite of the Wolf, TWF, ITWF, and Haste. Consider if it's 50 instead of 30. At level 21+, this spell can just give a bonus to a stat equal to the sum of every other stat! It's completely insane.

As 2/3 of my examples turned out to be bad, here's two more: the Eternal Warrior ability of the Psychic Warrior and True Mind Switch.

Thank you for showing me that I was wrong about Barred Mind and Psychic Crush! I'm amazed that Paizo printed Mind Blank, as the ability to hack monsters up while having invisibility that can't be beaten with true seeing is absurdly powerful!

Also, the blue is way better than any other race for my friend's optimized, nasty wizard arcane archer eldritch knight with dervish dance and a high stealth, but I'm sure that's an isolated problem.

It seems that True Mind Switch and the Eternal Warrior ability and Psychofeedback are my only qualms with the system now. I can see why you all like it so much. It makes me wonder if Paizo might never make a book with psionics since DSP did a good job for the most part.

Thanks for refuting my arguments, Ashiel! Do you agree that Psychofeedback and Eternal Warrior and True Mind Switch are too powerful?

Ashiel wrote:
Temporal Acceleration plus Wilder huh? Well that would require them to be able to manifest 7th level powers, so that's 15th level minimum (see they can manifest 7th level powers at 14, but they cannot take Expanded Knowledge (Psychofeedback) until they hit 15th level). Even with a +30 to strength for 15 rounds, that would only be +15 to hit and +10 to hit and +15 to damage, which is comparable to a Paladin using Smite, except it inflicts a crapton of ability damage on themselves for using it, and requires them to expend a lot in the way of their power points (having to pop temporal and then pop psychofeedback).

Actually, it only requires them to be able to manifest 6th level powers. Psychofeedback is only a 5th level power. This can be done at a mere level 13. However, I forgot that it's limited by the manifester level. Nonetheless, any spell that can boost stats by such a large amount is very overpowered in my opinion, especially in epic levels when there's no penalty for it.


If it makes you feel any better, there are still plenty of other methods to stop invisibility. Faerie Fire, Glitterdust, Invisibility Purge. None can be blocked by either mind-blank or barred mind. Likewise, mundane methods of detection, such as throwing flour on them (probably a splash weapon) or similar still work.

As for the wilder bit, that could get pretty powerful. That would take no less than 2 feats invested (Expanded Knowledge (Bite of the Wolf), Expanded Knowledge (Psychofeedback)) and would require them to be 15th level at the minimum, get buffed, and full-attack. You could definitely dish out some heavy pain with an extra +10-20 damage on every attack, but honestly by that level I wouldn't be amazingly shocked. If you feel strongly about it, however, you might consider just house-ruling the damage to be burn again. That way the ability damage has to heal naturally, meaning that they cannot pull this trick often.

EDIT: Oops, yes, 13th level. Still, requires 2 feats and for you to be playing a melee wilder, and it's still subject to being dispelled suddenly which makes you go from super-stats to super-doop. :P

True mind switch is kind of awesome. It hasn't really changed much at all since 3.5. It was around in 3.5 just as potent. As to core, someone was talking about how it's entirely possible to use a core spell (it's a necromancy spell that is escaping my memory at the moment) to swap bodies with a tarrasque. Honestly true mind-switch is awesome but IMHO not as game-breaking as some core material already is.

Eternal Warrior is pretty badass, for the psychic warrior. However, to maximize its potential you are going to want to pimp Wisdom like crazy. Psychic warriors are fairly multi-ability dependent, and the standard game assumes 15 point buy. Honestly, I would be very surprised if they had more than a +8 on average and likely no higher than a +12 by that level. Also eternal warrior only lasts for 5 minutes, which means that it's an amazing self-buff for the next 5 minutes, buuuuuut...

It only lasts 5 minutes. I have to admit it would be really quite nice for a psychic warrior who puts all his points into Wisdom, buffs wisdom via items, and then gets his +5 inherent to Wisdom, but honestly I'm not certain it's that amazing. I'll run some playtests and play around with it a bit, but at first glance I'm thinking it's probably not as bad as it looks. Honestly, though, if it really is pretty bad, you could house-rule to 1/2 the benefit and probably not hurt anyone's feelings.


Ashiel wrote:
If it makes you feel any better, there are still plenty of other methods to stop invisibility. Faerie Fire, Glitterdust, Invisibility Purge. None can be blocked by either mind-blank or barred mind. Likewise, mundane methods of detection, such as throwing flour on them (probably a splash weapon) or similar still work.

You have to know where they are for any of these to work. No reason they can't just cast spells on your from a distance.

Ashiel wrote:
As for the wilder bit, that could get pretty powerful. That would take no less than 2 feats invested (Expanded Knowledge (Bite of the Wolf), Expanded Knowledge (Psychofeedback)) and would require them to be 15th level at the minimum, get buffed, and full-attack. You could definitely dish out some heavy pain with an extra +10-20 damage on every attack, but honestly by that level I wouldn't be amazingly shocked. If you feel strongly about it, however, you might consider just house-ruling the damage to be burn again. That way the ability damage has to heal naturally, meaning that they cannot pull this trick often.

Level 13, not 15. Also, the best Wilder archetype gets expanded knowledge as bonus feats anyway. Even if you house-rule it to be ability burn again, it's still really broken at level 21 when they can completely remove the drawback.

Ashiel wrote:
True mind switch is kind of awesome. It hasn't really changed much at all since 3.5. It was around in 3.5 just as potent. As to core, someone was talking about how it's entirely possible to use a core spell (it's a necromancy spell that is escaping my memory at the moment) to swap bodies with a tarrasque. Honestly true mind-switch is awesome but IMHO not as game-breaking as some core material already is.

How do you swap bodies with a tarrasque using a core necromancy spell? Please try to find the spell. I've never seen such a thing and it's really ridiculous I just read every necromancy spell and still have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect that someone was using a 3rd-party resource or pulling your leg.

Ashiel wrote:
Eternal Warrior is pretty badass, for the psychic warrior. However, to maximize its potential you are going to want to pimp Wisdom like crazy. Psychic warriors are fairly multi-ability dependent, and the standard game assumes 15 point buy. Honestly, I would be very surprised if they had more than a +8 on average and likely no higher than a +12 by that level. Also eternal warrior only lasts for 5 minutes, which means that it's an amazing self-buff for the next 5 minutes,...

Having a five-minute duration is far more than enough to last for all of a normal combat, and a +12 boost to all those stats is really overpowered in my opinion.


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Actually, it only requires them to be able to manifest 6th level powers. Psychofeedback is only a 5th level power. This can be done at a mere level 13. However, I forgot that it's limited by the manifester level. Nonetheless, any spell that can boost stats by such a large amount is very overpowered in my opinion, especially in epic levels when there's no penalty for it.

This actually kind of reminds me of the offensive version of a friend of mine's psion build. I'd say if you really feel this power is too over the top, then go with the ability burn. However, virtually nobody took or used this power in 3.5 because it was ability burn. As is, you need 2 manifester levels per +1 to be gained. Likewise as levels progress into epics (Pathfinder doesn't support epic but I like epics so I'm happy to discuss it with you) the bonuses may appear less impressive, or the likelihood of having the buff removed likely increases. However, capping could be a valid consideration.

As for my friend's build, he calls it the "unbreakable psion". He's an elan who surprisingly didn't dump strength, dexterity, and constitution. He specializes in purely defensive powers like Vigor, Inertial Armor, etc. He has Body Fuel to burn ability points for Power Points. His entire build is based around the idea that he could take a comet impact and crawl away from the blast. Basically enemies have to eat through his temporary HP, then he burns his Power Points/Ability Scores to soak more damage, re-ups his Temp HP each round, and so forth. In short, he's actually the party's tank, and it's actually hilarious how much damage he can take.

Honestly, there was a handful of really amazing powers in the 3.5 psionics book as well, but comparatively it was way more balanced than the core. Likewise, there are maybe a handful of really awesome powers in this iteration of the psionics book, and again there's stuff in core that makes it look pretty dinky in retrospect.

On a side note, speaking of true mind switch. Are you familiar with the Psionic Sandwich? :P


Ashiel wrote:
As is, you need 2 manifester levels per +1 to be gained.

How so? Each manifester level lets you increase a stat by one.

What is a Psionic Sandwich?

I forgot to mention that being able to grapple things with telekinetic maneuver as a Wilder and use solicit psicrystal to pass concentration off to your psicrystal is probably also overpowered. My level 13 Wilder can grapple CR 15 dragons without the possibility of them escaping.


Darth Uchiha wrote:


You have to know where they are for any of these to work. No reason they can't just cast spells on your from a distance.

Good point.

Quote:
Ashiel wrote:
As for the wilder bit, that could get pretty powerful. That would take no less than 2 feats invested (Expanded Knowledge (Bite of the Wolf), Expanded Knowledge (Psychofeedback)) and would require them to be 15th level at the minimum, get buffed, and full-attack. You could definitely dish out some heavy pain with an extra +10-20 damage on every attack, but honestly by that level I wouldn't be amazingly shocked. If you feel strongly about it, however, you might consider just house-ruling the damage to be burn again. That way the ability damage has to heal naturally, meaning that they cannot pull this trick often.
Level 13, not 15. Also, the best Wilder archetype gets expanded knowledge as bonus feats anyway. Even if you house-rule it to be ability burn again, it's still really broken at level 21 when they can completely remove the drawback.

Completely remove the drawback?

Quote:
Ashiel wrote:
True mind switch is kind of awesome. It hasn't really changed much at all since 3.5. It was around in 3.5 just as potent. As to core, someone was talking about how it's entirely possible to use a core spell (it's a necromancy spell that is escaping my memory at the moment) to swap bodies with a tarrasque. Honestly true mind-switch is awesome but IMHO not as game-breaking as some core material already is.
How do you swap bodies with a tarrasque using a core...

Magic Jar can allow you to steal a Tarrasque's body for 20 hour increments. If you want to have some fun, you can create your own Tarrasque via Simulacrum who is under your control, and possess it at your leisure if you'd like, or just order him around for poops and giggles.

True mind switch is pretty cool but you can't grab any of their magical abilities, so you're basically just looking for a nice physical body of some sort. That's definitely an attractive option, and a very nice trick for a 20th level Telepath. However, it's worth noting that mind-blank or anything that provides immunity to mind-affecting effects blocks it outright. Likewise, it is targeted and so it can be avoided via Spell Turning and similar powers. It's limited to hit dice as well, which prevents you from taking over the bodies of certain really super things.

Honestly though, I think that complaining about the entire book because of 2 powers is a bit harsh. The original 3.5 had more problems than that did, and core PF still has more problems than it does. :P


Darth Uchiha wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
As is, you need 2 manifester levels per +1 to be gained.
How so? Each manifester level lets you increase a stat by one.

You only get a +1 modifier for every 2 points your ability scores increase (12, 14, 16, 18, etc). Thus at 20th level, grabbing and dropping 20 points from all your other stats results in a net +10 to the modifier of that ability score. That's +10 to hit and damage for 20 rounds, or until dispelled.

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What is a Psionic Sandwich?

It's a really funny CharOp exercise someone did which basically involves using some tricks to put your mind in a sandwich.

The Psionic Sandwich:
Hmph, I think I should edit my original mind-switch thread. The most optimal way to gain a body permanently is no longer true mind switch. It's to use astral seed + mind switch + psychic chirurgery. The result is an XP expendature of 0 XP, that's right zero. You lose no levels, and you gain all the effects of true mind switch.

Anyways, so in lieu of what I just said above, the most optimal way to create the most un-optimal character is to use the following sequence and build:

Race: Elan
Build: Telepath 20
Feats: Any, must have EK (Astral Seed) and skill focus (craft [basket weaving])

1. Acquire a loaf of bread (2cp)
2. Turn the bread into a sandwich (craft DC 5) (probably 2 minutes)
3. Polymorph the sandwich (preferably ham with mustard, pepperoni, salami, and jalapenos) into a fuzzy little bunny. (NPC casting 1200 gp) (1 standard action)
4. Cast astral seed (10 minutes)
5. Ritualistically slay yourself with favored method of suicide. Be sure to place your storage crystal next to the sandwich turned bunny. (I prefer to be killed with a dagger to the heart... :shifty: ) (Approximately 5 rounds)
6. Use mind-switch (the 6th level power) to switch with the rabbit, while in your storage crystal. (1 std action)
7. Metamorph into a troll and smash your storage crystal (now containing the mind of a sandwich). (2 standard actions)
8. Use psychic chirurgery to remove your negative level gotten from committing suicide. (10 minutes)
9. Dismiss your metamorphosis and manifest dispel psionics on yourself (to dispel the polymorph). (2 standard actions)

Congratulations, your ascention to the sublime state of a sandwich took:
23 minutes 6 seconds and costed you 1200.02 gold pieces.

Any one have a more optimal method?

Now, it occurred to me that this might not be a half bad character to play. So long as you pick up the power psionic overland flight and tweak your character levels a bit, you could seriously play a sandwich. Of course your hitpoints or AC wouldn't be much to speak of... but honestly, who is going to kill the sandwich that the fighter packs.

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I forgot to mention that being able to grapple things with telekinetic maneuver as a Wilder and use solicit psicrystal to pass concentration off to your psicrystal is probably also overpowered. My level 13 Wilder can grapple CR 15 dragons without the possibility of them escaping.

That's impressive. Most dragons tend to have pretty beastly CMD. That would be 13 BAB + 12 Charisma (assuming wish shenanigans via a 13th level wizard in your party) + wild surge for another +2 maybe? That's like +27, and allows Spell Resistance when you attempt it. A CR 13 Bronze Dragon has a CMD 36 (40 vs Trip) and SR 24. You have to roll an 11+ to beat his SR and a 9+ to beat his CMD (or 13+ for Tripping). That's less than a 50% chance of successfully pulling off your attempt each round.

Most will have lower numbers. I do love Telekinetic Maneuver, however, and it's a fun power to play around with, and it's a good control power. I'm not sure it's as strong as most battlefield control abilities since it is weaker vs martial creatures and allows SR and is single target, but it's definitely pretty cool.


Ashiel wrote:
You only get a +1 modifier for every 2 points your ability scores increase (12, 14, 16, 18, etc). Thus at 20th level, grabbing and dropping 20 points from all your other stats results in a net +10 to the modifier of that ability score. That's +10 to hit and damage for 20 rounds, or until dispelled.

Oh, I thought you were talking about +1 to a stat, not to the modifier.

Ashiel wrote:

That's impressive. Most dragons tend to have pretty beastly CMD. That would be 13 BAB + 12 Charisma (assuming wish shenanigans via a 13th level wizard in your party) + wild surge for another +2 maybe? That's like +27, and allows Spell Resistance when you attempt it. A CR 13 Bronze Dragon has a CMD 36 (40 vs Trip) and SR 24. You have to roll an 11+ to beat his SR and a 9+ to beat his CMD (or 13+ for Tripping). That's less than a 50% chance of successfully pulling off your attempt each round.

Most will have lower numbers. I do love Telekinetic Maneuver, however, and it's a fun power to play around with, and it's a good control power. I'm not sure it's as strong as most battlefield control abilities since it is weaker vs martial creatures and allows SR and is single target, but it's definitely pretty cool.

Oops I misspoke. With my +31 CMB I only have a 60% chance of success against that dragon with it, and only a 30% chance against a CR 15 very old black dragon. What I meant was that, once grappled, they can never beat its 54 CMD. I use Greater Power Penetration and expend my focus which I get back as a move action afterwards. If I happen to fail the SR check, I just try again next round. Once I beat the SR, I use Solicit Psicrystal and have a 30% chance of overcoming the dragon each round, and don't have to spend any actions to do so.


The reason why GMs freak about psionics is that they see what a first level psion can do, and extrapolate from there, not realizing that first level psions are in some ways at the height of their (comparative) power.

Take a first level Elan psion. (One of my actual complaints is how powerful Elans are compared to humans, but that's for another day.) Let's say he has an Int of 18, almost a certainty for a psion. So, he gets 2 points of power from his psion class, 2 points of power from having a high int, 1 point of power from the elan's favored class bonus and 2 points of power from being psionically talented. He takes his two feats as two more levels of psionically talented for a total of 14 power points. Which means he can use 14 first level powers a day, compared to a sorcerer who has at best 5 spells per day if he has a cha of 20.

Now he takes 3 powers plus 2 talents. Let's say he is a shaper. For his talents, he chooses ectoplasmic creation and entangling ectoplasm. Ectoplasmic creation is basically minor creation, a 4th level spell, that he can "cast" for free, while entangling ectoplasm is a ranged touch attack that entangles a target, also for free. For his powers, he takes astral construct (basically his summon monster spell, except he only has to take it once to get the entire chain), demoralize (all targets within 30' save vs will or be shaken for a minute) and matter agitation, which is basically heat metal, but better since it can affect flesh and other objects, and can do over ten rounds 8d6+1d4+1 points of damage. As a first level power.

Psions also can use their powers while wearing armor, so he can run around in leather (and later mithril shirts and mithril shields) without problems. So GMs see these "sorcerers" able to cast 3 times as many spells and more powerful spells, all while wearing armor.

Now by later levels, the psion's powers and abilities are more comparable to other classes, and things are much more balanced, but the damage is done. GMs have that "OMG, psionics is so overpowered" reaction, which is hard to overcome.


To be fair, that's more a problem with the Elan race. My group uses psionics in a Dark Sun campaign and thus doesn't have Elans. I'm not even sure where/if they belong. Same with Xephs and Dromites.

Personally, though I of course understand the necessity of it, I miss the Kreen and Gith races.


meatrace wrote:

To be fair, that's more a problem with the Elan race. My group uses psionics in a Dark Sun campaign and thus doesn't have Elans. I'm not even sure where/if they belong. Same with Xephs and Dromites.

Personally, though I of course understand the necessity of it, I miss the Kreen and Gith races.

Well Humans would be almost the same, except they would have 13 points instead of 14. Perhaps the real problem is with the psionic talent feat. If you offered a sorcerer a feat that allowed 2 additional 1st level spells per day, who wouldn't take it?

But yes, compared to humans, Elans are very, very powerful.


I might indeed take that feat. However, it's worth noting that it's not quite the same with Vancian vs Psionic. A sorcerer's magic will automatically become stronger via a process we psionic fans call "free scaling", meaning that for the same spell slot the sorcerer is going to get 5d4+5 magic missiles later on, and his ray of enfeeblement is going to inflict a 1d6+5 strength penalty, and his shocking grasp is going to do 5d6 electricity damage, etc.

With the psionicist, you'll get to use a few weak powers more often at 1st level. Stuff like energy ray isn't really very impressive at this level. The best is probably stuff like ectoplasmic sheen (aka psionic grease) which got a bit of a buff and entangling ectoplasm (got a bit of a nerf in PF) which are battlefield control. Most wizard schools now get a 1d6 + X special feature or something akin to a 1st level spell that they can use as a Supernatural ability 3 + Int mod times per day.

EDIT: Also, Vancian types get way more out of things like Rings of Wizardry.


Dilvias wrote:
meatrace wrote:

To be fair, that's more a problem with the Elan race. My group uses psionics in a Dark Sun campaign and thus doesn't have Elans. I'm not even sure where/if they belong. Same with Xephs and Dromites.

Personally, though I of course understand the necessity of it, I miss the Kreen and Gith races.

Well Humans would be almost the same, except they would have 13 points instead of 14. Perhaps the real problem is with the psionic talent feat. If you offered a sorcerer a feat that allowed 2 additional 1st level spells per day, who wouldn't take it?

But yes, compared to humans, Elans are very, very powerful.

I don't imagine many people would take it actually. It'd be good at first level but not very good later on. If they just fixed pearls of power...

Talent is one of those things as well. You take it once it's an extra PP, which is significant at level 1. If you take it for EVERY FEAT you end up with a lot of extra PP...but past the first couple levels that isn't buying you a lot. Not compared to what you really need to maximize your potential as a Psion. Really all your feats are chosen for you because there is only one path to power. Psycrystal Affinity, Psycrystal Containment, Psionic Meditation, Overchannel, Psionic Endowment/Greater, maybe Quicken and Empower Powers. Those are things you need to be good at whatever you do as a Psion.

I guess my thing about balance comes down to this-there are undoubtedly things that Psions do better. Although they get all Summons as one power (which, unless you're a shaper, takes a feat slot) but your summons are only EVER going to be beatsticks. No summoning a Ghaele Eladrin to heal for you, or Lantern Archon to auto-kill any golems.

People look at Psionics as a new thing and say this or that is overpowered only in comparison to Magic which perhaps can't do that exact thing. They don't go back and realize all the things magic can do that Psionics can't or at least doesn't.

There are things that I don't like about the DSP psionics book, but it is nonetheless fairly well done and on a relative power level to Pathfinder as XPH was to 3.5.


meatrace wrote:
People look at Psionics as a new thing and say this or that is overpowered only in comparison to Magic which perhaps can't do that exact thing. They don't go back and realize all the things magic can do that Psionics can't or at least doesn't.

While I agree that this is the case, I still feel that Psychofeedback is very overpowered, especially when used by a Wilder. Being able to boost all of your physical stats by a manifester level that's boosted by your wild surge in a class that wears armor, has a 3/4 level BAB, and makes great use of Vigor, which is far and away the best temporary HP source in the game seems like a recipe for disaster to me.


I want to say one thing about this and hope that I don't come back and read it. Like it was stated above, many people want to say Psionics are overpowered but 8 times out of 10 it is a one trick pony that requires heavy investments of specific feats, powers, magic items, etc. Wizards/sorcerers/clerics/oracles can simply take one spell and make all psionics moot, Wish/Miracle. "I wish psionics did not exist on this world" = Spell casters winning. A psionic character can do some pretty crazy stuff at high levels, but when a spell caster can completely alter the entirety of the campaign with ONE PHRASE that's pretty powerful too. Also, high level spell casters can do some crazy things with spells, prismatic spray, black tentacles, telekinesis, flesh to stone, baleful polymorph, simulacrum, the pit spells, etc. I think most people's problems with psionics is not that they can "nova" or they are "overpowered" it is because they can do something spell casters can't and that makes them jealous because spell casters are greedy people who want to be able to alter the entire universe by simply talking. That last part is partially joking, but not really.


Nice discussion here. I'm currently playing a psionic on this messageboard, and overpowered at 1st Level he's not. Of course, I'm a roleplayer, and didn't stuff all three beginning feats with the Psionic Talent feat for +6 psionic power points. I chose a Kineticist, and while the dicebot has been kind to him, he still runs out of points after the 2nd battle or so and is forced to "drop down" to the 1d3 damage level, much like a Sorcerer with Ray of Frost after he uses all of his Magic Missiles.

An INT of 18 may help with power points, but when the game is focused on Survival and Heal checks early on, (using Wisdom), he's not making that many skill level checks and getting automatic wins. He's having to learn the skills first.

You can build a munchkin Sorcerer who has Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, and Fireball to whomp on any battles just as you can build a Psion to "Nova" any encounter. Until he runs out of power points, and can't use a Wand. The new DSP PF Psionic can't spend any more power points than he/she has levels, so doing 6d6 damage with Energy Ray at 1st Level isn't going to happen (Wilders aside). Doing 6d6 damage at 6th Level is fairly normal and expected by the GM.

Summon Monster I, II, III, etc to IX are just there to fill spell slots. It's the same with Astral Construct from 1st Level to 20th Level. It's been written to be as close as possible! Psions get fewer "spells" than spellcasters, so augmenting is the solution to "wasting" slots.

Just because a psion can do the same power over and over again until he/she runs out of power points, while the Sorcerer/Wizard/Cleric/Bard/Ranger has only 1-6 spells per slot, isn't a big deal. Ever hear of Rings of Wizardry? Or the scroll-making Wizard? Or the spellcaster who has a brand-new Wand?

Any GM who allows Wish to change the entire world with one phrase hasn't read the entry on Wish, IMHO. Forget that the spell is 9th Level, and hence only a 17th-level character should get it "normally", and most GMs won't let anyone less than 13th Level get the spell via scroll or ring either. You can't change the world with just one Wish. You could change yourself, maybe a large town or area, or a group of people, but not the whole world.

Psionics are different, and thus not in most GM's Rolodex. That makes them think, and that is the problem with psionics. You can have the same complaint with a character who buys 100% of all Pazio products, memorizes them, and "rules lawyers" the books in an Adventure Path. A good GM knows how to drive the plot train and manage the players. A bad GM blames the game.

I've been extremely fortunate in getting a GM who is allowing me to play a psionic for the first time in a Pazio AP. So I'm walking on eggshells here, but having a ton of fun and roleplay. I'm also learning psionics as we go. My own major complaint with the DSP psionics is a lack of well-thought-out prestige classes. Only a few of the nine offered in DSP allow a psion to continue gaining psionic powers as he/she levels. I haven't gotten into the archtypes from DSP yet, so I have no idea if there are other possibilities available.

I don't care if Pazio makes a psionic book. As long as individual GMs allow DSP's Psionics Unleashed in their game, I'm happy.

Silver Crusade

Ashiel wrote:
Nemitri wrote:

I seriously dislike the vancian system so much, its like playing a card game with my spells. It does have the upside that is easy to track, but once you use your spell (card) and dont have multiple copies of the same spell, and you REALLY need that spell again, then you are screwed. Thats why I like spontaneous spellcasting more, sure you can't have all the spells kno, but the hassle of managing what you do and don't know or what you have prepared or what you havent prepared its much easy to track. The Psionic system its like having a 2nd bar, a mana bar if you will, its not so hard to track down.

As for the sci-fi theme aversion, I like it, as well as I like medeival fantasy, to each their own.

On the subject of sci-fi themes, wizards are sci-fi. They build giant robots, play with chemistry sets, preform mathematical equations, and use various types of ingredients like sulfur and methane to produce fireballs when charged with supernatural energies.

Psionic characters? They meditate and focus their wills to shape the world around them. They use magic stones as tools for working their powers and storing the energies inside crystals, which have been a part of esoteric lore for centuries.

I know which one sounds more sci-fi to me, and it's probably the guy playing with his chemistry set, making fire out of bat poo, and building giant iron robots.

For me Psioinics fits very well into a fantasy setting. I enjoyed the Deryni novel series by Cathrine Kurtz. The magic in that series was what we would think of as psionics.

I think the "sci fi" feel to psionics comes from powers like "id insinuation" and "Ego whip". Id and Ego are Freudian terms, which implies a relationship with Psychology, and i think people then associate that with a more modern mind set. Hence the Sci-fi.

And I agree the Formulaic approach to "magic" in terms of bat poo, sulpher, specific gestures, and latin sounding words like "incendia" certainlay leads to a "scientific approach" which is much more modern then the

"Use the Force trust your instincts" or "size matters not" to get that rock moving with your mind seems much more "fantasy" like to me....erm well i think there is another association to Sci FI.....the force= Psionics= Star wars.


Ironically, Star Wars is more like a fantasy adventure set in space. I mean you have all the classic elements of D&D fantasy. You have magic users (they even have force witches and wizards), swords and axes (both mundane and powered), lightsabers (basically magic swords), giant monsters, exotic locations, and so forth.

I actually recently converted the d20 Star Wars Revised Jedi to be played in a D&D game I was participating in, and the GM was cool with the idea of using the Jedi classes in the D&D game. Refluffed as an order of supernatural paladin-monks, it actually feels just as oddly familiar in D&D, even with the lightsaber (the GM was cool with keeping the lightsaber, since it basically is magic energy focused through crystals).

However, when I see psionics, I get more of a mana-feel to it, because it very much works like a more fluid and intuitive version of normal spellcasting. Simpler, easier to work with, and far easier to make it fit different concepts. It really appeals to those who hate the fire & forget mechanics of core casting. I have a friend who plays Barbarians and Psions, but wouldn't touch a wizard or sorcerer with a 10ft pole.

Dark Archive

Darth Uchiha wrote:
I was wondering if Paizo has made an official statement as to whether or not they will release a book that incorporates psionics. I am aware of Psionics Unleashed, but I find it to be horribly unbalanced, and have much higher standards for Pathfinder. I'm amazed that we have ninjas and gunslingers and samurai but still no wilder.

I have absolute confidence that Paizo will release a psionics books. They need to sell books. Psionics are one of the few "crunch" types that are left that people want. Now that guns are in, psionics are coming. Especially once Vudrani are more fleshed out.

That being said, I have no idea what the system might be. Perhaps will be 3.5, or maybe it'll use the Words of Power as a model, or something else entirely. As long as it's not Vancian, I'll be able to tolerate it.


Darth Uchiha wrote:
Oops my mistake! Thanks for teaching me that they changed Mind Blank in Pathfinder. I think it's really overpowered that it can make greater invisibility so powerful!

3e mind blank was a lot better than PF mind blank is. You still gain immunity to divination in PF, but mind blank used to make you immune to all mind-affecting effects, too. Not +8 to saves, but immune. Eat your heart out, enchanters.

That's why your argument was baffling at first and only got bafflinger after you admitted that you overlooked the change to mind blank.

Darth Uchiha wrote:


As 2/3 of my examples turned out to be bad, here's two more: the Eternal Warrior ability of the Psychic Warrior and True Mind Switch.

Eternal Warrior? It's a capstone power. That means you have to get to level 20 to get them . I can't even remember when I last had a level 20 character. And when you do get to play it, it's for a small part of the campaign. Plus, at level 20, things are powerful.

Same goes for true mind switch. This is a 9th-level power. Not something you'll get to use that often or that long.

Condemning the whole system over nothing but high-end stuff? It's all powerful up there.

On lover levels Psionics Unleashed made lots of improvements. The system even convinced me that the soulknife deserves to be a class (the way it was before, it was no more than a small feat chain)

As for psychofeedback: I can see people using it now. I wouldn't have picked it up before. A short boost for a weakness that took days to clear up? That sounds like desperation, not something a manifester with his limited (sometimes very limited) selection of powers might consider to keep around.

But now the power can be useful. You still have to get rid of the damage, which will take time, but you can speed it up now since it's no longer burn.

Later, the power will get an improved duration, and even later, you can make the damage temporary to fade when the boosts fade (rounds later). And close towards the end, you get to have the bigger duration AND the temporary bonus.

It's still tricky business, as you do have an ability damage. Some enemies will be able to realise and exploit it. Others will exploit it inadvertently. So you think cha 3 for the psychosomatic juggernaut is enough? Hope you won't run into a ghost - or a fellow manifester with ego whip.


Darth Uchiha wrote:
meatrace wrote:
People look at Psionics as a new thing and say this or that is overpowered only in comparison to Magic which perhaps can't do that exact thing. They don't go back and realize all the things magic can do that Psionics can't or at least doesn't.
While I agree that this is the case, I still feel that Psychofeedback is very overpowered, especially when used by a Wilder. Being able to boost all of your physical stats by a manifester level that's boosted by your wild surge in a class that wears armor, has a 3/4 level BAB, and makes great use of Vigor, which is far and away the best temporary HP source in the game seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

At level 13 or 15 or whatever, being able to buff yourself to be good in melee isn't...really important. I mean I guess it's a cool trick, but as a wilder you should be doing far crazier things.

I mean, if you want to get down to it, a Wizard who doesn't dump strength can cast Giant Shape and Transformation to become a pretty crazy melee beast for a combat or two. Around the same level, 13-15. But in reality he's better off casting Prismatic Wall or some Black Tentacles. Etc.


Speaking from the position that I liked psionics in 3.5 I rather like dreamscarred presses version. Well, aside from the art I personally find it vomit inducing, (sry if any of the artists post here it's a matter of taste).

I find it amusing that someoen can find broken things in it when I can pick up the core book and shatter your game into a million pieces with it. Psionics was and always has been somewhat limiting in what it can do.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

meatrace wrote:
My group uses psionics in a Dark Sun campaign and thus doesn't have Elans. I'm not even sure where/if they belong.

Pst. Elans are a race taken directly from the Dark Sun world. You can find them in the Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium.

Silver Crusade

Ashiel wrote:

Ironically, Star Wars is more like a fantasy adventure set in space. I mean you have all the classic elements of D&D fantasy. You have magic users (they even have force witches and wizards), swords and axes (both mundane and powered), lightsabers (basically magic swords), giant monsters, exotic locations, and so forth.

I actually recently converted the d20 Star Wars Revised Jedi to be played in a D&D game I was participating in, and the GM was cool with the idea of using the Jedi classes in the D&D game. Refluffed as an order of supernatural paladin-monks, it actually feels just as oddly familiar in D&D, even with the lightsaber (the GM was cool with keeping the lightsaber, since it basically is magic energy focused through crystals).

However, when I see psionics, I get more of a mana-feel to it, because it very much works like a more fluid and intuitive version of normal spellcasting. Simpler, easier to work with, and far easier to make it fit different concepts. It really appeals to those who hate the fire & forget mechanics of core casting. I have a friend who plays Barbarians and Psions, but wouldn't touch a wizard or sorcerer with a 10ft pole.

I do agree that Star wars has a very fantasy feel to it. Perhaps thats one of the reasons I like Star wars allot (New Hope, Empire Strikes back, and Return of the Jedi), and i also liked the first Knights of the old Republic game allot as well. as an aside note I also liked Babylon 5.

I am just trying to come up with reasons,not my own, reasons why people might assume psionics have a si fi feel to them.


Ashiel wrote:
Ironically, Star Wars is more like a fantasy adventure set in space. I mean you have all the classic elements of D&D fantasy. You have magic users (they even have force witches and wizards), swords and axes (both mundane and powered), lightsabers (basically magic swords), giant monsters, exotic locations, and so forth.

Indeed.

Epic Meepo wrote:
Pst. Elans are a race taken directly from the Dark Sun world. You can find them in the Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium.

Oh, were they in the AD&D version? Because I can't for the life of me remember them being there.

ElyasRavenwood wrote:
I am just trying to come up with reasons,not my own, reasons why people might assume psionics have a si fi feel to them.

Call psionics "mind magic," and I doubt anyone will have that complaint.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ElyasRavenwood wrote:


I am just trying to come up with reasons,not my own, reasons why people might assume psionics have a si fi feel to them.

Perhaps it's because the names and descriptions of the powers bring up images from either 70's New Age, or comic book X-Men, much more than they do traditional fantasy tropes?


LazarX wrote:
Perhaps it's because the names and descriptions of the powers bring up images from either 70's New Age, or comic book X-Men, much more than they do traditional fantasy tropes?

I think he meant the concept in general, not the names and descriptions of the powers. (For the record: '70s New Age cribs heavily from yoga and folk medicine and contains few, if any, original concepts.)

And considering that there are spells with names such as telepathic bond...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Arevashti wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Perhaps it's because the names and descriptions of the powers bring up images from either 70's New Age, or comic book X-Men, much more than they do traditional fantasy tropes?

I think he meant the concept in general, not the names and descriptions of the powers. (For the record: '70s New Age uses few, if any, original concepts.)

And considering that there are spells with names such as telepathic bond...

The concept in general either melds into the generic fire casting wizard type (pyrokinesis) or is strictly a modern trope (Telekinesis, especially TK shields and teleportation)


KaeYoss wrote:
3e mind blank was a lot better than PF mind blank is.

WHAT?! IT LETS YOU BEAT TRUE SEEING WITH GREATER INVISIBILITY! In 3.5 it didn't stop See Invisibility or similar effects, but now it is FAR AND AWAY the most powerful spell in the game.

meatrace wrote:

At level 13 or 15 or whatever, being able to buff yourself to be good in melee isn't...really important. I mean I guess it's a cool trick, but as a wilder you should be doing far crazier things.

I mean, if you want to get down to it, a Wizard who doesn't dump strength can cast Giant Shape and Transformation to become a pretty crazy melee beast for a combat or two. Around the same level, 13-15. But in reality he's better off casting Prismatic Wall or some Black Tentacles. Etc.

Transformation gives an enhancement bonus so it doesn't overlap with easily accessible magic items. Giant Form II is 8th level and only gives

+8 to strength. Psycofeedback is level 5 and can easily give +20 to Str, Dex, AND Con with multiple uses at the same level. To suggest that it's a mere "cool trick" strikes me as absurd. It's FAR, FAR stronger than ANY Sorcerer/Wizard spell that buffs physical stats.

TarkXT wrote:
I find it amusing that someoen can find broken things in it when I can pick up the core book and shatter your game into a million pieces with it. Psionics was and always has been somewhat limiting in what it can do.

How do you "shatter [my] game into a million pieces?" Please provide an example. Outside of Mind Blank, I don't see ANYTHING in Pathfinder that's as powerful as you're making it sound.


LazarX wrote:
The concept in general either melds into the generic fire casting wizard type (pyrokinesis) or is strictly a modern trope (Telekinesis, especially TK shields and teleportation)

The word "telekinesis" is relatively new. The concept itself really isn't. (Merlin is said to have "magically transported" Stonehenge from Ireland.)


Darth Uchiha wrote:


Transformation gives an enhancement bonus so it doesn't overlap with easily accessible magic items. Giant Form II is 8th level and only gives
+8 to strength. Psycofeedback is level 5 and can easily give +20 to Str, Dex, AND Con with multiple uses at the same level. To suggest that it's a mere "cool trick" strikes me as absurd. It's FAR, FAR stronger than ANY Sorcerer/Wizard spell that buffs physical stats.

Erm...not really. Let's say you're playing a Wilder who starts with a good strength, for some dumb reason. I mean he's better off blasting or using save or die spells or being a super charmer/dominator, but hey maybe he just wants to have fun. He has a good Cha, let's say 18 with a +2 racial, that costs him 10 points. A 16 strength costs him another 10. Let's be generous and assume 1)a 25 point buy and 2)you're not so dumb as to TOTALLY tank your wisdom. So you have 5 points left, you put 5 into con for a 14 con, a 7 int, and then 2 points in wis and dex. S-16 D-12 C-14 I-7 W-12 Ch-18. Let's also say you have a +6 str belt. For fun. 26 at level 13.

Now, after adventuring with that crappy array and being worse than a melee at melee for 12 levels, it's finally time for your build to shine. You blow 2 feats on Bite of the Wolf and Psychofeedback. Combat comes up, and you bust out biofeedback in round 1, surging for an effective ML of 17. Yowza. You enhance it so you don't take ability damage while the power is active. You get a +26 strength, for a total of 52. that's +21 to hit and damage. Round 2 you move into position and take one swing, probably hitting and doing around 50 damage if you're competent. Third round you're ready to full attack, and you do, obliterating one enemy. Then on round four...oh dang where'd everybody go? Oh yeah combat doesn't last very long. Well with a round of prep you were able to kill one dude. Too bad every caster can do that at your level, most want to incapacitate multiple enemies or if you're a kineticist just do ZOMGdamage to them.

Really. It's just damage, man.

Also, you really have a high opinion of Invisibility. It's a neat trick with Mind Blank but it's not even anywhere close to the most powerful spell in the game. It's not even a top tier spell or one I'd necessarily choose at level 15 and/or cast every day.


Epic Meepo wrote:
meatrace wrote:
My group uses psionics in a Dark Sun campaign and thus doesn't have Elans. I'm not even sure where/if they belong.
Pst. Elans are a race taken directly from the Dark Sun world. You can find them in the Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium.

So I go and pull out my DS monstrous compendium. Don't see it, bro. It's not under E for Elan or it would be between Elf and Fael. You sure about that?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
JMD031 wrote:
Wizards/sorcerers/clerics/oracles can simply take one spell and make all psionics moot, Wish/Miracle. "I wish psionics did not exist on this world" = Spell casters winning.

I'm sorry, but I don't think any GM in their right mind would allow that to function.

Would you allow "I wish divine spellcasters did not exist on this world" to stop all clerics/paladins/oracles from existing?

Would you allow "I wish music didn't exist on this world" to cripple all bards?

Wish/Miracle have a number of set limitations. Anything beyond those limitations is risky and down to GM discretion.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
meatrace wrote:
Epic Meepo wrote:
meatrace wrote:
My group uses psionics in a Dark Sun campaign and thus doesn't have Elans. I'm not even sure where/if they belong.
Pst. Elans are a race taken directly from the Dark Sun world. You can find them in the Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium.
So I go and pull out my DS monstrous compendium. Don't see it, bro. It's not under E for Elan or it would be between Elf and Fael. You sure about that?

According to wikipedia there was an article for Athasian Elan in Dragon #319. But that was a support article for 3.5. I believe Elan were invented for the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

Even if it did exist in an earlier monstrous compendium, there were no official rules to use monsters as races in those days. There are all sorts of things in the Dark Sun monstrous compendium that would be overpowered player races.


meatrace wrote:
Now, after adventuring with that crappy array and being worse than a melee at melee for 12 levels, it's finally time for your build to shine. You blow 2 feats on Bite of the Wolf and Psychofeedback. Combat comes up, and you bust out biofeedback in round 1, surging for an effective ML of 17. Yowza. You enhance it so you don't take ability damage while the power is active. You get a +26 strength, for a total of 52. that's +21 to hit and damage. Round 2 you move into position and take one swing, probably hitting and doing around 50 damage if you're competent. Third round you're ready to full attack, and you do, obliterating one enemy. Then on round four...oh dang where'd everybody go? Oh yeah combat doesn't last very long. Well with a round of prep you were able to kill one dude. Too bad every caster can do that at your level, most want to incapacitate multiple enemies or if you're a kineticist just do ZOMGdamage to them....

You don't blow two feats when the Wilder class gives you Expanded Knowledge for free. Also, you probably take Hustle so you get to have a move action and a full attack action in one round. Finally, there are many combats that take longer than that. I guess you think that a spell which can add a boosted caster level to every physical stat isn't overpowered, and that's where we have a disagreement.

So, how would you deal with being attacked by an invisible Wizard that uses spells that don't give you a hint as to his location?

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