Galleys are bad ass in ultimate combat, especially if you add the castles and ram. They seem closer to the galleass. However, there is one little item, which has been passed down throughout editions of D&D concerning the galley that needs some correction. In every edition of D&D that I can remember, the rules for galleys and warships say that they are not ocean going vessels but had to hug the coast. This is historically true, but it would not be true in Pathfinder. The reason that historical galleys, triremes, etc. were not able to go on long ocean going voyages was because they used very large numbers of rowers. All of these people need food and water, particularly water. That is a lot of water. So they had to stop every few days to get water. In Pathfinder, create water is an orison. A 1st level cleric could supply an entire ship with water indefinitely.
Could a galley handle deep water swells?
And it would be pretty cramped. But if the rowers where slaves or constructs then that may not matter too much.
Didn't Christopher Columbus et al cross the ocean blue in similar ships a number of times? I don't see how that wouldn't be a deep sea voyage. I also don't see how it would have been possible if their ships were easily destroyed by ocean swells.
Galleys are bad ass in ultimate combat, especially if you add the castles and ram. They seem closer to the galleass. However, there is one little item, which has been passed down throughout editions of D&D concerning the galley that needs some correction. In every edition of D&D that I can remember, the rules for galleys and warships say that they are not ocean going vessels but had to hug the coast. This is historically true, but it would not be true in Pathfinder. The reason that historical galleys, triremes, etc. were not able to go on long ocean going voyages was because they used very large numbers of rowers. All of these people need food and water, particularly water. That is a lot of water. So they had to stop every few days to get water. In Pathfinder, create water is an orison. A 1st level cleric could supply an entire ship with water indefinitely.
Could a galley handle deep water swells?
And it would be pretty cramped. But if the rowers where slaves or constructs then that may not matter too much.
Slaves would not be a good idea if they were boarded by a ship from andoran.
Nobody ever tried to cross the Atlantic in a galley, and for darned good reasons
Yeah, lack of 100 animated skeletons to row for you.
A little creative application of the magic rules in this game lets you do all sorts of stuff that wouldn't be normally viable. A galley with 60 skeletons rowing and another 20 baling water could easily weather a storm. But who'd need to weather a "storm?" In Pathfinder, we control the weather to be what we want it to be. With a spell. Called "control weather."
I feel that I must point out that Viking longships have crossed the Atlantic on at least one occasion. Lief Erickson made it and IIRC he was not the only one. Not to mention those same longships regularly crossed open ocean to reach greenland and Iceland from skandinavia.
The crossing is possible. But by no means easy, and the vikings were quite possibly the best sailors in the atlantic at that time.
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Nobody ever tried to cross the Atlantic in a galley, and for darned good reasonsYeah, lack of 100 animated skeletons to row for you.
A little creative application of the magic rules in this game lets you do all sorts of stuff that wouldn't be normally viable. A galley with 60 skeletons rowing and another 20 baling water could easily weather a storm. But who'd need to weather a "storm?" In Pathfinder, we control the weather to be what we want it to be. With a spell. Called "control weather."
Which can only be cast by a 13+ level character. I imagine that most of these restrictions don't apply to spellcasters once they've reached those levels.
Anyway, my source for this is 'Empires of the Sea' by Roger Crowley. Its a very cool history book about the siege of Malta, and the battle of Lepanto, a massive naval battle in 16th century. It was one of the coolest history books I have read in years.
Sounds cool - so cool that i just ordered it :) Thanks for the tip!
well. While it's true that the galley is not a good choise for ocean travel. Youd be surprised what you can coax out of a vessel. I not be to surprised if a party tries to take a galley on an oceanic voyage.
If you want a well-researched presentation of the difficulties (but not impossibilities) of taking a galley on the ocean, try David Weber's "Off Armageddon Reef" (and its sequels).
The author is a military history buff, so I trust his presentation to be largely accurate, and in this book, several nations take their galleys on ocean voyages during a major religious war - with varying results.
If your galley gets swamped by a wave.....
...you cast Control Water.
If your galley gets swamped by a wave........you cast Control Water.
Sorry guys, I'm playing a Druid in a custom seafaring (pirate) campaign right now, so I've had quite a lot of time to work this stuff out. Magic in PF/DND really changes the face of oceanic travel. In fact, it changes it *so much* that if you want your campaign to have any sort of ocean faring element in it AT ALL you have to systematically nerf certain spells and items that bypass it.
1) If you have Teleport, or Ring Gates, or that sort of thing in your game, there is no ocean trade. It's cheaper and easier to transport goods via teleport than via boat, which means there's no point in building boats in the first place if you're a big trade house, which nerfs seafaring. No ocean trade, no pirates. No pirates = no fun.
2) Scry. It's almost impossible to ward an entire boat from scrying, so the governments or big trade houses who want to stop you from pirating them can just scry on your location, teleport in, kill you, and teleport out. If they're extra smart, they don't even attack your boat, they teleport in underneath your boat and drill holes in the bottom of it with a hand auger.
What we've done with our campaign, is break each island archipelago off into a different old earth culture (greek, chinese, norse, etc) using the real old-earth gods, and then glued them together with a magical ocean that prevents teleportation and scrying. So you can teleport and scry all you want within a certain ethnically similar region, but to go between them you have to take a boat.
And yeah, magic really helps with those boats. Permanency/Gust of Wind anyone?
We're using weather tables and some boat stats/combat out of 3.5/Stormwrack currently, but considering dumping them for core PF rules as they develop. Haven't looked in much of the new source material for ocean stuff yet.
our campaign, if anyone's bored and wants to read through it:
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In fact, it changes it *so much* that if you want your campaign to have any sort of ocean faring element in it AT ALL you have to systematically nerf certain spells and items that bypass it.
I'm going to have to disagree with this assertion. Magic, while it does modify the nature of oceanic travel, does not do so to the extent you are describing. For most every magic issue there is a magical solution, after all.
1) If you have Teleport, or Ring Gates, or that sort of thing in your game, there is no ocean trade. It's cheaper and easier to transport goods via teleport than via boat, which means there's no point in building boats in the first place if you're a big trade house, which nerfs seafaring. No ocean trade, no pirates. No pirates = no fun.
Ring Gates are only 18 inches in diameter, have a range of only 100 miles and cost 40k per pair. While they are handy for some aspects, they are not the end all be all, especially for trans-ocean transport.
Teleport can work, but there is a chance it will not end up at it's final destination (just like via sea transport). The less familiar the caster is with the person or objects' destination, the greater the chance for serious mishap.
Greater teleport solves this, but only for the caster and one or more additional persons. Granted, these folks can all carry things, but not anywhere near the capacity of a large ship.
If you are playing in a world where spellcasters are common (and powerful spell casters to boot ... minimum level for teleport is 9th, greater teleport is 13th, teleportation circle is 17th), then there is the chance magic will certainly compete with traditional sea faring means of moving cargo and people. Just as there would be land based trade (there is no reason magic would not supersede land based trade as well, truth be told). However, this brings us to the final point for this section. Cost.
Do you really think a 9th or higher level wizard would teleport goods for the pleasure of it? Most likely it would be a costly endeavor (especially for the teleportation cirlce which requires 1k in amber dust as a material component). Additionally, a single casting of anyh of the teleportaion family of spells would not come to nearly the cargo capacity of even a small trading vessel, so multiple casting would be required. This reason in and of itself would give the traditional traders a foothold in the world of trade and moving goods.
Couple this with the fact that most trade is the shipping of goods from point a to point b, at which point you sell and/or trade your goods for other goods and go to either point c or back to point a and repeat the process and you get a trade dynamic. Magic would give you a trade outflow with no inflow.
2) Scry. It's almost impossible to ward an entire boat from scrying, so the governments or big trade houses who want to stop you from pirating them can just scry on your location, teleport in, kill you, and teleport out. If they're extra smart, they don't even attack your boat, they teleport in underneath your boat and drill holes in the bottom of it with a hand auger.
Scry is focused on an individual, not an object, and can be blocked. Discern location is a bigger concern, but again you come to the question of cost. Additionally, there are means of making teleportation difficult if not near impossible, so if you are a pirate with concerns of wizardly hit squads, then these would be a worthwhile investment.
And yeah, magic really helps with those boats. Permanency/Gust of Wind anyone?
Yep, no getting caught in the doldrums. And things along these lines would be another means that magic would actually aid traditional traders rather than replace them.
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Scry is focused on an individual, not an object, and can be blocked. Discern location is a bigger concern, but again you come to the question of cost. Additionally, there are means of making teleportation difficult if not near impossible, so if you are a pirate with concerns of wizardly hit squads, then these would be a worthwhile investment.
It is even worse than that:
- Discern location: The spell reveals the name of the creature or object's location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.Result of casting the spell: he is on the ship Mirabelle, in the Mediterranean sea, Adriatic sea, Gulf of Trieste.
Little problem: the Gulf of Trieste as an extension of 550 square Kilometres (215 square miles). Not so easy finding him.
- Scry: you see the immediate environs of the scryed guy (10' radius) if he fail the ST. Now you can teleport to him. Teleport say "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination." Layout? Ok, you are seeing a section of the ship. Location? .... somewhere.
Let's be generous and say that you can teleport aboard a unknown ship in a unknown location (and I have some serious misgiving about teleporting aboard something that is moving and changing his position).
Again teleport: "“Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying.". That is: you have a 24% chance to miss the ship, with a 11% chance of be teleported some teens or hundred of miles of target in the middle of a sea or ocean.
I hope all your attack force is flying or they are very good at swimming.
Control weather:
- 7th level spell. You need to memorize at least 2 every day if you wan to to be sure. A bad roll on the 4d12 and you will not have 24 hours of calm weather.
- casting time 10 minutes and another 10 minutes for the effect to manifest. Some dangerous weather phenomenon can be baster than that from what I read.
- it do nothing to calm the rough waters created by a tempest that still continue outside the 2 miles radious of the spell area of effect.
Control water:
- "This spell has two different applications, both of which control water in different ways. The first version of this spell causes water in the area to swiftly evaporate or to sink into the ground below, lowering the water's depth. The second version causes the water to surge and rise, increasing its overall depth and possibly flooding nearby areas." I fail to see how that will help you in rough waters.
Maybe if you target an incoming big wave you can "remove" it. But then you have a whirlpool there instead. I don't know if that is an improvement.
Magi help, don't mistake me. But it is not the cure all, catch all people make it. Often people fail to read the minutiae in the spells and use them outside of their limits.
You don't cast control water on the wave, you cast it on the bilge after the wave hits to clear it. Any wave that swamps the boat for an hour instantly evaporates.
You can reduce your teleport error by repeated scrying, which is free for druids and for anyone with a crystal ball. And you scry on a low level deckhand, so the chance of success is higher. It's not that hard.
its entirely possible that if there are high-level wizards they may set up a permanent teleportation circle network in a handful of cities, but then those routes are going to get expensive, because whoever's in charge knows they can charge. so you will wind up with luxury goods going through regularly, while anything 'mundane' or illegal will have to rely on people making the run between towns...I think i have a campaign setting...
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You can reduce your teleport error by repeated scrying, which is free for druids and for anyone with a crystal ball. And you scry on a low level deckhand, so the chance of success is higher. It's not that hard.
you still need to know who the low level deckhand is. You cannot simply try to scry "some guy who works the bilges on the Queen Anne". If you have no knowledge the lackey yourself, that is a +10 modifier to their save PLUS you then need to have some type of connection to them as well. This does not make for a higher chance of success.
The best chance of success for a scry comes from being familiar with the subject and having a piece of them (yes, hair dolls are creepy, but they do have their uses ;) ), imparting a total -15 modifier to their save.
Additionally, Scry is not free. It takes up a 4th level spell slot for a druid.
Besides, all that is really needed to take care of the scry / teleport threat is a Mage's Private Sanctum / Permanency combination on the the ship itself. As a 5th level spell, it would require a 9th level caster minimum which would result in a 270 foot cube, which should more than cover the ship in its entirety. Making it permanent would require a 13th level caster, resulting in a 390 foot cube (if she also cast the Sanctum), and 12,500gp. Seems like a worthwhile investment for any pirate crew in a world where scrying/teleporting pirate hunters are not unheard of.
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You don't cast control water on the wave, you cast it on the bilge after the wave hits to clear it. Any wave that swamps the boat for an hour instantly evaporates.
You can reduce your teleport error by repeated scrying, which is free for druids and for anyone with a crystal ball. And you scry on a low level deckhand, so the chance of success is higher. It's not that hard.
So you use control water to remove the water from your bilge. Great. But it will not allow you to survive if a wave capsize your ship.
In practice you have the equivalent of good efficiency pumps.Then there is the usual problem of immobile spell cast on a mobile object. The spell is cast on a specific volume of space. That volume move with the ship or it is fixed in space?
When the Area of Effect is larger than the object it is very clear that the spell AoE don't move with the object. I don't see why it should move with the ship if the areas is small enough to fit in its hold.
Note that the target is a volume of water, not "the bilge of the ship2.
BTW: minimum CL is 7, that is 70'x70'x14' as an area of effect. Your galley is 70' large?
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Scry: At best you can get to: “Seen casually” is a place that you have seen more than once but with which you are not very familiar. 12% chance of failure, 6% chance of being teleported in some random area that probably is in the middle of the sea.
And you still haven't resolved the bolded part of the requirements "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination".
And you need to know the deckhand to scry him or at least you need a decent description. "You must have some sort of connection (see below) to a creature of which you have no knowledge."
And he get a +5 to his ST.
He make it? No retry for 24 hours.
That is why scry and fry seem so easy. People don't consider the limitations.
Besides, all that is really needed to take care of the scry / teleport threat is a Mage's Private Sanctum / Permanency combination on the the ship itself. As a 5th level spell, it would require a 9th level caster minimum which would result in a 270 foot cube, which should more than cover the ship in its entirety. Making it permanent would require a 13th level caster, resulting in a 390 foot cube (if she also cast the Sanctum), and 12,500gp. Seems like a worthwhile investment for any pirate crew in a world where scrying/teleporting pirate hunters are not unheard of.
Great. Kudos.
Yes...you enforce the rules of the teleport spell. Such as range, knowledge of the destination,capacity, and the consequences of a misjump.
Yea, if you want to make the players use ships after level 9, you have to do something about teleport. In my pirate game, I nerfed many forms for teleportation so that their range is limited. I have a secret explanation for the nerf: it is a side effect of the true source of magic in the world.
This. Teleport isn't as big a problem as people tend to make it into.
I played a seafaring wizard all the way up to 14th-level. He could have teleported anywhere he wanted, but he didn't because he was payed well to stay with the ship and protect it from natural and unnatural hazards.
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I played a seafaring wizard all the way up to 14th-level. He could have teleported anywhere he wanted, but he didn't because he was payed well to stay with the ship and protect it from natural and unnatural hazards.
Yep, I have always thought wizards would make the best pirate captains. Forget greek fire ... you can cast sleep or deep slumber upon the lackeys prior to boarding, charm captives, use fireball for clearing the decks or taking out the sails, etc.
Gods help anyone who encounters a pirate crew of nothing but spell casters...