assume you have 17 dex (+3 modifier)
you make a full-attack action
you get
6+3-2 (manyshot attack, you deal damage twice, except sneak and thelike)
6+3-2 (rapid shot attack)
1+3-2 (-2 everywhere from rapid shot)
so you roll attack 3 times, but you actually shoot 4 arrows, as the first attack is done trough manyshot.
assume bow deals 1d10
you could do 4d10 of damage.
if first attack fails, the two others hit, 2d10
if first attack hits, the two others miss, 2d10
hope it helps, in FAQ the rapid shot has been mentioned, because it doesn't say the attack is at your full base attack bonus.
My Archer wishes he could cast Gravity bow :(
Richard has the right of it ( Not sure where the d10's come from though)
MAny shot is one attack, but two arrows, so str and the like counts as if you hit with two. Three attacks 4 hits with four arrows.
where can I find the Broad Arrows in the Elves of Golarion Book?
Sigh... I feel sorry for your GM.. :-)
The archer is an unbalanced monster in Pathfinder, and with Gravity Bow it just gets sicker.
The Fighter/Wizard/Arcane Archer in my game is devasatating. There are not enough ways for me to counter-act his arrow damage - without being unfair to the player. So many encounters just get pin-cushioned.
Sigh.
I actually just dealt with this not too long ago with my table top group. Dwarf Ranger at level 7. He cast Gravity Bow first and let me tell you...this definitly makes the archer nasty! It didn't help that the first hit was a crit either. But in one round he did about 80 pts of damage!
Have a 10th level ranger with this feat and spell combo and then add a favored enemy at +4 attack and damage on top of it plus a 1d6 sonic dmg with a critical on the first shot with the two arrows and he topped out around 150 hp on the first shot. Oh, and he uses the Greater Deadly Accuracy feat from SGG's Feats of Battle and he is a nightmare under the right circumstances. He went on to hit with the other two shots as well.
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The archer is an unbalanced monster in PathfinderNo he isn't. The Deadly Aim/Rapid Shooter is -4 on all of his attacks, typically has every feat in his build solely focused on a single combat style, is easily stymied by cover (which most DMs don't properly account for by omitting the additional -4 soft-cover penalty for shooting into the fray from behind your own allies), and so on.
There are not enough ways for me to counter-act his arrow damage - without being unfair to the player.
Making every "adjustment" the NPCs take seem perfectly sensible. I.e., the archer's reputation will spread, and bad guys will know in advance what they'll be up against and prepare accordingly (the PCs will find this out somehow). Next group of bad guys have Mirror Image and spend a lot of time hiding around corners or being invisible, fighters have tower shields which they orient toward the archer, wizards cast Web on the corridor to provide concealment, etc.
Make the PCs work to achieve ideal situations. (I.e., same goes for "pounce" barbarians -- don't just hand them 250dpr like candy because your bad guys aren't smart enough to not simply stand there like a target.)
If the archer player starts complaining a lot, arrange for there to be an unusual melee magic item (not too powerful, but cool enough) which only works properly for someone of his class/alignment/deity/whatever. Suggest the player take Quickdraw as his next feat so he's more versatile in combat and doesn't "shut out".
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Have a 10th level ranger with this feat and spell combo and then add a favored enemy at +4 attack and damage on top of it plus a 1d6 sonic dmg with a critical on the first shot with the two arrows and he topped out around 150 hp on the first shot. Oh, and he uses the Greater Deadly Accuracy feat from SGG's Feats of Battle and he is a nightmare under the right circumstances. He went on to hit with the other two shots as well.
All classes are ridiculously powerful when you allow any 3rd-party cheese. (Even the Sonic enhancement is a 3.5 holdover -- it doesn't appear in any Pathfinder source.)
The archer is an unbalanced monster in PathfinderNo he isn't. The Deadly Aim/Rapid Shooter is -4 on all of his attacks, typically has every feat in his build solely focused on a single combat style, is easily stymied by cover (which most DMs don't properly account for by omitting the additional -4 soft-cover penalty for shooting into the fray from behind your own allies), and so on.
I think that this is true, if the DM misunderstands the cover rules (or disregards them entirely) then the archer becomes much stronger.
That's why when i play focused archers (non-switch hitters) i run as fast as i can for improved presice shot (rangers and zen archers can get that as a bonus at 6th)
I can tell you cover is a b%@~!. I play a bard using a whip (which uses the ranged cover rules when I use the reach attack), and I try to pay attention to not get cover.
I'm not sure my GM would care if I just ignore it, but I won't, and you'd be surprised how many things actually give cover that on first glance seem to provide perfect line of sight to the target.
Usually I can work around it by moving to a better spot and since we're low level and only have a single attack it doesn't matter yet. But once I'm going to be full-attacking, I might have to train my melee guys to stand better :)
by lvl 10, moderately intelligent enemies would likely carry around one of several low lvl solutions that just destroy archery. A scroll of wind wall ruins pretty much all archers. I would have trouble seeing how a tactic that ruins almost a third of possible enemies would be considered as being unfair to a single player. Note as people have said, cover makes archery hard, spells that restrict movement like web would also make it harder for archers to reposition to avoid cover. Though making archers is one of my favorite character types, I do know fully well that a few cheap low lvl spells can greatly reduce how effective you are.
Not all monsters can use scrolls though. Windwall does not target creatures so it can't be put into potion form either. Potions that cause a miss chance would work if they are not personal. It is important to remember that but the archer is not working by himself, and the party caster will most likely just dispel the miss chance effect.
I can tell you cover is a b%~@~. I play a bard using a whip (which uses the ranged cover rules when I use the reach attack), and I try to pay attention to not get cover.
I'm not sure my GM would care if I just ignore it, but I won't, and you'd be surprised how many things actually give cover that on first glance seem to provide perfect line of sight to the target.Usually I can work around it by moving to a better spot and since we're low level and only have a single attack it doesn't matter yet. But once I'm going to be full-attacking, I might have to train my melee guys to stand better :)
Focused/dedicated archers can/should be able to full attack (for 2 attacks) at 2nd level (3rd tops), human fighters can do it at 1st (and so can zen archers).
Also we should all remember the existance of partial cover (+2 AC)
The archer is an unbalanced monster in PathfinderNo he isn't. The Deadly Aim/Rapid Shooter is -4 on all of his attacks, typically has every feat in his build solely focused on a single combat style, is easily stymied by cover (which most DMs don't properly account for by omitting the additional -4 soft-cover penalty for shooting into the fray from behind your own allies), and so on.There are not enough ways for me to counter-act his arrow damage - without being unfair to the player.Making every "adjustment" the NPCs take seem perfectly sensible. I.e., the archer's reputation will spread, and bad guys will know in advance what they'll be up against and prepare accordingly (the PCs will find this out somehow). Next group of bad guys have Mirror Image and spend a lot of time hiding around corners or being invisible, fighters have tower shields which they orient toward the archer, wizards cast Web on the corridor to provide concealment, etc.
Make the PCs work to achieve ideal situations. (I.e., same goes for "pounce" barbarians -- don't just hand them 250dpr like candy because your bad guys aren't smart enough to not simply stand there like a target.)
If the archer player starts complaining a lot, arrange for there to be an unusual melee magic item (not too powerful, but cool enough) which only works properly for someone of his class/alignment/deity/whatever. Suggest the player take Quickdraw as his next feat so he's more versatile in combat and doesn't "shut out".
What archer worth his salt doesn't have improved precise shot? Rangers and Zen Archer Monks both get it at level 6, fighters have it at 11.
Cover is not much of a determent. The answer to an archer is to make the archer move more than 5 ft a round, thus denying full-attacks.
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What archer worth his salt doesn't have improved precise shot? Rangers and Zen Archer Monks both get it at level 6, fighters have it at 11.
Anwer: low-level ones, or ones without a lot of feats.
IPS is a good feat, but it's not the greatest thing since sliced bread (i.e., it's even with Weapon Focus:[your ranged weapon] because, while its bonus is larger, you don't use it on every shot).
Cover is not much of a determent. The answer to an archer is to make the archer move more than 5 ft a round, thus denying full-attacks.
Trying to shoot around tower-shields is a pain in the ass.
What archer worth his salt doesn't have improved precise shot? Rangers and Zen Archer Monks both get it at level 6, fighters have it at 11.Anwer: low-level ones, or ones without a lot of feats.
I guess it is semantics but I don't consider level 6 to be very high level. Archers do not gain the Rapid Shot + Manyshot combo until level 6, the same level IPS becomes available. Pre-level 6, archers aren't that much of problem (fewer attacks, less gold for good strength bows) and so you wouldn't need to bring cover to bear against them (more than normal), and after level 6, IPS makes cover a near non-issue. Total cover cuts both ways, the archer can't see you but you can't kill the archer either.
Number of feats is also a non-issue, the three best archer classes (Ranger, Zen Monk, and Fighter) all receive bonus feats for IPS.
I maintain the best way to neutralize an archer is to force them to move, negating their main advantage of consistent full-attacks. That is truly the big advantage they have over a 2-handed melee user. Hit them with pits, black tentacles, sleet storms, etc. Anything that will fully block line of sight or kill them if they don't move.
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You only get IPS at 6th if you're ranger or Zen -- which means you're not a barbarian archer juicing Reckless Abandon or a fighter archer juicing Gloves of Dueling, or both. Otherwise you're waiting until 12th, minimum (more likely 13th) -- and that is definitely not low level.I guess it is semantics but I don't consider level 6 to be very high level.What archer worth his salt doesn't have improved precise shot? Rangers and Zen Archer Monks both get it at level 6, fighters have it at 11.Anwer: low-level ones, or ones without a lot of feats.
Archers do not gain the Rapid Shot + Manyshot combo until level 6, the same level IPS becomes available. Pre-level 6, archers aren't that much of problem (fewer attacks, less gold for good strength bows)The mundane part of a bow should cost less than a fighter's MW full-plate armor...unless you're Hercules or something.
and so you wouldn't need to bring cover to bear against them (more than normal), and after level 6, IPS makes cover a near non-issue. Total cover cuts both ways, the archer can't see you but you can't kill the archer either.
Number of feats is also a non-issue, the three best archer classes (Ranger, Zen Monk, and Fighter) all receive bonus feats for IPS.
The most damaging archer class is a barbarian/fighter specialist. Attack-bonus is stupendously absurd.
The archer is an unbalanced monster in PathfinderNo he isn't. The Deadly Aim/Rapid Shooter is -4 on all of his attacks, typically has every feat in his build solely focused on a single combat style, is easily stymied by cover (which most DMs don't properly account for by omitting the additional -4 soft-cover penalty for shooting into the fray from behind your own allies), and so on.There are not enough ways for me to counter-act his arrow damage - without being unfair to the player.Making every "adjustment" the NPCs take seem perfectly sensible. I.e., the archer's reputation will spread, and bad guys will know in advance what they'll be up against and prepare accordingly (the PCs will find this out somehow). Next group of bad guys have Mirror Image and spend a lot of time hiding around corners or being invisible, fighters have tower shields which they orient toward the archer, wizards cast Web on the corridor to provide concealment, etc.
Make the PCs work to achieve ideal situations. (I.e., same goes for "pounce" barbarians -- don't just hand them 250dpr like candy because your bad guys aren't smart enough to not simply stand there like a target.)
If the archer player starts complaining a lot, arrange for there to be an unusual melee magic item (not too powerful, but cool enough) which only works properly for someone of his class/alignment/deity/whatever. Suggest the player take Quickdraw as his next feat so he's more versatile in combat and doesn't "shut out".
I use all of these tactics and more, but they do not stop the archer from being an unbalanced monster. With Manyshot, Rapidshot, Deadly Aim, Precise Shot, Gravity Bow, etc. - the archer in my campaign is putting out massive damage from 30 feet away.
I have used cover, being underwater, mirror image, blur, invis, wind wall - all of that. But I can't use all of it for every encounter, so some encounters get drilled.
Part of me likes that the archer is deadly - they should be. But this seems a bit over the top to me.
You only get IPS at 6th if you're ranger or Zen -- which means you're not a barbarian archer juicing Reckless Abandon or a fighter archer juicing Gloves of Dueling, or both. Otherwise you're waiting until 12th, minimum (more likely 13th) -- and that is definitely not low level.I guess it is semantics but I don't consider level 6 to be very high level.What archer worth his salt doesn't have improved precise shot? Rangers and Zen Archer Monks both get it at level 6, fighters have it at 11.Anwer: low-level ones, or ones without a lot of feats.Archers do not gain the Rapid Shot + Manyshot combo until level 6, the same level IPS becomes available. Pre-level 6, archers aren't that much of problem (fewer attacks, less gold for good strength bows)The mundane part of a bow should cost less than a fighter's MW full-plate armor...unless you're Hercules or something.The most damaging archer class is a barbarian/fighter specialist. Attack-bonus is stupendously absurd.and so you wouldn't need to bring cover to bear against them (more than normal), and after level 6, IPS makes cover a near non-issue. Total cover cuts both ways, the archer can't see you but you can't kill the archer either.
Number of feats is also a non-issue, the three best archer classes (Ranger, Zen Monk, and Fighter) all receive bonus feats for IPS.
The Zen Archer and the Ranger gain IPS at level 6, 2/3 of the "classic" archer classes. Barbarian and fighter gain it at level 11 (prereq is BAB 11, you can meet the feats' prereq the same level you take the feat, and everyone gets a feat at 11).
As for the Barbarian/fighter monster you made, you got me, cover will be effective until level 11. But you cannot assume all archers will be of that build (one I had never seen until now). Most will be ranger, zen monk or fighter.
how is gravity bow breaking anything? it lasts minutes. is your archer spending a standard action in the first round of every combat? If so, he probably isn't gaining too much from using gravity bow.
Also I think we are over-hyping archer dpr. It is consistent and above average but considering the ever increasing number of ways for melee characters to get directly into melee and full attack, the archers advantage of getting to use more full attack actions is quickly disappearing. flying pouncers(overland flight lets them do this all day) can pretty much always get a full attack, the new dimension door feats get you full attacks, mounted skirmisher, mobile fighter archetype, coordinated charge teamwork feat, or parties that let the wizard dim door them in. What is not disappearing are magical ways to disrupt them. I would say that repel wood also stops archers but I am not 100% certain how that spell works. A bunch of other winds spells also indirectly mess up archery in addition to being generally good(control winds will stop archers in addition to just generally being awesome).
What it comes down to though is that archers progressively run into more trouble the higher lvl they become. Considering that full attack actions become increasingly more important as you lvl and most melee types gain access to options enabling more full attacks as they get to higher lvls, the archer as a class type has some poor prospects. They do have a nice and powerful sweet spot around lvls 6 to 11 or so though( I have played and enjoyed tons of archers in that zone). but by lvls 10 to 14 most melee fighters have found ways to get full attacks on the approach to an enemy and most enemies with the ability to use cheap magical items will have access to anti-archer effects. So your archer will be moving alot, or attempting to umd a wand of dispel magic, or having the party casters using dispel magic.
Your reply is so broad as to be useless. It's generally helpful to use concrete examples instead of telling people they are playing wrong.
Just picked up Ultimate Combat, some pretty nice stuff for archers in there. Snap Shot - threaten 5 feet with a bow. Improved snap shot - threaten an additional 10 feet with a bow. Combat reflexes is looking good.
Just picked up Ultimate Combat, some pretty nice stuff for archers in there. Snap Shot - threaten 5 feet with a bow. Improved snap shot - threaten an additional 10 feet with a bow. Combat reflexes is looking good.
I am only allowing stuff from the UC on a case by case basis. I told the players I would use something from the book, then make it available to the players.
Of course the archer saw the snap shot feats right away. I don't see myself allowing those feats into the game anytime soon.
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I use all of these tactics and more, but they do not stop the archer from being an unbalanced monster. With Manyshot, Rapidshot, Deadly Aim, Precise Shot, Gravity Bow, etc. - the archer in my campaign is putting out massive damage from 30 feet away.
I have used cover, being underwater, mirror image, blur, invis, wind wall - all of that. But I can't use all of it for every encounter, so some encounters get drilled.
Well, I suppose you could introduce him to a Greater Vital Strike monster which moves 50' and delivers 100hp on a single attack. >:D
That'll make him stand back a ways.
"Sure! Come in close so you can tickle me with 'Snap Shot'! I won't bite too hard--promise!"
I did not say that all enemies of any kind could use scrolls. I just said that moderately intelligent enemies. So outsiders, humanoids with class lvls, etc would be pretty likely to have relatively cheap methods of hindering archers. Many less intelligent monsters do not also pose terribly complex problems for parties anyway since their forms of attack are more limited.
Also I know arcane casters can help out the archer. I did not think people were asking if a wizard could dispel these simple spell effects. But if the archer doesn't get help from the casters in the party or the party doesn't memorize a ton of dispel magic, it could be troublesome. Also, a relatively unimportant enemy could be used to umd the scroll of wind wall by the time the party is lvl 10(I specifically stated the lvl where the archer could expect this to start becoming a more common issue) as where if the party wizard has to step in to dispel stuff, the party is the one losing a larger chunk of their actions.
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The enemy uses his anti-archer action, and the party caster dismisses it. The archer just holds his action. In a game world where archers are often countered it only makes sense for the party to make sure the archer is helped out.
UMD is risky. It might be better to have some low level caster do it. The party's, most likely, higher level caster dismisses the spell, and the noob is killed by the archer. This does take away the party caster's action, which you mentioned, but it does not really hinder the archer. He will most likely target the hindering person to make sure they don't cause anymore trouble. Of course I am also assuming a party that works well together. If they are a bunch of "me" type players then.........