Ninja questions: Extra ninja trick feat and ki pool totals?

[wolflord]

1. I don't see any feats for extra ninja trick like there is one for extra rogue talent. Is this by design or will it come later?

2. Can a ninja take the extra rogue talent feat? Must he first take the ninja trick that gives him a rogue talent and THEN take it, or does that not count as a rogue talent class feature?

3. If I had a ninja with a -2 CHA bonus would I have 0 ki until 6th lvl or is it min 1 or min 0? Ninjas get 1/2 level + cha bonus for ki pool.

4. If said uncharismatic ninja took the extra ki feat how would his ki pool be calculated? Assuming lvl 2 ninja, would it be 1(half lvl) -2 (Cha) +2 (feat) = 1 total OR would it be 1(half lvl) -1 (Cha, min 0) +2 (feat) = 2 OR something else?

Thanks!

[Azure_Zero]

wolflord wrote:

1. I don't see any feats for extra ninja trick like there is one for extra rogue talent. Is this by design or will it come later?

2. Can a ninja take the extra rogue talent feat? Must he first take the ninja trick that gives him a rogue talent and THEN take it, or does that not count as a rogue talent class feature?

3. If I had a ninja with a -2 CHA bonus would I have 0 ki until 6th lvl or is it min 1 or min 0? Ninjas get 1/2 level + cha bonus for ki pool.

4. If said uncharismatic ninja took the extra ki feat how would his ki pool be calculated? Assuming lvl 2 ninja, would it be 1(half lvl) -2 (Cha) +2 (feat) = 1 total OR would it be 1(half lvl) -1 (Cha, min 0) +2 (feat) = 2 OR something else?

Thanks!

I would be interested in this as well

[Allia Thren]

1+2) I would let the ninja take the extra rogue talent feat, and apply it to Ninja tricks. It's a bit of handwaving I guess, but every single other class has an "Extra class feature" feat, so it makes sense that the ninja has too. It was probably an oversight since it's essentially a rogue archetype.

3) it says "Charisma modifier" so that means the penalty applies. It doesn't say "mininum 1" like it does with alot of other "1/2 class level" stuff, so yeah I guess that ninja wouldn't get any ki till level 6. Why you'd want to play a ninja with 6 cha though, I don't understand. Would you play a fighter with 6 str, or a wizard with 6 int?

4) I'd say 2 ki. You get 2 extra to the 0 you have. But not 100% sure

[BigNorseWolf]

For the clerics channel, one of the devs has said you subtract to negative whatever and then add. It would be 1-2+2 =1.

[Allia Thren]

Ah ok, guess it uses the same formula then here as well.

I FAQ'ed the OP, mostly for the rogue trick question though, maybe we get a dev answer.

[Mike Schneider]

Quote:

Can a ninja take the extra rogue talent feat? Must he first take the ninja trick that gives him a rogue talent and THEN take it, or does that not count as a rogue talent class feature?

<FAQ>

Bump-itty ump-ump.

[ArcTanGentleman]

I wonder if you could take the Ninja Trick that nets you a Rogue Talent, then take the Rogue Talent that nets you a Ninja Trick, then pick a Ninja Trick.
Ninja Trick: Rogue Talent(NinjaTrick(EX): Forgotten Trick(Ex))
Wheefun.

[Corbin Dallas]

We had a similar situation come up in our game several weeks ago.
I kept in mind that the Ninja class is a new Alternate class...

1. It states that the ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick, so I didn't allow them to "ninja" the rouge talent to net a ninja talent. Maybe that was mean but that felt like a loophole. Heh

2. The Ki pool formula would have no minimum Ki points, or charisma would be a dump stat. That could get unbalanced in a hurry.

Hopefully there is some Dev input at some point.

[Hayato Ken]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

For the clerics channel, one of the devs has said you subtract to negative whatever and then add. It would be 1-2+2 =1.

Not right for ki here.

Its (halflevel)+(Cha mod)/2+(extra ki feat).
In this case: (1 half level) + (-2 Cha mod)/2 = 1 +2 =3
Minimum ki is always 1 i would say, as with other similar working abilities. Even making CHa a negative dump stat has no big impact on this, you then have only one ki point and if you spend that loose all of the ki pool abilities. But without that ki point you loose all that iconic stuff too, what would be kind of silly. The 1 ki point is similar to cantrips and orizons of casters.
Adding a feat then for 2 points more is surely balanced.

And yes ninjas can take extra rogue talent, since they are rogues. There is no question about that. By RAW its a question if it counts for rogue talents only or if you can only take ninja tricks, but logic commands restricting it on ninja tricks, since those replace the rogue talents.

[Corbin Dallas]

I agree with you Hayato in general. Except I don't allow minimum 1 Ki. It doesn't specifically say "minimum 1". Maybe that is harsh. Heh...
I restricted "extra ninja trick" with my player, I agree with your reasoning on that as well.

[Mortificator]

wolflord wrote:

1. I don't see any feats for extra ninja trick like there is one for extra rogue talent. Is this by design or will it come later?

I know it's a five month old thread, but I'd love to see something official here too...

[Krulack]

Bump. On the same page as Shotan, especially since I just saw James Jacobs's (creative director) post that it was an oversight that it was left out. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=197?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Qu estions-Here

[garvdart]

Krulack wrote:

Bump. On the same page as Shotan, especially since I just saw James Jacobs's (creative director) post that it was an oversight that it was left out. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=197?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Qu estions-Here

"Prerequisite: Rogue talent class feature. general feat..can only be taken at odd levels.

Benefit: You gain one additional rogue talent. You must meet all of the prerequisites for this rogue talent.
requisites of a rogue talent...wait no requisite but level...wait that's advanced rogue talent..oh wait that would be a master trick for ninja.

Special: You can gain Extra Rogue Talent multiple times."

ninja 1-9 availbe tricks too chose from are and will only list the two around otherwise wall of text...+

Forgotten Trick (Ex): recall one trick taught to her by her ancient masters. When she uses this ability, she selects one ninja trick (not a master trick or rogue talent) otherwise a hidden blade forgotten trick underhanded would be broken. at just level 4...but using two tricks is not..since its something you've learned and can only do so = cha bonus/day..

Rogue Talent: The ninja can select a rogue talent in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja can select this talent multiple times

why would the put that restriction on forgotten trick. because access too that many abilities would 1 slow things down and make the ninja into a prestige class with access too all of its tricks..plus a normal rogues..

Rogue Talent; voila I have access too the rogue talent class feature.
last but not least

Combat Trick: A ninja who selects this trick gains a bonus combat feat.

master trick with the following...of...
Advanced Talents: The ninja can select a rogue talent from the list of Advanced Talents in place of a ninja trick.

so unless there is official ruling about extra trick...I would rule that yes a ninja could select this for any ninja trick during her feet level..and if level 10 or above than you can select it as a master trick.

lets look at prestige class shadowdancer 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, This functions as the rogue talent class feature. A shadowdancer cannot select an individual talent more than once. If a shadowdancer has the advanced talents rogue class feature, she can chose from the advanced talents list instead.

So a pure fighter/shadow dancer could use any ninja or rogue talent but none of the master, or advanced.

so a ninja taking extra trick can select either a ninja trick, or a rogue talent, while a ninja 10+ could select ninja trick,rogue talent, advanced talent or master trick.

[Apocryphile]

Bump!

[Lobolusk]

bump

[Lobolusk]

double bump

[Lobolusk]

wed morning bump

[Lobolusk]

mid way through the day bump mark the faq people

[Seraphimpunk]

I wanted to know this recently as well.

[JustynThyme]

No need to bump, guys. It's answered by the rules themselves. As garvdart pointed out, one of the Ninja Tricks is Rogue Talent. Tis means a ninja has access to the Rogue Talent class feature (through his Ninja Trick class feature, just as rogues have access to the Ninja Trick class feature through the Rogue Talent class feature), and thus that prereq for the Extra Rogue Talent feat is satisfied. The feat doesn't say the character can't take the Ninja Trick Rogue Talent when selecting the feat, so a ninja can take the feat to select a Ninja Trick. Just ignore the "can't take a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent" stuff to avoid headaches. Obviously, a ninja would learn the ninja version of a rogue talent with the same name.

[Bigdaddyjug]

As a PFS GM, I would have to rule that a ninja could not take the Extra Rogue Talent feat. Nowhere on the ninja write-up does it have a class feature called Rogue Talents, so it does not meet the prerequisites for the feat. I don't agree with this, but I feel it is the RAW.

[Shadowlord]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

As a PFS GM, I would have to rule that a ninja could not take the Extra Rogue Talent feat. Nowhere on the ninja write-up does it have a class feature called Rogue Talents, so it does not meet the prerequisites for the feat. I don't agree with this, but I feel it is the RAW.

So, Archeologist Bards and Shadowdancers can take the feat but the alternate Rogue class can't? That seems pretty stupid, probably an oversight.

Alternate classes are just expanded archetypes. Meaning, the Ninja class is just an extensively archetyped Rogue. And they do have access to the Rogue Talents, it's a sub-option of the Ninja Trick class feature. If a Ninja wanted to they could take Rogue talents in place of every trick.

I could be wrong here and it could be completely intentional but it could just be exactly what it looks like, an omission of specific language. Without errata specifically stating it's meant to be excluded, banning a Ninja from taking this is almost as ridiculous as not allowing Sneak Attack for Rogues/Ninjas attacking from Stealth. People argued up and down it wasn't RAW, until designers came online and said the RAW was always meant to allow Sneak Attack from Stealth and quoted the sections of RAW that were meant to convey exactly that. It just wasn't written as explicitly as some people thought it should be to allow a game that is supposed to work, work the way it's supposed to.

[Bigdaddyjug]

It is probably an oversight. As I said, I don't agree with it, but it is RAW.

[JustynThyme]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

As a PFS GM, I would have to rule that a ninja could not take the Extra Rogue Talent feat. Nowhere on the ninja write-up does it have a class feature called Rogue Talents, so it does not meet the prerequisites for the feat. I don't agree with this, but I feel it is the RAW.

Incorrect. As I stated, there is a Ninja Trick called "Rogue Talent" which specifically gives them access to Rogue Talents, thus satisfying the requirement of having Rogue Talents. It can't be more clear, and it's RAW.