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Not every ad hominem attack is an insult, not every insult is an ad hominem argument. (For example, accusations of bias wouldn't be insulting in most cases, while just insulting someone without making a point isn't really an ad hominem argument.) If you think someone's insulting someone else, there's "Personal insult/abusive". Personally abusive posts seem to have an extremely short shelf-life.
In fact, "You're a hypocrite because one time you made a non-contributing post!" is itself an ad hominem argument, although hardly an insulting one. If I've made some inappropriate, noncontributing comment, then go ahead and report it. It's not as though I'm perfect (or even consistent or not a hypocrite, most days), and if the thread is better off without whatever dumb thing I said, then it should be deleted.
It's not about winning fights, just cleaning up garbage and making it more difficult to disrupt a discussion with garbage.
But that's just it... if a poster has lost their temper or resorted to fallacious tactics, all his/her valid and ration points and opinions cease to matter. At that point, you are failing to convince anyone of anything beyond doubts about your personal character. You have stopped having a civil discussion of ideas. So don't complain about a smurf showing up then, because the smurfing is the least offensive thing in the thread.
A discussion isn't about scoring points for the high school debate team, or settling scores with another poster you have history with, or trying to prove how smart you are. That's anti-discussion; when that line is crossed, don't be surprised when people pop up to remind you you're being silly.
We are all adults here; we should aspire to act like it. We shouldn't expect the mods to clean up our comments; they have far more important things to do then continuously fight fires on the messageboards. If you can't reply in a civil and rational manner, then its time for a break from the thread. And if it dawns on you that the person you're GRARing with is completely entrenched and not going to listen to your opinion, then it's perfectly reasonable to walk away and not waste your energy on them. That doesn't mean you've lost; it means you've figured out you're wasting your time trying to slay a windmill.
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Or a string of sock puppet postings with inane comments. Sad to say, but Aberzombie has a particular bad habit of doing this.
It's, IMO, childish and extremely passive aggressive.
Oh noes! Well, I guess I've been schooled by your far more mature stance. Very well done! I salute you!
I shall, from this point, refrain from upsetting your delicate sensibilities.
Or not.
Yeah, don't think so.
But I will flag your post for insulting me.
Mmmmmm.......
....beer
Almost forgot....
.....
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Or a string of sock puppet postings with inane comments. Sad to say, but Aberzombie has a particular bad habit of doing this.
It's, IMO, childish and extremely passive aggressive.
I call shennanigans. Aberzombie is the undisputed master of the sock puppet. If a thread is going to off-topic, an Aberzombie Brand Sock Puppet means it will go off-topic in a hilarious way. Have you ever even clicked on the profiles of these things? They're peppered with jokes.
I'm not normally one for going off the handle and saying outlandish things, but, if you don't find Aberzombies' sock puppets to be generally funny and often hilarious, you fail at humor, life, and will likely die a withered husk of a human weeping tears of blood.
Don't get me wrong - there are some s@$!ty sock pupeteers out there (take me for example, whose shtick begins and ends with poor riffs on poster names), but Aberzombie is not one of them.
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Can't we all just get along?
Can't we all just get along?
Smurf it no.
Can't we all just get along?Smurf it no.
What he said! Smurf!
What he said! Smurf!Can't we all just get along?Smurf it no.
Damn you smurfs!!!
shakes fist
But that's just it... if a poster has lost their temper or resorted to fallacious tactics, all his/her valid and ration points and opinions cease to matter.
Disagree.
If someone has made several valid, supportable, well-argued points, and that someone then suddenly throws a temper tantrum, their latest action does not cause me to immediately invalidate any prior valid points.
Although it will make me very cautious about reading them carefully in future.
(Alternately, if you'd prefer to dismiss and invalidate this, your mother snorts gooseberries.)
Or a string of sock puppet postings with inane comments. Sad to say, but Aberzombie has a particular bad habit of doing this.
It's, IMO, childish and extremely passive aggressive.
Oh noes! Well, I guess I've been schooled by your far more mature stance. Very well done! I salute you!
I shall, from this point, refrain from upsetting your delicate sensibilities.
See, what you're missing Scott, and it falls squarely on my shoulders that I didn't explain it properly, is that I usually have a lot of respect for your "normal" posts, while your other passive aggressive asshattery (as evidenced already here) just annoys the hell out of me (and others it would seem). You obviously get some kind of kick out of it, thus you (and others who do the same) are obviously trolling, which is against the messageboard policies.
Or a string of sock puppet postings with inane comments. Sad to say, but Aberzombie has a particular bad habit of doing this.
It's, IMO, childish and extremely passive aggressive.
I call shennanigans. Aberzombie is the undisputed master of the sock puppet. If a thread is going to off-topic, an Aberzombie Brand Sock Puppet means it will go off-topic in a hilarious way. Have you ever even clicked on the profiles of these things? They're peppered with jokes.
I'm not normally one for going off the handle and saying outlandish things, but, if you don't find Aberzombies' sock puppets to be generally funny and often hilarious, you fail at humor, life, and will likely die a withered husk of a human weeping tears of blood.
Don't get me wrong - there are some s#~#ty sock pupeteers out there (take me for example, whose shtick begins and ends with poor riffs on poster names), but Aberzombie is not one of them.
"Funny" sock puppeteering or not, it's still trolling and spamming and is against messageboard policy.
We are all adults here; we should aspire to act like it. We shouldn't expect the mods to clean up our comments
And numerous noncontributing posts of sock puppets and little blue men is the adult way to go about it? Yeah, I'd have to strongly disagree with that.
The little blue guys are also used when you have already flagged 1/2 a dozen posts in the thread and days later, these otherwise subtle insults are still there.
Isn't that the same as saying that you don't trust the moderators to do their job?
If you (and others) have flagged a post and it's still there, chances are that the moderators just haven't gotten around to it yet or they don't think it's worth moderating. Thus by introducing the little blue men, you defacto say that your opinion is worth more than the moderators and if they won't kowtow to your wishes then you have to act out against them.How mature behaviour and a reasoned response from you...
Senior Software Developer
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So, my takeaway from this thread is that threadcrapping/intentional derailment is a permitted and respected form of behaviour on these forums. I'll be sure to keep it in mind.
I'm not thrilled with threadcrapping or intentional derailment. You'll note if you read over this thread that most opinions on the matter have come from community members, not Paizo staff. You might read into that an implication that we're on the fence about the matter, and we're curious to see what the current zeitgeist is. Website cultures evolve over time. We don't have a flag for "off-topic", and not a huge history of removing posts for going off topic outside of product discussion and customer service threads. (We do move threads that go seriously off-topic into the off-topic forum.)
We might start moderating our boards someday for on-topic behavior as opposed to straight-up jerk watching, but keep in mind that everybody who does moderation here has a full-time job doing something else for Paizo—it's nobody's full-time job, and I'm cautious about committing us to monitoring several thousand posts a day for being on or off topic.
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Sometimes, people need to be reminded that the topic that they're so heated about is (usually about make-believe elves and wizards, and therefore) not really worth getting "angry-academic" about.
On those occasions, I'm glad for the OTD gang (or others!) stepping in with some humorous sock-puppetry. I've even been known to do so myself from time to time, with varying levels of success. I can definitely think of more than one time that I wish someone had derailed the thread I was arguing so passionately about, if only so that I'd have chilled the hell out and taken a step back to look at myself. Which, you know, we all need to do from time to time, I think.
You have my tuppence.
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See, what you're missing Scott, and it falls squarely on my shoulders that I didn't explain it properly, is that I usually have a lot of respect for your "normal" posts, while your other passive aggressive asshattery (as evidenced already here) just annoys the hell out of me (and others it would seem). You obviously get some kind of kick out of it, thus you (and others who do the same) are obviously trolling, which is against the messageboard policies.
Gee wiz Claus, I'm sorry if my "asshattery/inanity" (passive-aggressive or otherwise) offended your gentle nature. It pains me to think that you and others might be so annoyed. You're wisdom is so....wisdomy! Obviously, I must be a lowly troll. That explains the way my finger grew back.
Or, maybe it's just that time of the month for some people.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The last time I commented on that sort of behaviour, one of the more well known posters here told me there were lots of other forums on the internet if I didn't like what's customary here on the Paizo forums.I may still be a poster on these forums, but that pretty much concluded any illusions I had that I particularly wanted to be considered a part of the gaming community here.
I figured this was directed at me, but it's so hard to keep track of what I've done or said to offend people. But, thanks to another well known poster, I finally found it.
So, look all, and behold the terrible things I said that drove Mr. Ryan to forever be an exile of the community, lingering on the fringes, never to be included...
Ya know, I rarely, if ever, play any type of seniority card because, well, it's pretty stupid and meaningless and there is no correlation between the value of what someone has to say and how long they've been posting here at Paizo.But, when it comes to whinging about off-topic posts, and smfing, and the general silliness of the Paizo regulars, all I've got to say is we were here first, we established a culture we liked, and that's the way it currently is.
Good luck changing it by trying to get the mods to crack down on us. I suspect they like the silliness we cultivate at its present (fairly reasonable) levels. Yes, it may deny you the chance to have that oh-so-important 10 page thread about why killing puppies is not a lawful good act or why we should kill whales for jesus, but somehow I suspect you will survive.
And, if not, I'd like to note that there are literally millions of other online communities out there, maybe one of which you may find more to your taste.
Me? I like Paizo the way it is. I like the smfs, I like the silly asides and funny avatars, I like coming to this virtual Cheers and having a good time with my drinking buddies. You're more than welcome to pull up a stool, but don't expect us to change to accomodate whatever you think is appropriate and proper in an online community.
Hmmm...still seems about right to me.
See, what you're missing Scott, and it falls squarely on my shoulders that I didn't explain it properly, is that I usually have a lot of respect for your "normal" posts, while your other passive aggressive asshattery (as evidenced already here) just annoys the hell out of me (and others it would seem). You obviously get some kind of kick out of it, thus you (and others who do the same) are obviously trolling, which is against the messageboard policies.
Gee wiz Claus, I'm sorry if my "asshattery/inanity" (passive-aggressive or otherwise) offended your gentle nature. It pains me to think that you and others might be so annoyed. You're wisdom is so....wisdomy! Obviously, I must be a lowly troll. That explains the way my finger grew back.
Or, maybe it's just that time of the month for some people.
Who's the sensitive one now? Some criticism and you go all sarcastic and defensive?
Whatever, if you can't take some criticism and truth without resorting to that kind of answer, do continue with your thing, I'll continue reporting violations against the messageboard policies..|
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I figured this was directed at me, but it's so hard to keep track of what I've done or said to offend people. But, thanks to another well known poster, I finally found it.
Damn your aggressive/aggresive inanity/asshattery/butthurtinducingmeaness!
shakes fist
So, look all, and behold the terrible things I said that drove Mr. Ryan to forever be an exile of the community, lingering on the fringes, never to be included...
Hey, I remember that! It made me laugh. Does that make me a bad person?
Hey!
I checked this thread out yesterday and it was boring.
My back is turned and someone calls Aberzombie a "passive-aggressive asshat?" WTF? Why didn't someone call me?
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See, what you're missing Scott, and it falls squarely on my shoulders that I didn't explain it properly, is that I usually have a lot of respect for your "normal" posts, while your other passive aggressive asshattery (as evidenced already here) just annoys the hell out of me (and others it would seem). You obviously get some kind of kick out of it, thus you (and others who do the same) are obviously trolling, which is against the messageboard policies.
Gee wiz Claus, I'm sorry if my "asshattery/inanity" (passive-aggressive or otherwise) offended your gentle nature. It pains me to think that you and others might be so annoyed. You're wisdom is so....wisdomy! Obviously, I must be a lowly troll. That explains the way my finger grew back.
Or, maybe it's just that time of the month for some people.
Who's the sensitive one now? Some criticism and you go all sarcastic and defensive?
Whatever, if you can't take some criticism and truth without resorting to that kind of answer, do continue with your thing, I'll continue reporting violations against the messageboard policies..
I'd say that criticism and truth aren't exactly what you're peddling. You seem to be just an angry person with an axe to grind and decided to make me a target. I don't know why.
If you could, perhaps, point me to some evidence of my supposed transactions against whatever you deem appropriate behavior, I will most certainly take such things into consideration. However, I won't hold my breath waiting.
That's right Sebastian, let a select few have the fun they have, no worries about chasing away any potential customers, because we know that Paizo don't care about those. What do they need them for anyway? It's not like they make a living off of them or anything.
"We were here first!" doesn't excuse behaving like uncouth children and obviously parts of the community don't find that kind of behaviour okay and welcoming (as this and former threads are evidence of). Maybe YOU (and the other select few) should take THIS as an opportunity to take a step back and see if you could modify YOUR behaviour... instead of just telling everyone else to do so.
Or take your own advice and if all you want to do is frequent your local "Cheers" and have a good time with your drinking buddies you should find a place more suited to that? There are, after all, "literally millions of other online communities out there" - and this isn't yours, it's Paizo's.
Now, do I want anyone to leave? No, I don't, I just would like "the regulars" to stop treating the messageboards like your own private sanctuary where you can run wild and stop dissing others with contrary opinions to you - at least in threads others have started.
It's quite simple, if you find something offensive, flag it and move on!
How many times do you have to be told that?
If you want to shoot the mouth with your "local drinking buddies" around here, start a thread in the off-topic section and go wild.
I'd say that criticism and truth aren't exactly what you're peddling. You seem to be just an angry person with an axe to grind and decided to make me a target. I don't know why.
If you could, perhaps, point me to some evidence of my supposed transactions against whatever you deem appropriate behavior, I will most certainly take such things into consideration. However, I won't hold my breath waiting.
I'm not an angry person with an axe to grind. I just remember you as the most egregious "offender" of the sock puppet disruptions (I didn't say you were the only one).
Truth: Trolling is against the forum policy
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
Evidence: Just start with this f*+$ing thread!
So, you can stop holding your undead breath now.
Hey!
I checked this thread out yesterday and it was boring.
My back is turned and someone calls Aberzombie a "passive-aggressive asshat?" WTF? Why didn't someone call me?
Correction, no one called Aberzombie an asshat, only his behaviour in some instances!
GRAR!!!
That's all, really.
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...If you want to shoot the mouth with your "local drinking buddies" around here, start a thread in the off-topic section and go wild.Except that doesn't quite work, because other people may well read those threads.
There was an example recently on one of the Forums Are Way Too Long threads, where some opinions were exchanged by regulars about posters on other threads, and loh and behold at least one of those posters showed up on the Forums Are Way Too Long thread in question and started flagging and biting back in posts.
As far as I understand, at present only the Paizo staff, PFS Venture Captains, and RPGSuperstar judges get secret threads where they can discuss things 'in private'.
Well, then either ignore them or use the flag and move on maneuver and let the moderators sort it out.
Correction, no one called Aberzombie an asshat, only his behaviour in some instances!Hey!
I checked this thread out yesterday and it was boring.
My back is turned and someone calls Aberzombie a "passive-aggressive asshat?" WTF? Why didn't someone call me?
Did you at least call him passive-aggressive?
Did you at least call him passive-aggressive?Correction, no one called Aberzombie an asshat, only his behaviour in some instances!Hey!
I checked this thread out yesterday and it was boring.
My back is turned and someone calls Aberzombie a "passive-aggressive asshat?" WTF? Why didn't someone call me?
I'm taking screenshots of it, for when my children ask me what "ironic" means.
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Smurf!
On the other hand, a "WARNING FAWTL CONTENT INSIDE" flag would sure come in handy sometimes...
Hmm...somehow, I think something is coming over wrong into Polish, or back out of Polish, or something.
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I have to say that from my perspective that I found the jocularity of the Paizo boards fairly welcoming to someone who is new to community and a customer.
That said, I don't know that I interpret things the way you do and I think its worth noting that if the community has a flavor or culture that is informed by its longest (or most prolific or loud or what have you) participating members and, more importantly, maintained or allowed by the powers that be it would seem to me that they are operating on the sure footing. ie. What they do isn't perceived as trolling in many circumstances.
I'll concede to rampant haiku posting and some other things in threads that seem to be flaming from the sky like a bright meteorite falling towards a gas station and I know that I am far more *ahem* subtle than others on this board but I'm not sure that the FAWTLers or the "old timers" has systemically created a culture where others can't be heard. Perhaps my experience has been different than yours.
Edit: clarified some things.
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Smurfing was confusing the first time I saw it, but it seemed to have the desired effect of a fire suppression system in that particular flaming thread. I found it an interesting way of community self-policing. There have been times I thought 'threadcrapping' of any sort was used too early, while discussion was still civil. But there have been many more instances where a small group of people derail a thread of real interest to me with an endless repetitive argument about what I consider an off-topic, unimportant detail.
I find both annoying, but Smurfing sometimes has a beneficial purpose when used judiciously. On the other hand, I often can't find information I'd love to have because a rule thread is so congested with fruitless arguments.
I've been on other boards where any spam or OT posts are immediately deleted. They end up with a very technical feel and aren't much fun.
My observations, for what they're worth. I don't really have an answer, GG.
...I have to say that from my perspective that I found the jocularity of the Paizo boards fairly welcoming to someone who is new to community and a customer.
That said, I don't know that I interpret things the way you do and I think its worth noting that if the community has a flavor or culture that is informed by its longest (or most prolific or loud or what have you) participating members and, more importantly, maintained or allowed by the powers that be it would seem to me that they are operating on the sure footing. ie. What they do isn't perceived as trolling in many circumstances.
I'll concede to rampant haiku posting and some other things in threads that seem to be flaming from the sky like a bright meteorite falling towards a gas station and I know that I am far more *ahem* subtle than others on this board but I'm not sure that the FAWTLers or the "old timers" has systemically created a culture where others can't be heard. Perhaps my experience has been different than yours.
Edit: clarified some things.
I'm not exactly a newbie around here either, I've been here for several years. So the unwelcome part is just what others upthread (and in other, earlier threads about similar topics) have reported.
The abundance of trolling by some of the other regulars have, to my eye, however, increased since I first came here.That's what my biggest beef is with. Why do they feel the need to exert their particular brand of "justice" on the boards when there are already tools for handling anything they might disagree with or think merits the attention of moderators? What do they hope to accomplish?
Clearly it hasn't worked, so despite Charles Evans' optimism upthread, since they continue to do so, so they should stop it.
It appears as if it often does more to anger the people participating in a thread than cool things down, so it actually has the opposite effect.
Thus it seems more to just be for their jollies than to actually try to do something constructive.
At least with the three-apple-high-avvies, you know not to read if you are looking for something related to a topic of the non-smnrf kind.
...ignore them...
...ignore them...
...ignore them...
...ignore them...
...ignore them...
...ignore them...
...ignore them...
...ignore them...
...ignore them...
...ignore them...
...ignore them...
...ignore them...
Sorry for inserting a link you never intended, GG. I did it for a cause.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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That's right Sebastian, let a select few have the fun they have, no worries about chasing away any potential customers, because we know that Paizo don't care about those.
Uh...no one lets us have fun. Nor do I have any authority to deny anyone else the ability to have fun. Sheesh, just ignore the stuff you don't like. It's a baseline skill that's useful not just on the internet, but also on a long car ride with your 6 year old sister. You don't need a fancy computer or magical script, just the basic maturity to not respond to (or, better yet, read) those who offend you.
Not that hard.
"We were here first!" doesn't excuse behaving like uncouth children and obviously parts of the community don't find that kind of behaviour okay and welcoming (as this and former threads are evidence of).
Hi, welcome to the internet. You must be new here. Let me get you a name tag.
Maybe YOU (and the other select few) should take THIS as an opportunity to take a step back and see if you could modify YOUR behaviour... instead of just telling everyone else to do so.
Let me clarify. I don't give a f+&% if you change your behavior or not. You can start posting Twighlight slashfic in the rules forums for all I care.
Sure, I'll mock you. I'm not your mom, I don't have an obligation to protect and nurture you.
Or take your own advice and if all you want to do is frequent your local "Cheers" and have a good time with your drinking buddies you should find a place more suited to that? There are, after all, "literally millions of other online communities out there" - and this isn't yours, it's Paizo's.
Why would I do that? All the drinking buddies I have are here.
Now, do I want anyone to leave? No, I don't, I just would like "the regulars" to stop treating the messageboards like your own private sanctuary where you can run wild and stop dissing others with contrary opinions to you - at least in threads others have started.
Uh, okay. I'd like YOU to stop WHINGING about the REGULARS (am I doing this all caps thing right? It seems hard.)
Great, now we know where everyone stands. I'm glad we had this conversation.
It's quite simple, if you find something offensive, flag it and move on!
How many times do you have to be told that?
I'd guess 2 million. I'm pretty slow.
If you want to shoot the mouth with your "local drinking buddies" around here, start a thread in the off-topic section and go wild.
I do that too.
Look, Giant, I can't remember if your name is familiar because I had a good conversation wtih you recently, or I b#~#*ed you out. I'd been assuming the former for some reason, and cutting you some slack, but the tone of your response suggests the later. Not that it really matters, but there's more anger in your response than is typical for someone whose experienced my level of abusiveness and a&!**%@ry.
For the sake of argument, I'm still going to assume the former. And, as such, my final comment is to suggest you take a break from the keyboard, take a walk, and get a breath of fresh air. When you return, feel free to click the spoiler button below.
I don't have any control over the community or who is or is not a regular. Each poster here owns their online persona, their interactions with others, their posts. People slip in and out of "regular" status (whatever that means) all the time. You're asking a de-centralized group of people to not only act in concert, but to act in concert in a way you find acceptable. Whether or not the moderators decide to step-up their efforts against thread-crapping, the fact remains that they aren't going to start telling us "stop behaving like an exclusive clique of b#~+$y teen girls," which seems to be what a lot of posts in this thread (though not the OP) seem to be demanding.
If you want to be a drinking buddy, pull up a stool, right here. I'll have a cold one with you. I'll even extend an invite to you to become a regular, which grants all the status, privileges, and hookers that title denotes. It will also let you participate in shaping the culture here by communicating diretly with the other regulars, instead of trying to enforce certain behavior standards through moderation.
I don't really care if the community seems exclusive to certain posters or has a reputation on exclusivity. That's not the way I roll, but neither do I feel an obligation to change something as amorphous and uncontrollable as the reputation of a group of people on the internet.
I like it here. I welcome others to join. I'm happy with this community, warts and all, and have made a large number of friends here (and this is in spite of my obvious personality defects). If it turns into something I don't like, I'll leave. No one owes me an internet community that consists only of those things I like and make me happy.
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As others have said in this thread, I personally have no issue with humorous off topic posts (and have posted such myself from time to time). They do help to remind us that what we are discussing is, in fact, a game and should be enjoyed as such. Additionally, as they are typically very short in nature, they are quite easy to skip if that is what I am more in the mind of. But, as with anything else in life and especially on the internet, YMMV.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sorry for inserting a link you never intended, GG. I did it for a cause.
Dude! Support of the ignore function is not part of our regular party platform or culture! WTF is wrong with you?
That's it! By the power vested in me by me (and which did not cause hair to grow on my palms), I hereby strip Kruelaid of his status as a regular poster here on Paizo! Henceforth, he shall be Kruelaid, the newb!!!