First glance at this archetype made me cringe. Who would want a monk without flurry of blow? Secong glance though, I noticed that they get style feats in the same way that monks get their normal feats, no prereqs necessary. So does this mean my level 2 human monk can blow all his feats to get the full Crane Style tree? If so, could this make up for a lack of flurry or is it still not enough to make a Master of Many Styles viable compared to Average Joe Monk?
First glance at this archetype made me cringe. Who would want a monk without flurry of blow? Secong glance though, I noticed that they get style feats in the same way that monks get their normal feats, no prereqs necessary. So does this mean my level 2 human monk can blow all his feats to get the full Crane Style tree? If so, could this make up for a lack of flurry or is it still not enough to make a Master of Many Styles viable compared to Average Joe Monk?
I had wondered about that as well. As written, I am lead to believe that the only prerequisite the Master of Many Styles has to meet is that he has the previous style feat in the chain (IE: Crane Style before Crane Wing, Crane Wing before Crane Riposte).
It reads that way to me. It's a shocker if that's actually the case.
Emphasis mine. He requires no other prerequisites than the style feat. Kinda crazy. I'm rolling one up now.
EDIT: At 1st level, this sounds insanely awesome.
Crane Style (Combat, Style)
Your unarmed fighting techniques blend poise with graceful defense.
Prerequisites: Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +2 or monk level 1st.
Benefit: You take only a –2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. While using this style and fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you gain an additional +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class.
Crane Wing (Combat)
You move with the speed and finesse of an avian hunter, your sweeping blocks and graceful motions allowing you to def lect melee attacks with ease.
Prerequisites: Crane Style, Dodge, Improved Unarmed
Strike, base attack bonus +5 or monk level 5th.
Benefit: Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you.
Crane Riposte (Combat)
You use your defensive abilities to make overpowering counterattacks.
Prerequisites: Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8 or monk level 7th.
Benefit: You take only a –1 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. Whenever you use Crane Wing to deflect an opponent’s attack, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent after the attack is deflected.
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First glance at this archetype made me cringe. Who would want a monk without flurry of blow? Secong glance though, I noticed that they get style feats in the same way that monks get their normal feats, no prereqs necessary. So does this mean my level 2 human monk can blow all his feats to get the full Crane Style tree? If so, could this make up for a lack of flurry or is it still not enough to make a Master of Many Styles viable compared to Average Joe Monk?I had wondered about that as well. As written, I am lead to believe that the only prerequisite the Master of Many Styles has to meet is that he has the previous style feat in the chain (IE: Crane Style before Crane Wing, Crane Wing before Crane Riposte).
It reads that way to me. It's a shocker if that's actually the case.
** spoiler omitted **
Emphasis mine. He requires no other prerequisites than the style feat. Kinda crazy. I'm rolling one up now.
See, I read that as referring only to monk bonus feats. When he takes a bonus feat at 1,2,6, 10, etc... he can take any style feat, or feat in a style he already has ignoring prerequisites. Regular feats every odd level would not get this benefit.
See, I read that as referring only to monk bonus feats. When he takes a bonus feat at 1,2,6, 10, etc... he can take any style feat, or feat in a style he already has ignoring prerequisites. Regular feats every odd level would not get this benefit.
Ah, indeed. Good catch. Still opens up Crane Wing by 1st level, and Riposte at 2nd, though. That is really good.
One thing to add is that, the way I read it, the MoMS can take the 2nd or 3rd style feats in either order, as long as he has the entry style feat. So a human monk could take Combat Reflexes as his human bonus, Panther Style as his first level, and Panther Parry as his monk bonus (skipping Panther if he so desired). That's how I read the second bolded part of Foghammer's excerpt.
One thing to add is that, the way I read it, the MoMS can take the 2nd or 3rd style feats in either order, as long as he has the entry style feat. So a human monk could take Combat Reflexes as his human bonus, Panther Style as his first level, and Panther Parry as his monk bonus (skipping Panther if he so desired). That's how I read the second bolded part of Foghammer's excerpt.
That is true, though I think for most of the style feat chains you'd need to take the second feat anyway. Crane Riposte for example would be useless unless you had Crane Wing already and most of the other feat tree capstones reference the 2nd feat in their line as well.
Yeah, the value of that definitely varies between styles. If I was taking the Janni Style, for instance, I would prefer to skip Janni Tempest. Skipping Mantis Wisdom in the Mantis Style is a boon. I think the biggest advantage is with Snake Style: a MoMS can have Snake Fang at level 2, which would be fantastic if combined with, say, Monk of the Sacred Mountain.
Think about it. 2 levels of MoMS monk. you now have Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity. multiclass to brawler fighter. You're eligible for both Boar Style (organically) and Elemental Fist (due to DF). By level 6, Boar's Ferocity OR Weapon Specialization. By this time, you should have Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and Two Weapon Fighting (Since you won't be flurrying)
at 18 strength, you've got 1d6+17+1d6elemental+2d6bleed+stun on one hit at level 6. Not bad. You also can have two of these hits. By the next level, you should have Improved TWF, allowing 2 more attacks, even if you move back to monk. By this level, you have a huge possibility to have a Monk's Robe.
Also note that Dragon Style is filled with multipliers, making a bonus to Strength a whole lot more effective.
I built a 13th level monk for a game recently based on retaliation.
Combining Panther Style, Crane Style and Tiger Style. Took all the feats in the trees.
Fight defensively to get the bonuses from Crane, move up past one enemy provoking an AoO, which lets me retaliate (Panther Claw), hit a second enemy with the double strike from Tiger Claw then use Tiger Pounce to move back to the first enemy, provoking AoO from the 2nd (and retaliation from Panther), use Crane Wing to deflect any AoO that would hit and Crane Riposte to retaliate.
By bouncing between 2 or more enemies i ended up doing a ton of damage. Not so great on single targets but great for dealing with the tons of mooks my GM likes to throw at me occasionally.
Add in snake when you get high enough then if they survive the first panther hit if they miss on thier attack you can hit again.
that's just one full attack away.
I built a 13th level monk for a game recently based on retaliation.
Combining Panther Style, Crane Style and Tiger Style. Took all the feats in the trees.
Fight defensively to get the bonuses from Crane, move up past one enemy provoking an AoO, which lets me retaliate (Panther Claw), hit a second enemy with the double strike from Tiger Claw then use Tiger Pounce to move back to the first enemy, provoking AoO from the 2nd (and retaliation from Panther), use Crane Wing to deflect any AoO that would hit and Crane Riposte to retaliate.
By bouncing between 2 or more enemies i ended up doing a ton of damage. Not so great on single targets but great for dealing with the tons of mooks my GM likes to throw at me occasionally.
Natan what feats would you suggest for this build besides the style feats, if you dont mind me asking and borrowing it?
Can this be combined with the Martial Artist archtype?
By raw no. But GM fiat could possibly remove the capstone for Master of Many Styles to make it legal.
Favorite combo for MoMS: Human MoMS 2/Unarmed Fighter 2/Saurian Shaman 6. Order: Fighter, Monk, Druid, Druid, Monk, Fighter, Druid x4.
Feats: Imp Unarmed (fighter), Janni Style (fighter), Wep Focus: Bite (human), Skill Focus: Sense Motive (1st), Janni Rush (monk), Boon Companion (3rd), Snake Style (5th), Snake Fang (monk), Feral Combat: Bite (fighter), Imp Natural: Bite (7th), Imp Natural: Claws (9th).
At level 10, Wild Shape into an Allosaurus (Huge dino) and get pounce, rake, grab and +6 Str. You apply both Snake and Janni Styles via Feral Combat Training to your 3d6 Bite.
Charge + Pounce + Janni Rush is brutal. 6d6 off Bite, plus 2d6 off each claw and 2d6 off each rake -> 10d6 + 5x Str. Grab another 10d6 divine damage off an Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 for Holy. If they don't insta-die, use Grab to start a grapple, then kill them next round with bite + rake.
Snake Fang allows two bite attacks vs someone missing you. This tends to happen a lot. Snake Style allows a Sense Motive check for any AC check (even touch). At level 10, my Sense Motive is +33 with 14 Wisdom.
Animal companion? I like the Ankylosaurus. Lots of AC even with a permanent Enlarge to Huge, and Vital Strike on a 4d6 Tail that Stuns is great. Or go Awesome Blow and throw people around (or off cliffs, walls, etc).
For further levels, I like 1 more level of druid for access to Strong Jaw, and then 4 levels of Rogue for Uncanny Dodge, 2d6 sneak attack and 2 rogue talents (I use Combat Trick x2 for Power Attack and Combat Reflexes). For feats, Natural Spell, Planar Wildshape, and then whatever.
This is also a really good archetype to level dip into. You can take the Mantis Wisdom feat to advance the effects of your Sunning fist and Monastic Legacy to advance your unarmed strike, and you will still be able to combine two styles (though doing so will still cost 2 swift actions).
Note that you will not actually have to use the Mantis Style in order to benefit from Mantis Wisdom or the extra stunning fist/day, which frees up which choice of styles you can actually use in combat.
@Khaldun-ra: It doesn't matter that you will never get to a level where they conflict - if they conflict at any point, they cannot be combined.
@Mike001: I would say no with emphasis. But I cannot point to a rule that supports my stance. But an ability that advances by level is not what is meant in the clause you quote. Only abilities that are numbered (armor training 1, armor training 2) or that are a specific improvement (evasion, improved evasion) are included in that clause. This is not very clear though.
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The first and second parts of this archetype are diametrically opposed:
"a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat"
Dragon Roar IS a style feat.
"He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat"
One would assume this includes having the prerequisite style."Alternatively"
Or you can
"choose a feat in that style’s feat path... if he already has the appropriate style feat"This is not well written.
It's written well.
"You can choose a style feat at this level. Or, if you like, you can choose a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite."
The first and second parts of this archetype are diametrically opposed:
"a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat"
Dragon Roar IS a style feat.
"He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat"
One would assume this includes having the prerequisite style."Alternatively"
Or you can
"choose a feat in that style’s feat path... if he already has the appropriate style feat"This is not well written.
Dragon Roar isn't a style feat. Otherwise, you'd have to change styles from Dragon Style to Dragon Roar to use it. It does, however, have a style feat as a prerequisite--Dragon Style.