| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have been reading about one region in Northern Avistan known as the 'Worldwound'. Essentially some kind of brief tear in the fabric of reality between the Material and Abyssal planes has resulted in a Demonic (but not Daemonic) infestation that threatens to expand and engulf the whole of Golarion. This expansion seems to be tied to the military conquest of the demonic forces,and the whole Crusade theme has been applied to it with the forces of Mendev (aka the Crusader States of Iomedae). Essentially a playground for High level Lawful good Characters, but the way the narrative goes clashes between mortal armies and demon forces are common place. The mortal armies are easy enough to characterize; Pilgrims, Crusaders, Mercenaries, and high level Paladins and Clerics to bulk them out. As a fan of RTS games, I find this to be a very traditional setup.
The problem I am seeing here is the lack of characterization for the demonic armies. I do not have published material available, but while looking through the PFSRD I could not for the life of me find a credible Infantry unit to the fill the gap between the fodder like Dretch and the more powerful Vrock, Succubi, Glabrezu, etc. At the very least, nothing that I would think your average every day mortal could 'hold the line' against. This lack of a middle ground also translates into player confrontations with demons, where demons are relegated to BBEG or mini boss encounters. With cults involved, sure, the humanoids could fill that gap, but sparing that, I find this to be a disconcerting hole in the whole mythology.
The demon lords have to rule over something right? There has to be some kind of commoner like demon that could be their subjects and also fill out the bulk of their hordes as weapon and armor based core infantry. Something that your average mortal warrior could proudly fight against while the Paladins go after the really bad stuff. Could there truly be nothing of the sort?
What about the babau?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You could also slap the fiendish template on just about anything.
A hyper skinny, stealth based murder demon. The babau is far to specialized to fill the role of infantry, and its abilities are far to powerful for an entire army of them to be on the field. I would relegate it instead to a mobile battlefield 'Assassin' at most.
The demon lords have to rule over something right? There has to be some kind of commoner like demon that could be their subjects and also fill out the bulk of their hordes as weapon and armor based core infantry. Something that your average mortal warrior could proudly fight against while the Paladins go after the really bad stuff. Could there truly be nothing of the sort?
- humanoid cultists
- mindless undead- tieflings bred from humanoid slaves and conditioned to fight
- corrupted animals/plants/fey
- flesh-based constructs built by demonic arcanists
- dretch hordes
Fiendish Templates could work to an extent, but I do not think it alone would cover all of the bases.
I like your list of suggestions Necromancer. Humanoid Cultists are an inevitable staple, but the question arises as to whether they could survive in the depths of the World Wound's tortured landscape. They are, however, a good pairing for a population of Tieflings bred from slaves. I could imagine demons such as Kalavakus being prime progenitors for Tiefling slave warriors. However, were that ever the case that Tieflings were being bred for as a critical part of the World Wound's military forces, that would likely make it have the largest concentration of Tieflings in Golarion, far and above stumping that of even Cheliax.
The only problem that I see with all your other suggestions (undead, corrupted wildlife, constructs), while they are very much likely to always have a place in demon hordes, and give ample credence to demons being able to field such massive and traditional armies, is that those are all technically not Abyssal demons. The Abyssal lore explicitly states that Demons are the most numerous of the three fiendish races/factions, so I simply find it hard to believe that there is not a demon one step above a Dretch numerous enough to fill out the role of shock or defensive infantry.
It could be that I am thinking about this the wrong way. Warhammer Fantasy has a very similar (if not the same) setup with Demons and the Northern Wastes. Even there, humanoids (Beastmen, Human Chaos Warriors) were the primary army force, with Demons (as numerous as they were in their respective realms) filling out specialized roles in the overall battle. Even armies based on the Demons of Chaos, no demon every truly fit the role of versatile line infantry. Their natures simply would not allow for it.
You could create cambion demons by slapping a half-fiend template on almost any kind of humanoid creature.
Dretches, quasits and bodaks are fitting (though technically not demons).
From the book Lords of Chaos, the Vermlek (CR3)and Brimorak (CR5) are likely to fill such roles.
I believe Paizo published a novel about a character that had to visit the Worldwound not too long ago. That may have some descriptions or ideas about foot soldiers in a demonic army. I don't know if it does or not, but it might be worth checking. Good luck!
I like to imagine a nabassu snapping a whip behind 40-50 dretch and advanced dretch. and advanced giant dretch.
Advanced, giant, vampire dretch!
Seriously. Templates and changing appearences are your friend. Think Fiendish advanced vampire kobold/goblin. Bingo you now have nasty skirmish/terror troops
Fiendish dwarf with an ac boost? Bam heavy infranty that looks like walking statues.
Advanced, fiendish, giant gelatinous cube. Mobile field fortification so long as the associated troops are immune to paralysis.
Advanced, fiendish, giant, vampire, roper. Stuff of nightmares.
The worldwound is a great place. Literally anything could be there. Go wild.
Advanced, half-fiend, giant, Flumph. Arial battle platform
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Amazon-like succubi are the base troops, why do you think so many people volunteer for this crusade
If I'm understanding the OP right, the problem isn't the lack of ways to create such monsters. It's that no such monsters "naturally" exist.
When the abyssal hordes are fighting the infernal armies, the demon-in-charge doesn't call a time out. "Hey, duke of hell, can we move this to the Prime Material? 'Cause I got no infantry over here."
Giant template Quasit. Small sized CR3 demon.
I like your list of suggestions Necromancer. Humanoid Cultists are an inevitable staple, but the question arises as to whether they could survive in the depths of the World Wound's tortured landscape. They are, however, a good pairing for a population of Tieflings bred from slaves. I could imagine demons such as Kalavakus being prime progenitors for Tiefling slave warriors. However, were that ever the case that Tieflings were being bred for as a critical part of the World Wound's military forces, that would likely make it have the largest concentration of Tieflings in Golarion, far and above stumping that of even Cheliax.
The only problem that I see with all your other suggestions (undead, corrupted wildlife, constructs), while they are very much likely to always have a place in demon hordes, and give ample credence to demons being able to field such massive and traditional armies, is that those are all technically not Abyssal demons. The Abyssal lore explicitly states that Demons are the most numerous of the three fiendish races/factions, so I simply find it hard to believe that there is not a demon one step above a Dretch numerous enough to fill out the role of shock or defensive infantry.
It could be that I am thinking about this the wrong way. Warhammer Fantasy has a very similar (if not the same) setup with Demons and the Northern Wastes. Even there, humanoids (Beastmen, Human Chaos Warriors) were the primary army force, with Demons (as numerous as they were in their respective realms) filling out specialized roles in the overall battle. Even armies based on the Demons of Chaos, no demon every truly fit the role of versatile line infantry. Their natures simply would not allow for it.
Some more ideas:
- Take urdefhan stats and recolor them as Abyss-friendly
- Brimoraks from Book of the Damned: Lords of Chaos
- Create one unique demon possessing a squad of willing cultists. The possession is irregular with the demon splitting its focus across a few dozen humanoids (partial-mindless or the like?); the demon does not maintain its hosts' bodies as a result of the split focus. As a result, the bodies are rapidly decaying (with their hosts' consciousness fully aware) and are mistaken for undead.
The Urdefhan, a fiend race with strong warrior traditions, are more along the lines I was thinking about (Daemons though they may be), so they could be tweaked a bit and renamed an Abyssal demon type (made from the souls of... Evil Soldiers?).
The Brimoraks do seem to give the infernal armies a solid core infantry in their home planes, which is even part of their job description. I am, however, not just a bit perplexed as to why they have to be so short. If they are more bound to their natural environments in the Abyss than other demons, which their description seems to naturally imply, than that opens up a reason to rely more on Necromancer's many non-demons in the material world, alongside using Brimoraks as shock troops.
A balancing act, to be sure, but there is not enough solid information to go by otherwise, unless we ask the game creators themselves.
|
I'm going to play devil's (demon's?) advocate here, and say that demons shouldn't have foot troops. Foot troops are the front-line, low-caste of an army, which is not something you find in the Abyss. There, you find hordes. Thousands of demons of various sizes and shapes, without logical form (yet perfect function).
In Hell, there are foot devils. They are subservient to their masters, who are subservient to their masters, so on, until you reach the infernal dukes and Asmodeus. In the Abyss, a demon can hold on to as much land as he can hold, and it's all his until something bigger takes it away. Giving power to your underling demons, power like an army of foot solders, is just asking to be overthrown.
Lending that power to some feeble mortal spellcaster, that's another story...
In 'Worldwound Gambit' they use human thralls/cultists. They have a pretty rough lot in life once they slog their way there.
|
|
What you want was done for the 3.5 edition in the adventure Chambers of Antiquities on Dungeon 124.
The Abyss infantry are the hordlings. The monster description use 2 pages of that number as each hordling is different as they are true creatures of the abyss and chaos. The article include a table where you can roll for the special feature of each individual hordling, from wings to axe head than can be used to attack.
Note: I am going from memory as that number of Dungeon, itself a true creature of chaos, has hidden itself amid my other gaming paraphernalia.
You can find a few comments on the adventure and the hordlings in the forum in the section about Maure Castle, like here.
I think they have been redone for some 3.5 source book too. Probably Paizo can't republish and update them as they aren't OGL material.
|
Hordelings would be my first choice, too.
Barring an OGL version, using the variant Tieflings from Council of Thieves and giving them all a level of Barbarian (with the occasional Cleric and Sorcerer for support) could make for some decent Abyssal 'grunts.' Give them all the Fiendish simple template, for the free smite good 1/day, and some different resists / SR / DR, and they should be good to go.
The leader types could have the Half-Fiend template as well.
It may look a little odd to write in a character line 'fiendish half-fiend tiefling sorcerer 4 (abyssal)', but hey, the dude's got demons running all through him! Role-play him as appropriately schizophrenic (as if multiple warring demons were inhabiting one body) and run with it!
Maybe even come up with some abyss-flavored rage powers for those barbarians, just to jazz up the guys.
|
I'm going to play devil's (demon's?) advocate here, and say that demons shouldn't have foot troops. Foot troops are the front-line, low-caste of an army, which is not something you find in the Abyss. There, you find hordes. Thousands of demons of various sizes and shapes, without logical form (yet perfect function).
Agreed.
The demons that are listed in the bestiaries are but an infinitesimal sampling of the staggering variety that the Abyss births. In fact, I'd say that the vast majority of demons would be unique creatures...after all, the Abyss is as much about Chaos as it is about Evil. The "common foot soldier" of the Abyss would therefore not be a single type of demon, but instead a massive variety of disturbing creatures. The novel "The Worldwound Gambit" would actually support this opinion, as there was no one type of demon that seemed any more common than any other as they issued forth from the Worldwound.
What CR does one need to be considered a foot soldier?
I looked up the sample Military Characters in the Pathfinder Game Mastery Guide, and the character labeled as "Foot Soldier" was a CR 1/3 Warrior 1.
Seems to me like the Dretch are just fine as foot soldiers, at least in the Worldwound. Furthermore, they're better than the human variety by about 3 orders of magnitude at a CR 2.
I happen to consider the whole CR system a bit arbitrary regarding power levels across a large sampling of units. Given how easy it is to simply say that the adventurers are fighting level 4 Orcs, basing an army structure on CR is a hit or miss thing. For example, I am willing to say that your average Crusader is something along the lines of a lv 5 Fighter or some such, which could translate into CR 3-4. They should be able to trump dretch like cannon fodder individually but (unsupported) still be easily overwhelmed by them. I would expect a similar power level represented by the demons.
From what I have read, I find Diego's suggestion to honestly hit the proverbially nail on the head. The hordling sounds like the perfect generic demon from which to supplement dretch hordes. That they are each chaotically unique in their own way is a refreshing change of pace from the otherwise set in stone demon types of the 'elites'. More than anything else, I would find an army of hordlings, screened by cannon fodder dretch, supported by far more dangerous demons, and led by a greater demon such as a balor, to more than aptly fill the role of iconic demon army of impending doom, Gods save us all.
Brave Diego, bravo. I think its high time someone resurrected the hordlings and brought them into the world of Pathfinder (at least via homebrew).
Brave Diego, bravo. I think its high time someone resurrected the hordlings and brought them into the world of Pathfinder (at least via homebrew).
We need a browser-based Random Hordling Generator.
We need a browser-based Random Hordling Generator.Brave Diego, bravo. I think its high time someone resurrected the hordlings and brought them into the world of Pathfinder (at least via homebrew).
How many potential combinations would there have to be before it is considered a success?
|
|
How many potential combinations would there have to be before it is considered a success?We need a browser-based Random Hordling Generator.Brave Diego, bravo. I think its high time someone resurrected the hordlings and brought them into the world of Pathfinder (at least via homebrew).
Since they come from the Abyss....INFINITE!!!
Tough they all would share some locust-like trait.
How many potential combinations would there have to be before it is considered a success?We need a browser-based Random Hordling Generator.Brave Diego, bravo. I think its high time someone resurrected the hordlings and brought them into the world of Pathfinder (at least via homebrew).
Well, if you took the rules from Dungeon 124, updated the stats to Pathfinder... there's a lot of variation right there. Ideally it'd have inputs for "number of hordlings" and "desired advancement," and we'd be golden.
The Dretch works fine as they literally have an unending number of them to just throw at the humans.
Never forget that the Core Rules don't contain everything that (possibly) exists in the Pathfinder Campaign setting and every other world. There will always be some gaps.
That being said, if you need more demonic badness, there is some lower-level stuff in the Tome of Horrors Complete:
Corruptor Demons:
And the Bestiary itself isn't quite devoid of lower-level demons:
And don't forget Book of the Damned 2 - Lords of Chaos
They might not all fit the theme of a typical army, but that's OK: We're talking about the dark spawn of the abyss. They don't care about legions. They prefer hordes. While the idea of a babau army sounds bad to you (and me), they wouldn't hear of it, either. Instead, they'd descend on your camp in the middle of the night to murder your soldiers in their sleep.
Quasits will go and steal/sabotage your supplies.
Succubi will - well, there's little a succubus won't do.
You need to be on your toes all the time when you fight demons.
Creative Director
|
I pretty much created the brimorak in Lords of Chaos SPECIFICALLY to fill this role. From the first line of the brimorak's Habitat & Society entry...
"On the Abyss, brimoraks usually serve more powerful demons as taskmasters, thugs, or soldiers..."
We can't use rutterkin (they belong to Wizards of the Coast), in any event.
I wasn't sure if they were Wizards property or not, but even though Pathfinder cannot use them, the OP still could. I will have to check out the Brimorak.
Brimorak for a quick glance. More on them in Lords Of Chaos together with some others.
EDIT: Huh? I just noticed that its hoof attack has +0 attack bonus. Shouldn't it be +5 (BAB +6, +3 Strength, +1 size, -5 secondary attack)?
Also, is this d20pfsrd error or Lords Of Chaos error repeated on the page? (I regretfully don't have that fine book to check myself)
|
Creative Director
|
I wasn't sure if they were Wizards property or not, but even though Pathfinder cannot use them, the OP still could. I will have to check out the Brimorak.Brimorak for a quick glance. More on them in Lords Of Chaos together with some others.
EDIT: Huh? I just noticed that its hoof attack has +0 attack bonus. Shouldn't it be +5 (BAB +6, +3 Strength, +1 size, -5 secondary attack)?
Also, is this d20pfsrd error or Lords Of Chaos error repeated on the page? (I regretfully don't have that fine book to check myself)
Yup... typo. Hoof attack should be +5.
I'm planning to use the brimorak in my campaign (just one that was called and got loose, maybe two if it summons) and I found this page during my efforts to figure out that +0 hoof attack. Glad it's clarified as actually +5. Thanks!
Yeah, Schir work pretty well as cannon fodder that's a step up from the dretch.
AP #69, Maiden, Mother, Crone, also adds the C R5 Andrazku (a.k.a. misogyny demons) who get a breath weapon, who inflict bleeds with their bite attacks, and who can hulk out once a day with freaking righteous might.
And do keep in mind that the lowly dretches can all cast stinking cloud once per day. If you're fighting like 200 at once, that could easily mean most of your army is fighting from inside of stinking clouds for most of the engagement.
