Have you managed to thwart the wizards ability to walk around a corner and cast spells unmolested yet?Not any more than the wizard has thwarted my ability to walk away, wait for his spells to wear off, walk back, and kill him when he's out of magic.
Thwarting your ability to walk away is incredibly easy. Resilient Sphere is just one way the comes to mind. For added fun, Violent Thrust (telekinesis) a handful of beads of force. And that's just the easy mode. Of course, even if you can get out, you can't get away from the wizard unless you can teleport (such as with Helm of Teleport), because the wizard is far more mobile than you will ever be. If you DO get away, I hope you have a ring of non-detection on because if the wizard is vindictive he will use scry and die tactics and you WILL loose that fight.
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Thwarting your ability to walk away is incredibly easy. Resilient Sphere is just one way the comes to mind. For added fun, Violent Thrust (telekinesis) a handful of beads of force. And that's just the easy mode. Of course, even if you can get out, you can't get away from the wizard unless you can teleport (such as with Helm of Teleport), because the wizard is far more mobile than you will ever be. If you DO get away, I hope you have a ring of non-detection on because if the wizard is vindictive he will use scry and die tactics and you WILL loose that fight.Have you managed to thwart the wizards ability to walk around a corner and cast spells unmolested yet?Not any more than the wizard has thwarted my ability to walk away, wait for his spells to wear off, walk back, and kill him when he's out of magic.
Reflex negates, archers have really good reflex saves by default, plus he has to make that concentration roll he needs an 18 to pass. There's this thing called dimensional anchor, when fighting a wizard, you will use it, unless you can turn him off in a single round, or you are wasting your time. Besides, who goes caster-hunting while still being scry-able.
Have you managed to thwart the wizards ability to walk around a corner and cast spells unmolested yet?Why wouldn't you simply follow the wizard around the corner?
He can't, not if he wants to interrupt the wizard's spell. He's trying to use a delayed action like a readied action and that simply doesn't work. If the archer uses a readied action, that readied action has a trigger. "I will shoot the wizard when he starts casting a spell" The readied action MUST be a standard action. You cannot ready a full round action.
If the wizards moves, the fighter can't shoot because he's not casting.
If the wizard runs around the corner the fighter can't follow because the fighter didn't ready an action to move, he readied an action to fire.
Even if the DM lets the fighter change his mind, he only has a standard action, not a full round action.
Not any more than the wizard has thwarted my ability to walk away, wait for his spells to wear off, walk back, and kill him when he's out of magic.
-summoned monster to follow you (many of them are almost as powerful as the fighter) ANd no, you're not going to kill them with one aoo (HOW are you getting that with a bow against something that has 10 feet of reach anyway?)
-You have no means of knowing when the wizard is out of spells. The wizard has every means of scrying on the fighter until he's asleep.
-The wizard can spend a round or two buffing himself, then resume the fight.
-The wizard can use locate object to follow the fighter.
-The wizard can summon something with scent to track the fighter.
-The wizard can turn into something harmless looking and follow the fighter with his on scent ability.
- the wizard can use expeditious retreat to gain a faster movement speed than the fighter.
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Fighters can replace any class and doesn't need any magic at all!
Now this plan to kill wizards involves a magic bow, a magic item that casts dimensional anchor, an item that grants flying, an item that lets me see invisibility, goggles of darkvision, permanent arcane sight...
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Summon the biggest monster you want, I have 35 feet of threatened space (snap shot, improved snap shot, combat patrol), and a dex a mile high. I will kill your monsters before they get to me. More to the point, he will see your monsters, fly out of their reach, stay out of your line of sight, and wait for them to go away. Spend all the spells you like, the fighter will see you, he will know that the brightly glowing harmless looking thing (Arcane sight, again) is your wizard, and the fighter going to fill him with arrows until he's a twitching pile of arrows and former humanoid goo.
Expeditious retreat will not help you here, as he has haste (boots or somewhat expensive potion), and expeditious retreat (dirt cheap potion), making him faster than that.
I don't care all that much if you can scry, the entire point of running away is to make you expend your spells, I stay away for 5 minutes, come back, see how you are doing spell-wise (arcane sight, still permanent), and decide if I want to make you cast more, or just kill you.
I think Cirno is drunk....maybe stoned. I can't really tell which drugs illicit what kind of response.
Have you managed to thwart the wizards ability to walk around a corner and cast spells unmolested yet?Why wouldn't you simply follow the wizard around the corner?He can't, not if he wants to interrupt the wizard's spell. He's trying to use a delayed action like a readied action and that simply doesn't work. If the archer uses a readied action, that readied action has a trigger. "I will shoot the wizard when he starts casting a spell" The readied action MUST be a standard action. You cannot ready a full round action.
If the wizards moves, the fighter can't shoot because he's not casting.
If the wizard runs around the corner the fighter can't follow because the fighter didn't ready an action to move, he readied an action to fire.
Even if the DM lets the fighter change his mind, he only has a standard action, not a full round action.
Ohh, I see. Kais86 switch your archer to a dwarf Barb who beats the wizard to death and giggles while he tries to land a spell.
Reflex negates, archers have really good reflex saves by default, plus he has to make that concentration roll he needs an 18 to pass.
How many reflex save do you think you are going to make? I can fire 15 of them at you? Even assuming you make ALL of them, that's still one of the poorest options available to the wizard. He has a whole multitude of other BETTER options than don't offer saving throws to shut you down.
There's this thing called dimensional anchor, when fighting a wizard, you will use it, unless you can turn him off in a single round, or you are wasting your time. Besides, who goes caster-hunting while still being scry-able.
Dimensional Anchor doesn't even help you. I'm still more mobile than you will ever be. AND I have a merry band of minions consisting of some or all of bound outsiders, crafted golems, a simulacrum, dominated creatures, and summoned creatures. And you're right, you will have a Ring of Non-detection on. And you will have a cloak of resistance on. And unless your fighter is a suicidal idiot he should have a rod of cancellation or two, and he should have a helm of teleportation, and you should have some way to fly. You will have them in addition to magic weapons and armors and Dex boosters and other essential items because you're life depends on it. Fighters who make enemies with wizards die if they don't have them. Meanwhile the only thing the wizard needs is his spellbook and an Int booster. Scrolls and wands are just gravy.
Dimensional Anchor doesn't even help you. I'm still more mobile than you will ever be. AND I have a merry band of minions consisting of some or all of bound outsiders, crafted golems, a simulacrum, dominated creatures, and summoned creatures. And you're right, you will have a Ring of Non-detection on. And you will have a cloak of resistance on. And unless your fighter is a suicidal idiot he should have a rod of cancellation or two, and he should have a helm of teleportation, and you should have some way to fly. You will have them in addition to magic weapons and armors and Dex boosters and other essential items because you're life depends on it. Fighters who make enemies with wizards die if they don't have them. Meanwhile the only thing the wizard needs is his spellbook and an Int booster. Scrolls and wands are just gravy.
Well the wizard needs more actions then the fighter, otherwise they spend the first round casting flight, and don't start with any minions. I mean extra actions don't help the fighter much, but a fighter with no magic will still kill a wizard who doesn't get to pre-buff.
Summon the biggest monster you want, I have 35 feet of threatened space (snap shot, improved snap shot, combat patrol), and a dex a mile high
You have ONE. Count them. ONE attack of opportunity for movement.
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
- Much of your plan relies on misunderstanding of the rules involved. Your fighter might win when you're also dming. He will not win when playing by the rules.
Also, your eyes are glowing blue, which is a dead give away to the wizards knowledge: arcana about what you can do. Its easily blockable by nondetection, misdirection, corners, and obscuring mist.
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You would be dead well-before you go to use 15 resilient spheres. They need line of sight and I'm forcing incredibly difficult concentration checks when you are in line of sight.
Dimensional anchor is to keep you from getting away. Without teleport or D-door you aren't more mobile than me, you can be -just- as mobile, not more. Those minions wouldn't be able to touch me unless they had flight, the ones with flight would die first, they would still be struggling to hit me, and again I don't think you'd get to cast those spells. I fly over your first set of minions, and then you are probably in my threat radius, so you get shot every time you try to cast, causing more incredibly difficult concentration checks.
Rod of cancellation doesn't do anything helpful here, it turns of magic items, whupee, that's not that helpful. Rod of Negation would be more useful, casts greater dispel magic.
Let's get away from the PvP stuff... the question is more about the versatility of the Fighter and how he can compare to the Wizard. Let's ignore noncombat situations right now (because is there any argument that a generic Fighter is completely outclassed by a generic Wizard out of combat?).
Assuming a 5th level fighter (not super specialized to handle just one of these situations), how he contribute meaningfully to the following encounters?
- A high HD swarm attacks you.
- An underwater creature is attacking the boat that you are on (the boat, not the people on the boat).
- You are fighting something in supernatural darkness.
- You are fighting an invisible enemy.
How do you help in these situations as a generic Fighter? A fifth level Wizard can be prepared for any of these situations just by memorizing Summon Monster III. And SMIII works well in pretty much any situation, even if these kinds of combats don't come up.
Or what if you are a fifth level Fighter who is in the middle of army scale combat? Assuming you don't lead the troops, what can you really do other than be a good soldier? The fifth level Wizard can distract whole regiments of the enemy with conjured phantom soldiers via illusion spells, impede the enemies vision to stall them with a Sleet/Ash Storm, send a message to allies miles away a Whispering Wind, etc... etc...
Well the wizard needs more actions then the fighter, otherwise they spend the first round casting flight...
I cast overland flight in the morning. I fly ALL day. I'm using high level casters to make my point because he is using high level archers to make his. Unless I absolutely have to, I don't go closer than 60 feet to the ground. I don't waste any actions in combat because I'm a wizard and I get MORE actions than the fighter. I only have to spend a standard action to stay optimized and I can quicken spells on top of that. So I don't even know what you're talking about.
...and don't start with any minions.
I can craft/control undead, bind outsiders, dominate creatures, and craft a simulacrum. Those all last a LONG time. So yes, I WILL have minions. Most likely more than one.
I mean extra actions don't help the fighter much, but a fighter with no magic will still kill a wizard who doesn't get to pre-buff.
No. I will be pre-buffed with overland flight and I will have a way to go invisible handy at all times. I can't be grappled because I'm immune and you're ranged attacks are easy to shut down completely. I also stand a very good chance of knowing about the fight before it even begins with spells such as prying eyes.
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Swarm? Fuse Grenades, 100gp each, carry 10 of them. Take Craft: alchemy, spend 33g on each.
Underwater creature attacking the boat? The always reliable spear and a good swim check. You are on the water after all.
Any species with darkvision is immune to supernatural darkness in Pathfinder. Be a dwarf, half-orc, or one of the outsider races.
Invisible enemy? Blind fighting one way of fighting invisible creatures, using powder is more efficient though, costs money, but money is a much easier resource to come by than feats are.
Swarm? Fuse Grenades, 100gp each, carry 10 of them.
Underwater creature attacking the boat? The always reliable spear and a good swim check. You are on the water after all.
Any species with darkvision is immune to supernatural darkness in Pathfinder. Be an dwarf.Invisible enemy? Blind fighting one way of fighting invisible creatures, using powder is more efficient though, costs money, but money is a much easier resource to come by than feats are.
So your solution to fixing the fighters weaknesses are to do things that have nothing to do with actually being a fighter?
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So your solution to fixing the fighters weaknesses are to do things that have nothing to do with actually being a fighter?Swarm? Fuse Grenades, 100gp each, carry 10 of them.
Underwater creature attacking the boat? The always reliable spear and a good swim check. You are on the water after all.
Any species with darkvision is immune to supernatural darkness in Pathfinder. Be an dwarf.Invisible enemy? Blind fighting one way of fighting invisible creatures, using powder is more efficient though, costs money, but money is a much easier resource to come by than feats are.
My way of beating a wizard has almost nothing to do with being a fighter either. What's your point? The question is how flexible are they and using mundane gear is a portion of that, especially since smart fighters (you know, the ones who make it far) tend to use mundane gear, unlike most other classes. Sure, you can use mundane items while being another class, but most people don't think about that.
The fighter doesn't have any special class features, all it has is hit hard, be better with armor, and try to not fail will saves against fear. The other part it has is flexibility, access to a ton of feats, and hopefully a player smart enough to build a useful character out of it. So, no, nothing they have is exclusive to the fighter.
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Any species with darkvision is immune to supernatural darkness in Pathfinder. Be a dwarf, half-orc, or one of the outsider races.
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Deeper Darkness
School evocation [darkness]; Level cleric 3
Duration 10 min./level (D)
This spell functions as darkness, except that objects radiate darkness in a 60-foot radius and the light level is lowered by two steps. Bright light becomes dim light and normal light becomes darkness. Areas of dim light and darkness become supernaturally dark. This functions like darkness, but even creatures with darkvision cannot see within the spell's confines.
This spell does not stack with itself. Deeper darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level.
Apparently darkvision is still foiled by supernatural darkness.
Although Deeper Darkness is not within normal wizard's capabilities (cleric spell).
My way of beating a wizard has almost nothing to do with being a fighter either. What's your point?
Everything the wizard is doing is part of his actual repertoir of spells and abilities. He is only reliant upon a small number of items and even those aren't deal breakers. Meanwhile you're martial characters are doing anything BUT be a fighter to win. He is forced to spend all of his money on items that only serve to keep him alive against wizards and swarms and other creatures that he has not hope of beating if he relies only upon his skills as a fighter. Meanwhile the wizard is just being a wizard. When does your fighter get to use his ACTUAL abilities to kill things?
The question is how flexible are they and using mundane gear is a portion of that, especially since smart fighters (you know, the ones who make it far) tend to use mundane gear.unlike most other classes. Sure, you can use mundane items while being another class, but most people don't think about that.
Not according to you they don't. Fighters use dimensional anchor, Rings of Non-detection, Cloaks or Resistance, and magical bows and arrows. How exactly were you planning to even stay alive without those things? Casters are the least item dependent classes in the game. They can just kill you by BEING a wizard. How many things did you have to do in preparation for encounters with casters and swarms and invisible creatures and flyers and lions and tigers and bears? When is your class going to actually get to be flexible enough to be able to rely on his own abilities?
Swarm? Fuse Grenades, 100gp each, carry 10 of them. Take Craft: alchemy, spend 33g on each.
Fuse Grenades go off 1-3 rounds later. Your answer to swarms is to hope they don't move.
Underwater creature attacking the boat? The always reliable spear and a good swim check. You are on the water after all.
I assume you are ditching you armor to go overboard? And so Swim is always one of your 2 skills for a Fighter apparently. It isn't one of my choices. And god help you if the water isn't calm or the creature can grapple you.
Any species with darkvision is immune to supernatural darkness in Pathfinder. Be a dwarf, half-orc, or one of the outsider races.
That is flat wrong. Normal darkvision cannot see through areas that are Supernaturally Dark. You need the See in Darkness (su) to do that.
Invisible enemy? Blind fighting one way of fighting invisible creatures, using powder is more efficient though, costs money, but money is a much easier resource to come by than feats are.
Sweet, your 5th level fighter is blowing feats on blind fighting now (still not terribly effective). Or he is spending lots of action to retrieve and randomly throw powder everywhere.
You really feel confident about these choices?
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I never said to use a non-detection ring, it would be a custom item anyway, and people are already up in arms about using silenced arrows, much less an item that makes me outright immune to being detected. Even the necklace of proof against detection and location isn't capable of doing that, it requires a DC19 caster check, which is more than a little easy to do for any wizard above 18th, much less a well-built wizard.
As I said earlier, fighters don't really have anything going for them, while the wizard has everything going for them (your words not mine), and yet I'm forcing you to dig into serious amounts of preparation time in order to beat this lowly fighter. Heaven forbid he goes out and gets a group together to kill that jerk wizard for a share of the reward, which is basically what you are doing by gathering all those allies, only the humanoids are probably going to win.
@Merkatz: I know where the swarm is going: it's going to whoever looks like the juiciest target, as a fighter, I make myself the juiciest target, by running up to them. Then I throw the bombs 15 feat away, because swarms are 10X10ft creatures, and they aren't going anywhere, because they are trying to eat me.
Fighters are likely to have far more than 2 skills and armor training makes it so I will eventually only have an armor check penalty in full-plate or one of the crappier armors, so I'll hop in with my armor on, it's not going to kill me. Fighter's CMD/CMB is really good, if grappled, break out, stab the monster, get grappled again, rinse repeat.
Powder is more effective when spent filling a space. Tells me where the target is, so I can just kill him. Yeah, I'm pretty confident, if he's invisible, it probably means he isn't confident he can kill me. Or he's a ninja and we are screwed.
I cast overland flight in the morning. I fly ALL day.
Well the wizard needs more actions then the fighter, otherwise they spend the first round casting flight...
For most of your career this isn't true.
I'm using high level casters to make my point because he is using high level archers to make his.A high level archer simply does your hitpoints with one round of arrows.
Unless I absolutely have to, I don't go closer than 60 feet to the ground.
Then you can guess where the fighter will be standing, in a low ceiling cave.
I don't waste any actions in combat because I'm a wizard and I get MORE actions than the fighter.
Not without rods of quicken, which you suggested you didn't need. Cause a quickened save or suck isn't going to help you.
I only have to spend a standard action to stay optimized and I can quicken spells on top of that.
Care to elaborate?
So I don't even know what you're talking about.
That's clear.
I can craft/control undead, bind outsiders, dominate creatures, and craft a simulacrum. Those all last a LONG time. So yes, I WILL have minions. Most likely more than one.
...and don't start with any minions.
Unintelligent Undead cost money, and aren't that cool.
Outsiders who never make a save?Dominate Creatures who never make a save?
Simulacrum cost money, and are pretty cool, but still need to be commanded.
No. I will be pre-buffed with overland flight and I will have a way to go invisible handy at all times.
I mean extra actions don't help the fighter much, but a fighter with no magic will still kill a wizard who doesn't get to pre-buff.
Which are fine, but at higher levels aren't going to stop you from getting shot full of arrows.
I can't be grappled because I'm immune
How did you do that?
and you're ranged attacks are easy to shut down completely.
How did you do that?
I also stand a very good chance of knowing about the fight before it even begins with spells such as prying eyes.
Prying Eyes create visible eyes, that can't see in darkness, they aren't actually doing anything but burning a 5th level spell
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Ring of Freedom of movement makes him immune to grapples, but step around a corner or fly over it, and wind wall is useless.
As a side note: I don't think the rogue is very good, if it is dependent on Crippling Strike, then it's still technically rather bad. One trick ponies don't work, that's why the ninja is better, forgotten trick, lots of Ki, and you can do everything a rogue could ever hope to do, right until you run out of Ki, then your options become a bit more limited.
I never said to use a non-detection ring, it would be a custom item anyway, and people are already up in arms about using silenced arrows, much less an item that makes me outright immune to being detected. Even the necklace of proof against detection and location isn't capable of doing that, it requires a DC19 caster check, which is more than a little easy to do for any wizard above 18th, much less a well-built wizard.
You implied it by saying "who goes caster-hunting while still being scry-able?"
As I said earlier, fighters don't really have anything going for them, while the wizard has everything going for them (your words not mine),
Not my words. Yes I'm implying that but don't put words into my mouth please and thank you.
and yet I'm forcing you to dig into serious amounts of preparation time in order to beat this lowly fighter.
Not really. It's easy to make yourself Immune to ranged attacks or to reduce their effectiveness into negligible territory.
Heaven forbid he goes out and gets a group together to kill that jerk wizard for a share of the reward, which is basically what you are doing by gathering all those allies, only the humanoids are probably going to win.
I'd hope you would have friends with you or else there is no chance in hell of success. Unless you're "humanoids" include casters that is very doubtful. Most of my allies get hole slew of spell like abilities and special qualities. Some can fly. Some can cast heal AND fly. Some are brutes in their own right. Which is good because fighters aren't very good at killing monsters either.
Now you have out and out said that you agree that fighters don't get much so what are you trying to prove? That you can make a fighter who is almost passably competent as long as you dump every resource you have into it? I'm seriously confused.
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You're partially right, in that I did say "who goes caster-hunting while being scry-able", but that just requires the right things, for example, your opponent not knowing who you are, or that you want him dead. Once he knows you want him dead, he won't have time to cast any of those spells, rendering you functionally immune to them.
How exactly are you "immune to arrows"? Wind wall doesn't work, protection from arrows only stops them if they aren't magical, aren't hitting like trucks, and aren't already basically ignoring DR to begin with because of clustered shots.
I'm proving that with enough preparation no one is unkillable in a one on one fight. The fighter can kill a wizard, even on the wizard's best day, and the fighter will still be just as dangerous when he fights something else.
Assuming a 5th level fighter (not super specialized to handle just one of these situations), how he contribute meaningfully to the following encounters?
- A high HD swarm attacks you.
- An underwater creature is attacking the boat that you are on (the boat, not the people on the boat).
- You are fighting something in supernatural darkness.
- You are fighting an invisible enemy.How do you help in these situations as a generic Fighter? A fifth level Wizard can be prepared for any of these situations just by memorizing Summon Monster III. And SMIII works well in pretty much any situation, even if these kinds of combats don't come up.
SMIII summons a CR 2 creature, are you suggesting for the underwater creature that your CR 2 croc or shark will take down a CR 5 Hippo? A CR 2 Direbat will take down the troll in the dark?
Or what if you are a fifth level Fighter who is in the middle of army scale combat? Assuming you don't lead the troops, what can you really do other than be a good soldier? The fifth level Wizard can distract whole regiments of the enemy with conjured phantom soldiers via illusion spells, impede the enemies vision to stall them with a Sleet/Ash Storm, send a message to allies miles away a Whispering Wind, etc... etc...
Really? The wizard uses his one 3rd level spell (I know they get bonus spells) to create a 40ft cylinder of ice and stops a mass battle? Really? In a mass battle one of the soliders isn't going to make his save to disbelieve the illusion and tell his friends, giving them a bonus? Or simply hit the AC figment, thus shattering the illusion.
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Oh, huh. I guess it doesn't make PBM redundant, then. (The prereqs are a non-issue, though; no archer is going to go without PBS or Rapid Shot, and you need Weapon Focus for both.)Point-Blank Master makes ALL your ranged attacks non-provoking, while Snap Shot makes only your ranged AoOs non-provoking.
Also, PBM requires only Weapon Spec, while Snap Shot requires PBS, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, BAB +6 and Dex 13.
What? No you don't. PBS doesn't have any requirements.
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I think the point here is that in all those situations, you need a different specialized fighter who just happen to have the right equipment at any given moment, and while the wizard has to have the right spells, it's still the same wizard whilst you need 4 different fighters to prove your point. The mention that the fighter can mimic any other class is just silly, do you even play this game? Or do you just design specialized characters to any given situation?
I've got to admit that trying to make the game 'balanced' is a futile act, but the wizard really does invade everybody else's niches. The real problem is when the fighter wants to be viable in something other than combat, they have to give up some of their combat prowess while other classes can be effective in multiple situations without falling below their expected power levels.
For most of your career this isn't true.
Again...using high level because thats what we are talking about. There aren't as many balance problems at low level. Pay attention.
A high level archer simply does your hit points with one round of arrows.
ONLY if he catches me by surprise or flat-footed. Not likely. For example in the last campaign I was in I was a wizard who lived in a tower, had telepathic bond (permanent) with his party members, and used a crystal ball to watch the party druids every move (he intentionally failed the save). When the party got into a fight, scry and die. Or you could just use Prying Eyes. Whatever. The point is it isn't very likely. I don't play the lottery.
Then you can guess where the fighter will be standing, in a low ceiling cave.
No, no, no. I don't stand in low ceiling caves while I'm still visible thank you very much. As an adventurer I have many enemies and I never let them get a tactical advantage over me. If they want to catch me off guard they are going to have to work at it. A lot.
And yes I seriously do play my wizards that way. No bull s+++. I never put myself at a disadvantage.
Not without rods of quicken, which you suggested you didn't need. Cause a quickened save or suck isn't going to help you.
Um..again high level. I can just QUICKEN spells you know. Though I probably will have a rod anyway. I don't need it though. And yes a quickened spell DOES help. But I didn't even mention save or suck. My wizards usually quicken defensive spells.
Care to elaborate?
No. If you don't understand the action economy than I can't help you. I'm not good at beginners tutorials.
Unintelligent Undead cost money, and aren't that cool.
Outsiders who never make a save?
Dominate Creatures who never make a save?
Simulacrum cost money, and are pretty cool, but still need to be commanded.
1.) You vastly underestimate the value of allips. Allips can seriously kill the Terrasque at any level.
2.) Uh...yeah. Have you used those spells before? I use them all the time as both a player and a DM. It isn't hard to make an outsider your b#$%!.3.) Yes. Again, its pretty easy. My previous wizard had 3 ogre magi all the time.
4.) So?
Which are fine, but at higher levels aren't going to stop you from getting shot full of arrows....
Yes they will. My previous wizard (the same guy with the ogre magi and the allips and fly all day) would almost always know ahead of time of any possible threats. When it came time to kill some frost giants I cast Major Creation, flew up above them and dropped debris on them until they died. I wasn't even within bow range.
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I think the point here is that in all those situations, you need a different specialized fighter who just happen to have the right equipment at any given moment, and while the wizard has to have the right spells, it's still the same wizard whilst you need 4 different fighters to prove your point. The mention that the fighter can mimic any other class is just silly, do you even play this game? Or do you just make specialized characters to any given situation?
I've got to admit that trying to make the game 'balanced' is a futile act, but the wizard really does invade everybody else's niches. The real problem is when the fighter wants to be viable in something other than combat, they have to give up some of their combat prowess while other classes can be effective in multiple situations without falling below their expected power levels.
Actually, those are the same fighter. The wizards are the ones who have been casting a dozen more spells than they can actually have.
1Point-blank shot
2Rapid Shot
3Manyshot
4precise shot
5Improved Precise shot
6Clustered shots
7Weapon Focus
8Weapon Spec
9Greater Weapon Spec
10Combat Reflexes
11Dodge
12Mobility
13Combat Patrol
14Deadly Aim
15Snap Shot
16Improved Snap Shot
17Disrupting Shot (which I had not mentioned until now, simply to give them a chance of actually casting the spell.)
18Agile Maneuvers
Those are the feats and prerequisites I've used thus far. I have at least 3 feats remaining, if I'm something aside from human.
He doesn't need to catch you by surprise to kill you that easily. The average I spoke of earlier, is more than enough to kill you in a single round, as it does about 375 points of damage, even the fighter can't survive that kind of damage, with a minimum of +20 (+5 bab, +5 weapon, +5 weapon training, +2 bracers of archery, +1 weapon focus, -6 deadly aim, -2 rapid shot, +10 dex) to hit. Even if he misses with that last shot, it's still over 300 on average, which is enough to kill pretty much any PC, and their dog.
Man in Black must be lonely. He wants attention.
Edit: did my math wrong on the dex and forgot rapid shot. Keep in mind, this guy still isn't using a book to bump his dex, so he can have room for all the tools he will need.
You're partially right, in that I did say "who goes caster-hunting while being scry-able", but that just requires the right things, for example, your opponent not knowing who you are, or that you want him dead. Once he knows you want him dead, he won't have time to cast any of those spells, rendering you functionally immune to them.
So let me get this strait. You're a random guy that I have NEVER met. I don't even know you exist. And you want to kill me? Now, I already mentioned that I don't leave myself open to attacks because as an adventurer I have enemies, but lets pretend for a moment that I don't have any enemies and I'm more relaxed. Then yes, your psycho killer could kill me in my sleep. It wouldn't be guaranteed but it would be more likely. Does that make you feel happy about the fighter? Because a warrior could have done that. A rogue could have done it better. A druid could have done it even better.
How exactly are you "immune to arrows"? Wind wall doesn't work, protection from arrows only stops them if they aren't magical, aren't hitting like trucks, and aren't already basically ignoring DR to begin with because of clustered shots.
Who the hell casts Wind Wall or Proc Arrows? Those aren't even spells that make you immune to arrows. They aren't even in my spell book. Functionally immune and immune have the same impact on gameplay. Invisibility, clouds and fogs, tentacles, control weather, etc. It isn't hard to stay out of the way of an arrow.
Archer: I prepare an action to shoot the caster when he casts.
Caster: I cast a stilled mislead (My favorite spell in the game by the way). The archer doesn't know I just cast a spell so his prepared action doesn't go off. I move the illusion of myself behind cover while I fly in the other direction.
Archer: I move closer and attack. GASP! FOILED AGAIN!
I'm proving that with enough preparation no one is unkillable in a one on one fight. The fighter can kill a wizard, even on the wizard's best day, and the fighter will still be just as dangerous when he fights something else.
What you are proving is that the Fighter has to struggle for his entire career just to stay relevant against the wizards favorite toys. I don't even doubt that fighters CAN kill a wizard. But the amount of effort and investment is just insanely unreasonable.
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You're an adventurer? That means you probably have a bounty on your head. Not an adventurer? And I quote: "At the end of the day, so long as there are two people in the world, someone is going to want someone dead."
Those spells provide cover bonuses, which is ignored utterly. Congratulations, you are surrounded in something that screws only you. I can see you casting those spells! I have Arcane Sight! I SEE MAGIC! You will not fool me with a clumsy spell like that.
Hardly, I'd want most of this stuff as an archer anyway, it pays to be prepared.
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This discussion makes me sad.
Actually, those are the same fighter. The wizards are the ones who have been casting a dozen more spells than they can actually have.
1Point-blank shot
2Rapid Shot
3Manyshot
4precise shot
5Improved Precise shot
6Clustered shots
7Weapon Focus
8Weapon Spec
9Greater Weapon Spec
10Combat Reflexes
11Dodge
12Mobility
13Combat Patrol
14Deadly Aim
15Snap Shot
16Improved Snap Shot
17Disrupting Shot (which I had not mentioned until now, simply to give them a chance of actually casting the spell.)
18Agile ManeuversThose are the feats and prerequisites I've used thus far. I have at least 3 feats remaining, if I'm something aside from human.
A Dex of 17 and BAB of 6 at level 3?
A Dex of 19 and BAB of 11 at level 5!? D:Also Disrupting Shot requires you to have a ready action against the wizard within 30 feet and only increases the concentration DC. It's very situational.
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A Dex of 17 and BAB of 6 at level 3?
A Dex of 19 and BAB of 11 at level 5!? D:
Also Disrupting Shot requires you to have a ready action against the wizard within 30 feet and only increases the concentration DC. It's very situational.
That wasn't the order in which I acquired them, but merely a numbering of the feats, also dex 20 is plausible at level 1. Right, but I'm forcing impossible concentration checks to keep them from casting.
and master craftsman doesn't help you qualify for brew potion either.
That wasn't the order in which I acquired them, but merely a numbering of the feats, also dex 20 is plausible at level 1. Right, but I'm forcing impossible concentration checks to keep them from casting.A Dex of 17 and BAB of 6 at level 3?
A Dex of 19 and BAB of 11 at level 5!? D:
Also Disrupting Shot requires you to have a ready action against the wizard within 30 feet and only increases the concentration DC. It's very situational.
Provided the wizard is also a moron?
Potions must target 1 or more creatures: you aren't 1 creature in the target, you are only personal.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#brew-potion
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Show me. I couldn't find it.A personal spell is not a spell that targets one or more creatures. This is borne out by the example potions, where every single spell that could be turned into a potion is on the table, while personal spells are not.
Implications, implications everywhere. That's not how this works and you know it.
Potions must target 1 or more creatures: you aren't 1 creature in the target, you are only personal.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#brew-potion
You are a creature yes? The spell targets you yes? Then it's still plausible.