Is it just me, or does Ultimate Combat inspire a lot of creep?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Grand Lodge

A Man In Black wrote:
Kais86 wrote:
I'm doing this all by the book, only imagine the words by the book written in 60 foot high steel reinforced concrete. Read the Core Rulebook, from back to front, then do it two more times so that you will remember it better. Then you can come back and try to make a decent argument.

Quite.

Quote:
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point.

Single-use arrow of silence isn't worth 2000 gp/arrow? Especially when it casts it upon impact and is further rendered useless, because arrows break? What of the Arcane Sight? Is it not worth 42000 gp? Even if I'm only paying 600/12600 gp respectively?

Unless you are the GM you don't get that choice and since you are clearly on the caster side, you would be a horrid GM to run this. A GM who didn't care who won, but wanted his players to shut up about it, so he's running this mess, would be ideal, assuming he's harsh but fair.

As an archer fighter, I'm not going to buy a high Con, I don't need it. I have a ridiculously high AC. Everything should die before it gets to me anyway and what doesn't I'm going to play the evasion game with. I will still have a high-ish Con, if I can afford it, but it's not going to be a priority. I'd rather have more Int. The most expensive part about this is probably going to be the bow or woundrous items, whichever is the harshest is the one I'll take the craft on, assuming you can actually figure out which part of it says I can only pick one. You bolded the wrong thing, Wolf, FYI. Also, you pointed out the wrong things that were wrong about the way I was doing it, my options still hold true. All I have to do is remember the right words.


Just to add my two coppers, i worry more about power creep from moagic than non-magic. I have always felt that non-magic options seem to be trying to catch up to the power level of mogic


Quote:
You bolded the wrong thing, Wolf, FYI.

There are several statements that tell you why you can only use Master craftsman with one skill. If you're complaining that I've only bolded one of them for you, you've officially run out of arguments.


Nope. All seems fine to me.

Grand Lodge

No, I mean you didn't point out the flaw in master craftsman. The delay is to get me on your turn, which now that I'm thinking about it, really doesn't mean much. I move up to you, I hold my action, you cast a spell, I interrupt you with an AoO, you take your two concentration checks, one to cast the spell defensively (which you will presumably pass, as it isn't very hard all things told, 33 tops), the second when I use my held action to shoot you, if you choose to move first, it provokes an AoO, which I use to trip you, then if you cast, I interrupt you with the delayed action.
You will provoke every time you stand, which is no big deal to me, just more shots.
You will provoke when you move, which I will use to trip you.
You will provoke when you cast, which probably won't mean much, as you will probably make your defensive cast.
My delay will keep your spells in check though.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Kais86 wrote:
stuff

You've got a level 20 strategy that relies on tripping?

Grand Lodge

A Man In Black wrote:
Kais86 wrote:
stuff
You've got a level 20 strategy that relies on tripping?

His level 20 strategy is based on running away and I'm feeling too lazy to chase after him, so sure.

The other option is to do what I said before,leave until his spells wear off (maybe 2 minutes, 20 if I feel like waiting out the longer spells), then come back, let him cast some more, leave, wash, rinse repeat, until he's dead. Always shooting him when I can.


Kais86 wrote:
No, I mean you didn't point out the flaw in master craftsman.

I'm sorry, but even for the internet this is a new level of inanity. Ha ha i win because you didn't prove me wrong the right way? I have a hard time believing this is a serious objection. The grapes aren't sour, they taste fine, eat up.

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The delay is to get me on your turn, which now that I'm thinking about it, really doesn't mean much.

Now you're getting it, ready to admit i don't need to read the rules again?

Quote:

I move up to you, I hold my action, you cast a spell, I interrupt you with an AoO, you take your two concentration checks, one to cast the spell defensively (which you will presumably pass, as it isn't very hard all things told, 33 tops), the second when I use my held action to shoot you, if you choose to move first, it provokes an AoO, which I use to trip you, then if you cast, I interrupt you with the delayed action.

And note that in all of that, delaying gained you absolutely nothing. If you're on initiative count 20 and the wizard is on initiative count 10, it doesn't matter if you move your initiative to 11, or 10.000001

Quote:

You will provoke every time you stand, which is no big deal to me, just more shots.

You will provoke when you move, which I will use to trip you.
You will provoke when you cast, which probably won't mean much, as you will probably make your defensive cast.
My delay will keep your spells in check though.

-Whats the penalty for using the bow to trip?

5 foot step back, cast defensively make check.
Get Readied action in the face, miss check
Move action: draw metamagic rod: quicken. (does not cause an AoO)
Free action: cast Dimension door defensively (can't miss, there's no attack of opportunity, and the readied action was already blown) port away. The wizard comes back when he's surprising you.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

How do you trip with a ranged weapon that is being held ready to interrupt a spell?

Grand Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
How do you trip with a ranged weapon that is being held ready to interrupt a spell?

He provokes when he moves. You can trip as a part of an AoO. Archer Fighters can choose to trip with ranged attacks at a -4 CMB, but it's not like he is going to notice it, he's still hitting on 2s probably.

Drawing a weapon doesn't provoke for you, but casting another spell will provoke again, and it's a different action than the prior attempted (and failed) cast.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

So you ruin your held action to take an AoO?

Grand Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
So you ruin your held action to take an AoO?

AoOs happen out of turn, it wouldn't affect my delay any.


I guess I'm just not understanding all this concern about UC bringing in alot of power creep. Option creep maybe, but unless you're playing a Monk or the new Ninja class, 95% of the options in that book are underpowered crap or deceptive traps. Even the Gunslinger and Samurai seemed pretty meh to me.

To be honest, the Monk and Rogue could use some powering up, so I don't see the problem there either. Where are all these knee-jerk fear and anger responses to anything new coming from anyway?

I mean seriously people, do you really all expect Paizo to put a full stop on any and all supplements that have options for players? First, that seems a terribly naive expectation to have for a for-profit company, and second, aren't some of you GMs being just a tad selfish? 90% of Paizo's products are for GMs anyway, so why not let players have some candy too?

And before anyone brings up the tired argument of "I'm a GM and I have to absorb all this material", that's a bogus argument. Paizo publishes what, 2 products for players each year? That's plenty of absorption time. I should know, I'm a GM as well.


Kais86 wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
How do you trip with a ranged weapon that is being held ready to interrupt a spell?

He provokes when he moves. You can trip as a part of an AoO. Archer Fighters can choose to trip with ranged attacks at a -4 CMB, but it's not like he is going to notice it, he's still hitting on 2s probably.

Drawing a weapon doesn't provoke for you, but casting another spell will provoke again, and it's a different action than the prior attempted (and failed) cast.

casting another spell will not provoke when its cast defensively.

Actually, you don't even need to make the check. Its a quicken spell, it doesn't provoke at all.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Kais86 wrote:
His level 20 strategy is based on running away and I'm feeling too lazy to chase after him, so sure.

Dude, you're not playing the same game as the people you're talking to are. By high levels, everyone needs to be able to fly, at least reliably if not constantly. There are just too many enemies with essentially infinite mobility. Flying is immunity to trip. Picking up the ability to make conditional trips in the high level teens is a terrible idea.

On top of this, your strategy doesn't work against any foe that can both cast spells and also hit you in your face, which is true of pretty much every monster or classed combatant that isn't a straight wizard or bard. Single arrow shots are not a lot of damage, so you're heavily reliant on readied actions stopping the enemy from acting effectively. There isn't any such thing as "awesome AC" at level 20; attack bonuses just outscale the hell out of AC. Clerics and druids and summoners and dragons and titans note your nocked arrow and just pound your fighter in the face.

You've also got major action economy issues here. Holding an action only works against one foe, and your fighter has fairly limited tools to deal with multiple underlevel foes other than HP damage. If someone gets up defenses with higher initiative, or seeing you coming and gets even a tiny bit of time to prepare, or simply pins you down with melee combatants you can't ignore, a fighter's toolset to deal with them is zero.

Your hypothetical fighter versus wizard PVP battle doesn't have anything to do with actual problem-solving at high levels, in or outside of combat. You've got a character who is insanely specialized at defeating a single spellcaster who presents no martial threat, and there just aren't many high-level foes like that other than wizards.


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Lets say the wizard or codzillia are 10.

Is it really creep if it pushes the rogue and monk from 4 up to 7 ?

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Kais86 wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
How do you trip with a ranged weapon that is being held ready to interrupt a spell?

He provokes when he moves. You can trip as a part of an AoO. Archer Fighters can choose to trip with ranged attacks at a -4 CMB, but it's not like he is going to notice it, he's still hitting on 2s probably.

Drawing a weapon doesn't provoke for you, but casting another spell will provoke again, and it's a different action than the prior attempted (and failed) cast.

casting another spell will not provoke when its cast defensively.

Actually, you don't even need to make the check. Its a quicken spell, it doesn't provoke at all.

Reminds me why I had D-Anchor added to an arrow or two, keeps this from happening, don't cry about it, the rules support it. So what if he has to come back? I can run away as well. I had forgotten about it earlier. 1800 or 540/arrow (Single use, use-activated Spell level x caster level x 50 gp, 4th level spell, 9th caster level. 9X4X50=1800. 1800X.3= 540. naturally depending on which is cheaper the wondrous items or the weapon) to keep someone from killing me? Sure. Done and done. No teleporting away. None of that nonsense, just sitting there, and dying.

You missed the part of the thread where I told you how much a full-round attack hits for didn't you Man in Black? Let's put it this way: there are Colossal Red Dragons who would be back-peddling or outright dead (depends on if I hit with the last shot, which I do need a 16 to hit with) when hit by a full-round action by this character. 4 attacks base +1 manyshot, +1 rapid shot, +1 haste. 2d6+33(6 str, 5 weapon training, 4 weapon spec+greater, 5 weapon itself, 1 bracers of archery, 12 deadly aim)+ 4d6 fire/frost/shock/corrosive=54(average)X7= an average of 378 points of damage/round, enough to kill pretty much anyone, with clustered shots they are only getting DR once, if at all. I don't care what you are, this can kill you in 2 rounds.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Is it really creep if it pushes the rogue and monk from 4 up to 7 ?

Yes and no. Some of the options ramp up already-good fighting styles to be even better. It's not good for the game for archery to be so much more effective than melee combat styles, when it already has the inherent advantage of not needing to get into melee. Using a sword is cool, and there's really no reason it should be as bad as it is.


Quote:
Reminds me why I had D-Anchor added to an arrow or two, keeps this from happening, don't cry about it, the rules support it. So what if he has to come back? I can run away as well. I had forgotten about it earlier. 1800 or 540/arrow (Single use, use-activated Spell level x caster level x 50 gp, 4th level spell, 9th caster level. 9X4X50=1800. 1800X.3= 540. naturally depending on which is cheaper the wondrous items or the weapon) to keep someone from killing me? Sure. Done and done. No teleporting away. None of that nonsense, just sitting there, and dying.

It doesn't work like that. That would be a separate use item, not an arrow. Your arrows were used as a readied action that did damage and a standard action combat maneuver.

You're trying to get a free action out of it, whereas the "spell in a can" rules require magic items to be their own separate standard action, not a free part of another action. Its about one step away from the use activated truestrike.

You are again Ignoring rules that are inconvenient to you while simultaneously complaining about my lack of system mastery. Can the insults and mischaracterizations.

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:

It doesn't work like that. That would be a separate use item, not an arrow. Your arrows were used as a readied action that did damage and a standard action combat maneuver.

You're trying to get a free action out of it, whereas the "spell in a can" rules require magic items to be their own separate standard action, not a free part of another action. Its about one step away from the use activated truestrike.

You are again Ignoring rules that are inconvenient to you while simultaneously complaining about my lack of system mastery. Can the insults and mischaracterizations.

I use the arrow, instead of shooting them, it casts dimension anchor, how hard was that? If he manages to slip a spell in there, I rely on my defenses, because that's the last spell he will ever cast.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Kais's strategy is entirely reliant on being able to make unlimited spell-trigger items, to illustrate that fighters don't have a heavily restricted toolset for dealing with enemies at high levels.

Having unlimited time and money and carte blanche to create situational custom magic items is not anything like standard.


Quote:
I use the arrow, instead of shooting them, it casts dimension anchor, how hard was that?

Well you have a problem there. You're either holding an action to hit someone with a magic item (that the wizard has every reason to be able to identify) or you're holding an action to hit someone with your bow when they try to cast something, you can't do both (even with quickdraw) If you have the bow out, the situation plays out as above and the wizard ports away. If you have the magic item out you can't interrupt the wizard and he just dominates you

-also if you have the magic item out you don't threaten any area with your bow, so they can move away with impunity.

I haven't even gotten into what could go wrong with the plan, the wizard could have Acrobatics (mine do) , overland flight (SOP) or worse... be a diviner. If he's a diviner you die.

Grand Lodge

Like I said earlier, he gets one cast, that's it. Then he's a smear on the landscape.

Actually, I could just come in, beat him on initiative, and smear him all over the landscape anyway. No silly magic item creation, just shoot him, a lot, in a very short period of time. Takes a full-round action, but it won't matter.


Kais86 wrote:
Like I said earlier, he gets one cast, that's it. Then he's a smear on the landscape.

Maze. I win.

Grand Lodge

WPharolin wrote:
Kais86 wrote:
Like I said earlier, he gets one cast, that's it. Then he's a smear on the landscape.
Maze. I win.

Beat you on initiative, no you don't. That and you have to deal with me when I get out, if I found you once I'll find you again.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Kais86 wrote:
Beat you on initiative, no you don't.

Do you two want to go resolve this on the playground?

"Bang, I got you!"

"Nuh uh!"

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Kais86 wrote:
Like I said earlier, he gets one cast, that's it.
Kais86 wrote:


Beat you on initiative, no you don't.

The contradictions in your dialogue are amusing.

Grand Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Kais86 wrote:
Like I said earlier, he gets one cast, that's it.
Kais86 wrote:


Beat you on initiative, no you don't.
The contradictions in your dialogue are amusing.

After I said "He gets one cast" I remembered I could just hit the wizard hard enough to kill him outright.


I like how he is a master tracker now to.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

WPharolin wrote:
I like how he is a master tracker now to.

You continuing this PVP battle nonsense is as obnoxious as Kais, mind.

Grand Lodge

WPharolin wrote:
I like how he is a master tracker now to.

Not that hard, it's not exactly like the DCs are that high, it doesn't help that wizards are crap at stealth, besides, do you really think you can hide your level 20 butt anywhere? Things happen to high-level characters, whether they like it or not, people notice those things, and talk about it. Making finding another high-level character pretty easy.


Now I want to throw my PCs at a fighter NPC with the supernatural power to shrug off almost any save-based ability with a cry of "NUH UH!"

When he shoots someone with an arrow they take massive damage unless they roll Will to disbelieve his cry of "I hit you! You're dead now!"

His speciality is killing wizards who are idiots.


Kais86 wrote:
Not that hard, it's not exactly like the DCs are that high, it doesn't help that wizards are crap at stealth, besides, do you really think you can hide your level 20 butt anywhere? Things happen to high-level characters, whether they like it or not, people notice those things, and talk about it. Making finding another high-level character pretty easy.

Um...I fly all day. Forget that? As a high level character I also regularly teleport long distances and plane shift between planes of existence. You are living in a fantasy world. Which is a pretty good place to live in if you like Dungeons and Dragons but it isn't helping you any.


Kais86 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

You still assuming the auto-hit. It ain't that easy.

Why am I going to break the math down to that level if you know how I am getting it? Now if you said you had no idea how I got those numbers then that is a good reason for a breakdown. oops I was off by one, so its a 13.

As an example I need to know how you are assuming you are going to hit this caster, know the caster is not relying on AC for defense most likely.
At the very least you need to get past displacement and mirror image.

I have to go now, but I will be back later.

Permanent arcane sight, the wizard will be glowing with a bunch of different auras, the images won't be. Displacement doesn't work when the fighter has improved precise shot, which by 20th, he would be out of otherwise useful feats, and would have probably taken that. He will probably miss on a 1, or some other small number, so I'm pretty sure he's going to hit, even invisibility doesn't particularly work, as having a permanent see invisible is even cheaper. Darkness won't help, because of goggles of darkvision, or another permanent darkvision spell.

When declaring large numbers (those being above10 in this system) you should show your work, it's good practice for when you are in a game anyway, and you don't have to do it on the spot like you would in an actual game.

Arcane sight is just detect magic on steroids. It does not do anything about mirror image since it only detects auras. Greater Arcane sight is the one that tells you what the spell is, but even knowing what spell is up does not mean those images go away.

There is also the issue of the 3 rounds still being needed to even determine auras. The only thing arcane sight does is remove the concentration needed, which is a standard action. It does not remove the time limit.


Kais86 wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Have you managed to thwart the wizards ability to walk around a corner and cast spells unmolested yet?
Not any more than the wizard has thwarted my ability to walk away, wait for his spells to wear off, walk back, and kill him when he's out of magic.

You must be skipping post(particularly mine) and also have dumb wizards if that works.


Kais86 wrote:
....plus he has to make that concentration roll he needs an 18 to pass.

Let's do this from the top. You still have yet to hit him. Before we go there though lets mick a level. If you say 20 you get mazed out, and come back to a bunch of monsters that can probably kick your butt. Most fighters dont have a high intelligence.

10 seems fair enough. Most game dont make it to 20 anyway.

Now how are you going to hit this wizard/sorcerer?


Kais86 wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
Kais86 wrote:

I have Arcane Sight! I SEE MAGIC! You will not fool me with a clumsy spell like that.

i have a bone to pick with that.

Arcane sight has a range of personal, meaning that the caster is only allowed to cast the spell upon themselves and no one else.

sorry, but your fighter ain't gettin it without DM fiat.

Read This you Baka

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#brew-potion

That's how.

What happened to it being permanent? Arcane sight is also 1 minute per level. How do you know when to drink the potion? That wont help you at all.


Kais86 wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
Kais86 wrote:
Show me. I couldn't find it.
A personal spell is not a spell that targets one or more creatures. This is borne out by the example potions, where every single spell that could be turned into a potion is on the table, while personal spells are not.

Implications, implications everywhere. That's not how this works and you know it.

Starbuck_II wrote:

Potions must target 1 or more creatures: you aren't 1 creature in the target, you are only personal.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#brew-potion

You are a creature yes? The spell targets you yes? Then it's still plausible.
PRD. Making magic Items-potion section wrote:
The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.


Kais86 wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Kais86 wrote:
Eh, so I have it made into a pair of goggles, or add it to the goggles with see invisibility on it. Not a huge change, it's a bit more expensive, but still plausible.
So are these goggles in Ultimate Combat?

RAW states you can make items using any spell. I'm not sure why people take the examples in the back of the book as THE ONLY ITEMS THAT EXIST IN THE GAME. For Iomedae's sake, there isn't a potion or scroll list.

Edit:Also, how is it you don't have that book yet? It's like 10$ for a digital copy. Also, pretty much the only magic items in it are for the gunslinger, though I can think of a few uses for some of those scopes. One of which is SEE INVISIBILITY!

That requires GM Fiat. RAW also says wizards can research new spells that have not been created. You don't really want to go that route.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

wraithstrike, you just made six posts in a row, all of them repeating points other people have covered, while also accusing Kais of not reading the thread.


Kais86 wrote:

No, I mean you didn't point out the flaw in master craftsman. The delay is to get me on your turn, which now that I'm thinking about it, really doesn't mean much. I move up to you, I hold my action, you cast a spell, I interrupt you with an AoO, you take your two concentration checks, one to cast the spell defensively (which you will presumably pass, as it isn't very hard all things told, 33 tops), the second when I use my held action to shoot you, if you choose to move first, it provokes an AoO, which I use to trip you, then if you cast, I interrupt you with the delayed action.

You will provoke every time you stand, which is no big deal to me, just more shots.
You will provoke when you move, which I will use to trip you.
You will provoke when you cast, which probably won't mean much, as you will probably make your defensive cast.
My delay will keep your spells in check though.

How are you getting an AoO on a hold action? If you get into a wizards face he either uses a quicken spell(no provoke), or he cast defensively. You said hold action, not ready action. You still have to bypass mirror image.

If the fighter has to depend on custom made items that just shows him weakness. As to the amount of effort in a 20 level game I make my players go by the rules, not just allow them to make things up, including items, and most GM's do. All you are proving is that if a fighter has to play by the RAW, without depending on GM mercy he has no chance.

Now come up with a strategy that does not depend on GM mercy, and has no rules errors, and we can talk.

PS:I am getting bored now.


A Man In Black wrote:
wraithstrike, you just made six posts in a row, all of them repeating points other people have covered, while also accusing Kais of not reading the thread.

I will stop now until this guy comes up with something that does not depend on "mother may I". :)

Liberty's Edge

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Kais86 wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Kais86 wrote:
Like I said earlier, he gets one cast, that's it.
Kais86 wrote:


Beat you on initiative, no you don't.
The contradictions in your dialogue are amusing.
After I said "He gets one cast" I remembered I could just hit the wizard hard enough to kill him outright.

Piece of advice.

Never get into a discussion of Wizard power unless you are dealing with people who will post builds.

A theoretical Wizard has all spells at all times, memorized as many times as they need it that day.

A practical wizard actually has to be built for what it thinks will happen and hope that it prepared properly.

Too many DMs have spoiled wizard players by not putting deadlines and timers, having a 15 minute combat day, being to predictable with enemies who don't adapt strategies or set traps and ambushes which don't allow casters prep time, not checking to see what the nerfs are in the spells, etc...

If you look at the modules and APs you will find these things, and you will notice the game plays out fine with the Wizard being very powerful sometimes and very weak other times.

It is the all win or all fail class. Either the most powerful or "Guys, I don't really have anything memorized that all that great for this one..."

And before anyone says it, they clarified that detect magic does detect the arcane bonded item so that little Achilles heal is exposed if they go that direction to have any spell available once a day...as if the fact that it is once a day wasn't enough of a limiting factor...


ciretose wrote:


Piece of advice.

Never get into a discussion of Wizard power unless you are dealing with people who will post builds.

Build from an old thread


wraithstrike wrote:
I will stop now until this guy comes up with something that does not depend on "mother may I". :)

Both sides of this pointless argument are guilty of that.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
ciretose wrote:

Never get into a discussion of character power unless you are dealing with people who will post builds.

Let's be honest, he's been claiming a lot of things for his fighter without showing a full build as well.

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