Love the peicemail and called shot rules as well as most of the archetypes.
Have no problem with anything with cultural flair be it asian perhistoric or otherwise.
My biggest issue is the caster stuff which we didn't need at all we didn't need new spells the only magic i wanted we didnt get which was some new magic items.
Oh and still can't understand the gunslinger = broken/overpowered issue.
Oh and still can't understand the gunslinger = broken/overpowered issue.
really, a core archery fighter with a composite longbow is going to be much nastier, they hit harder, get a longer range, aren't as heavily feat taxed, have cheaper ammunition, get to make more attacks over the course of the battle and don't require actions to reload.
the overvalued benefit of guns is that you get to make a ranged touch attack in your first increment. key word being first. which is always in a range where most level appropriate monsters can either get free swings on you anyway, or take a single move action to close the gap.
but alchemical splash vials target Touch AC as well and they also have an easier time ignoring damage reduction. and they are typically slightly cheaper than bullets.
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Most of the people complaining about gunfighters are the ones who didn't want it in their fantasy... "Oops sorry i got blackpowder in your Cheerios"
There's stuff I'll never use in these books, but I don't complain about it because it's just options, it's not Core, the only books that're core are the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary.
People wanted gunfighters. Golarion has an area where guns are made, If you don't want guns there, blow it up in a wild Magical conflagration. Numeria is there because of the classic D&D Modules, Frog Temple, and Barrier Peaks. I plan on eventually running an Expedition to the Barrier Peaks game. Maybe the person who wants to play a Warforged gets to start in Numeria. Or perhaps they start in Zobeck and the WarForged type character is a clockwork thing.
In your world make it your world, just don't complain about the options others of us actually WANT.
After hearing about how Asia-dominated this book was on these boards, I was hesitant about picking it up.
I did anyway, and am happy with my decision.
The Asian stuff (which I find absolutely obnoxious) doesn't take up as much space in the book as I'd expected, and is easy to ignore.
Same here (although i wasn't hesitant about buying the book), i am happy that asain themed stuff don't take 3/4 of the book. I have hard time swallowing the existance of monks (although the qinggong helped).
I do admit that it is unpleasant to hear that the game's lead designer favors Wizards above all other classes. I really would have preferred that this book had nothing to offer casters at all. That space could have been better used for more Fighter awesomeness.
First of all that is something that i heard here on the forums, i have no proof of that, and also i didn't say anything about "favors Wizards above all other classes" i said that i heard that he is fan of wizards. Two tottally different things.
i am happy that asain themed stuff don't take 3/4 of the book.
No, it only took up 30% of the book with gun stuff taking up another 30% of the book. 20% went into new/optional rules which many people won't even use.
That leaves only 20% for general flair for the general audience.
Hey ya'll, just trying to help confine UC stuff to a single thread, so I have a question for you that have the book already:
Can a gunslinger use Vital Strike at the same time as Dead Shot?
No. Dead Shot is a full round action. Vital Strike, et al., requires a standard action.
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Now, the book has 256 pages.
ASIAN STUFF (Ninja, Samurai, Eastern Gear):
Classes: 8 pages Samurai and Ninja, if Monk counts: 12 pages
Eastern Gear: 7 pages
Let's be very liberal and consider approx. 5 pages of other chapters to be asian-themed and we're at 25 pages at most. That's 10%
GUN STUFF
Gunslinger: 4 pages
Gun-related Archetypes: 5 pages
Guns: 9 pages
Additional stuff (feats etc): approx 5 pages
Total: 23 pages. That's less than 10%
In other words: Less Raving, more Dork please.
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i am happy that asain themed stuff don't take 3/4 of the book.No, it only took up 30% of the book with gun stuff taking up another 30% of the book. 20% went into new/optional rules which many people won't even use.
That leaves only 20% for general flair for the general audience.
No. Dead Shot is a full round action. Vital Strike, et al., requires a standard action.Hey ya'll, just trying to help confine UC stuff to a single thread, so I have a question for you that have the book already:
Can a gunslinger use Vital Strike at the same time as Dead Shot?
Though they can't take Vital Strike they do get Deadly Shot which (to me) looks like how everyone has been asking them to make vital strike work.
It auto-scales with iterative attacks, has a better chance of hitting, does a LOT more damage, works with haste and in general is just BETTER and cheaper then VS.
I have to agree with Ciretose on almost all counts. Ultimate Combat is a good book, but it's not the great book I was hoping for.
The archetypes were incredible, the feats appear to be good overall, but I'm still skimming through. The variant rules are intriguing, but should have been fleshed out in greater detail, examples provided, etc.
Basically, rather than Ultimate Combat, I think we got "The Sourcebook that justifies 3 new classes and firearms - with cool extra stuff".
On the one hand, with the samurai & ninja being alternate classes, I can accept it since alternate classes are supposed to be "expanded archetypes". The Gunslinger, though, is a poor fit and as the OP suggested, would have been better served in a Steampunk sourcebook or other sourcebook that suits firearm-heavy genres.
I was pleased with the implementation of the firearms rules. I expected to hate them but found them to be well done.
However, I was completely turned off by the example/ascertation that Golarion is now an "Emerging Guns" setting. Candidly, NO F'ING WAY. I knew things were going to be going this route by the retconned Firearms section in the Inner Sea World Guide (from the clearly Very Rare Guns defined in the PF Chronicles Campaign Setting book). There was no reason for this other than to justify the inclusion of the Gunslinger class.
While I applaud Paizo for the guidance provided in the firearms section and their acknowledgement of the impact advanced firearms can have on the setting, it rang very hollow given that the Gunslinger class and the advanced firearms integrate better conceptually than the blackpowder/primitive firearms. I didn't want my Golarion radically changed, thank you very much.
(Aside: So now we have to wait and see how much of an impact UC, firearms, and the Gunslinger have on Golarion campaign products, modules, and APs. I'm praying for a minimal impact but I'm not optimistic.)
So the book delivered in many respects but fell short in several significant ones. And comparing it against Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Magic scores higher, even though I tend to not favor high fantasy and prefer more classical swords-n-sorcery...
...and for me that's a shame, b/c I wanted to like UC on par with the APG.
Ultimate Combat, as I stated above, is a good book. Perhaps on further reading and integration into my campaigns, a very good book. But it's not the great book I was hoping to see.
In your world make it your world, just don't complain about the options others of us actually WANT.
If the setting were a finite set of releases, I could get on board with that. Since I subscribe to a lot of Golarion-related product, I have a vested interest in the evolution of the campaign setting. While I don't begrudge anyone wanting firearms rules, and would actually champion them in another setting, or even on another planet in Golarion's solar system, I don't want the setting I've invested in since it's 1st release to thematically change to Iron Kingdoms, steampunk, or Wild West Fantasy.
The fact that the history, acceptance, and availability of firearms in the setting has already been changed from the initial campaign setting book to the expanded/updated version, is exhibit-freakin-A in what I DON'T want to see.
Yes, I can make the setting my own and will continue to do so. I also wish to continue to be interested in purchasing Golarion-related material -- so the canonical view of the setting is important to me as well.
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In other words: Less Raving, more Dork please.Gorby, I'm so glad I'm not fighting with you over Antagonize any more. The forums are a much better place when I find myself agreeing with 99% of what you say, as is usually the case.
Let's just never talk about Antagonize again.
Awww, I can feel the love.
I tend to be a bit of column A and a bit of column B, so don't be surprised when we disagree in one thread but are 100% on the same page in another :)
In today's episode of "Cirno's Broken Records" we have a top 5 hit since 2008: "GodWizards".
It's an oldie, but a goody.
Exotic wakizashi? FAIL. At least you could pretend the katana was a tachi or a stupid big katana or something. A fighter in a fantasy Japan game would have to burn two feats on EWP just to be able to use katana and wakizashi like a samurai.
Also, that means that the samurai and ninja start off with weapon proficiencies that are just better than their Western counterparts. Time to slice tanks while being inscrutable and exquisite. What is the sound of one Orientalist clapping?
Exotic weapons are just that, exotic.
I would be highly surprised if when Paizo does their eastern themed world book, that classes don't get a chapter that alters the weapons list. Great sword becoming exotic, rapier as well, and probably several other weapons getting changed to EW. Then the eastern weapons being re-set to martial instead.
Anything else beggars the suspension of disbelief.
I sort of see RJGrady's point, though. There are certain exotic weapon that are exotic only from a game statistics point of view, and that bothers me. I mean, does a wakazashi require special training to use the pointy end effectively? Not as much as an urumi probably needs.
Exotic weapons are just that, exotic.
I would be highly surprised if when Paizo does their eastern themed world book, that classes don't get a chapter that alters the weapons list. Great sword becoming exotic, rapier as well, and probably several other weapons getting changed to EW. Then the eastern weapons being re-set to martial instead.
Anything else beggars the suspension of disbelief.
That would be quite keen, I think. I'd love to see a scene in game where a samurai picks up a rapier and then gets a quizzical look on his face as he tries chop an enemies head off with a -4 attack penalty. Then Ameiko tells him "no, you stab with it. See? staaaaab".
I sort of see RJGrady's point, though. There are certain exotic weapon that are exotic only from a game statistics point of view, and that bothers me. I mean, does a wakazashi require special training to use the pointy end effectively? Not as much as an urumi probably needs.
Seriously, why is that humans can use elven shortswords with no problem, but you can't use a Japanese shortsword unless you're a member of an Oriental class?
That would be quite keen, I think. I'd love to see a scene in game where a samurai picks up a rapier and then gets a quizzical look on his face as he tries chop an enemies head off with a -4 attack penalty. Then Ameiko tells him "no, you stab with it. See? staaaaab".Exotic weapons are just that, exotic.
I would be highly surprised if when Paizo does their eastern themed world book, that classes don't get a chapter that alters the weapons list. Great sword becoming exotic, rapier as well, and probably several other weapons getting changed to EW. Then the eastern weapons being re-set to martial instead.
Anything else beggars the suspension of disbelief.
LOL
I think what you will see is something like this :
Characters from <area> treat the following weapons as martial : Katana, Wakizashi, Tetsu, Three-section-Staff, Tonfa, <continue list>
Characters from <area> treat the following weapons as Exotic : Rapier, All Picks, Starknife, Scimitar, Trident, Lance, Scythe, <continue list>
Probably in the equipment section.
I see what he is saying as well. I get the katana as it is a exotic one handed weapon but can be used two handed without that training...but the curved short sword?
I really want to know what kind of idiot needs special training to use a wakizashi.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I'm sure others will disagree, but I feel the huge gains to initiative alone would outweigh the cost. Being guranteed to go first in a fight is a really big deal, especially as a spellcaster.
It is important, and previously ONLY Wizards (Diviners) had that ability, which was frequently cited as a ZOMGBROKEN quality of wizards and why they owned every other class.
Except, as of Ultimate Combat, now it can also be done by:
Cleric (Divine Strategist)
Fighter (Tactician)
Magus (Kensai) - slightly different but still potent initiative stuff
Monk (Sohei)
"I WINZORZ INITIATIVE" is no longer a wizard-restricted trick in Pathfinder. This is not precisely a downgrade of the wizard on absolute terms, but rather an undercutting of his presumptive superiority by letting other classes in on their schtick.
I really want to know what kind of idiot needs special training to use a wakizashi.
Yeah, that about sums up my issue with treating Exotic proficiency as "something that looks a little different from what I'm used to".
Because honestly, you might go "whatzat?" at first, but after maybe one combat using the thing, you will go "Oh, it's just like my gladius!".
:rolleyes:
I'm not too rankled about the mounts, either. Samurai are sufficiently mount-independent for my tastes and I can always just look up the basic stats.
Although I would have loved to see Samurai get an alternative for their Mounts ( and the Mounted Archer ability ), I think of them now as bonuses... the class is pretty damn good even without them.
If you really want to get rid of them, allow Samurai to take the Musketeer archetype... replace Expert Trainer with Mounted Archer as the second trade-off, and you are golden. As had been pointed out in the UC playtest, Samurais with guns were not all that uncommon.
I really want to know what kind of idiot needs special training to use a wakizashi.Yeah, that about sums up my issue with treating Exotic proficiency as "something that looks a little different from what I'm used to".
Because honestly, you might go "whatzat?" at first, but after maybe one combat using the thing, you will go "Oh, it's just like my gladius!".
:rolleyes:
There is a few I can understand, not a whole lot but some. Most of the Asian weapons are just that Asian weapons, no harder to use because they are Asian. I feel it should be harder to learn and use then a normal weapons. Bastard sword, Khopesh, yes. Curved short sword, No.
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Not getting til Monday, but from what I'm hearing is there needs to be book called 'Really Cool Varient Rules' (or maybe Unearthed Arcana) that half and the stuff that made it into Ultimate Combat could go, like Bronze age, stone age rules performance fighting etc could go along with a lot of cool ideas they haven't used.
Then they could take out the variants and expand the base archtypes, more non wizard spells and perhaps a few more feats and other types of goodness people would use on a regular basis. It might be fifty pages shorter but it would be getting fewer mixed reviews and more 'this rocks my world like a Seoni (or Valeros) striptease.'
I removed a post. Play nice.
Edit: Removed a couple more.
I wouldn't make a book with all the variant rules presented in APG/UM/UC. Stuff from APs would be good, but maybe a free dl with 'core' variant rules after purchasing 'Ultimate Rules' supplement.
I'm disappointed to hear that there is no finesse reach weapon.
That is a little of an oxymoron, IMO. IRL, a long weapon, like a spear, requires strength more-so than finesse to be wielded efficiently.
I'm disappointed to hear that there is no finesse reach weapon.
I thought this is what the Whip is for?
You think that Pathfinder weapons are supposed to represent real life? Look at the dire flail, two-bladed sword, orc double axe, scythe....
If you wish, you could use the crunch for the scythe to represent a Pollaxe. Piercing? Yes. Slashing? Yes. Hook for tripping, vicious blows.
I can not help for the other weapons :p
Ultimate Combat continues in the grand tradition of being an excellent book for wizards and a fairly good book for clerics to boot. Awesome buff spells? No, bards don't get those. Hilarious avoidance spells that harm others while defussing damage? No, magus doesn't get those. Great curse with auto-scaling DC to daze enemies when they crit and damage them when they attack? If you think the class that gets this is called "witch" you would be wrong. Wizards can now not only supplement but outright equal most full-BAB classes at combat maneuvers, much less the non-full BAB ones.
[...]
Why did Ultimate Combat become yet another goodie bag for casters? You gave fighters literally nothing in Ultimate Magic. It seems my fears that were expressed during the playtest were all entirely founded in reality.Niche protection? That means "wizards can do it too," right? Anyways, here's a book devoted almost entirely for wizards and nothing at all for fighters. And here's a book that fighters and wizards get to share. Now we're all fair. Just to make sure it's extra fair, in the book about fighters and barbarians and rangers, we'll give wizards a spell that lets them auto-succeed at casting defensively.
Edit: Seriously you knew this post was coming
+ 100
Fighters, what did they get? Noting. All classes got feats, but did we get 2 pages of fighter-only stuff? No.It's been posted before, but I'll post it again.
I've looked over Pathfinder's Fighters and still find them titanically boring. I applaud Pathfinder for giving more combat Feats, but the Feats presented are available to all classes, not just Fighters.Fighters get nothing unique to call their own. Barbarians get Rage points (awesome), Rogues get Rogue Tricks (awesome), Rangers and Paladins get their own host of abilities (from before). I cannot fathom why Fighters would not have exclusive and cool options like the Barbarians and Rogues. Yes, they get more Feats but everybody likes things that are exclusive to that class. That's why people play prestige classes.
Fighters should have a unique set of abilities, just like the other classes (heh...that sounds ironic but you know what I mean).
Furthermore, all martial classes need some capacity to move and use more than 1 attack. [...]
There should be a way for the Fighter, if not other martial classes to circumvent this limitation. [...]
Ranger, Barbarian, Paladin, they all got their own thing, but the fighter doesn't. Sure the fighter get more feats but they do not have " exclusive and cool options". More feats have no value "per se" if the fighters still gasp for air at higher levels when compared to Paladins, Barbarians and to some extent Rangers. Not to mention the wizard.
What is unique about the fighter? Nothing. I've heard the argument, well fighters have feats as their thing and the APG and UM is filled with feats. Well ALL classes can grab those feats. Except for the very few and lame fighter-only feats. Most of the fighter-only feats are feat taxes anyway. Weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization are all needed just to be able to be descant at what they should excel in.Fighters get more feats? Do they. A ranger get bonus spells at level 2 and every 4 levels thereafter, but a Switch hitting ranger doesn't have doesn't have to pick PBS and PS. = 2 feats. He get good reflex save and endurance. 2 more feats. He get 6 skills per level and good class skills. I've heard there was a campaign feat that gave fighters 2 more skills per level every time they leveled up as a fighter so 6 skills per level that's 1,5 feat. TWF? Hell rangers are better at that to. They don't need dex and can therefore boost their str and wisdom . And if you play The Guide Archetype you don't even need to worry about not meeting your favored enemy. At level 11 you can even move and full attack once per day. barbarians get that to Move and full attack. Cost them 3 rage powers. And barbs get CAGM, Unexpected Strike to help them with damage and Clear Mind, action. Superstition to help them with saves. Fighters get more feat. With int 13 + combat exp + improved trip they can trip as an standard action.
With Knockdown a barb can do it as a free action no feat needed and no int needed. With rage giving the barb a bonus to str their CMB will be great.
A fighter can spend one more feat and pick Greater Trip and get a bonus to CMB. The barb can get Strength Surge and her barbarian level on one Strength check or combat maneuver check.
Fighter get more feat, sure. He needs them bad and he still falls short. The fighter doesn't suck. He is a viable class, but not much more. Why should anyone play a fighter higher than level 5? I don't know. Level 5 fighter and get Gloves of Dueling and Sash of the War Champion and then go ranger, barbarian or Paladin.
Armor training, bravery, weapon training, and feats exclusive only to fighters are not unique enough for some I suppose.
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Yar.
I don't know why, but I simply cannot resist...
ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS
~P
Armor training, bravery, weapon training, and feats exclusive only to fighters are not unique enough for some I suppose.
Armor training, bravery, weapon training are no big deal. Once you hit level 5 fighter you got all you need.
feats exclusive only to fighters? They were only a few in the AGP and most if not all of them sucked.
As for UC, I think there is one.
So the anser is no. It's no unique.
I guess we could remove siomte evil from paladions and ask them is all the other cool stuff the got isn't unique enough.
Or why not remove all range powers. Hell isn't the barbarian unique enough?
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Armor training, bravery, weapon training, and feats exclusive only to fighters are not unique enough for some I suppose.Armor training, bravery, weapon training are no big deal. Once you hit level 5 fighter you got all you need.
feats exclusive only to fighters? They were only a few in the AGP and most if not all of them sucked.
As for UC, I think there is one.
So the anser is no. It's no unique.
I guess we could remove siomte evil from paladions and ask them is all the other cool stuff the got isn't unique enough.
Or why not remove all range powers. Hell isn't the barbarian unique enough?
If you can show me any other class that can take 21+ feats, I'll be obliged.
What is the sound of one Orientalist clapping?
"CL". THE OTHER ORIENTALIST MAKES THE "AP" SOUND.
If you can show me any other class that can take 21+ feats, I'll be obliged.Armor training, bravery, weapon training, and feats exclusive only to fighters are not unique enough for some I suppose.Armor training, bravery, weapon training are no big deal. Once you hit level 5 fighter you got all you need.
feats exclusive only to fighters? They were only a few in the AGP and most if not all of them sucked.
As for UC, I think there is one.
So the anser is no. It's no unique.
I guess we could remove siomte evil from paladions and ask them is all the other cool stuff the got isn't unique enough.
Or why not remove all range powers. Hell isn't the barbarian unique enough?
Quantity counts not quality?
True they get more feats, but getting feats per se is nothing unique. I think 99 % of anyone playing a melee fighter would be happy to trade 4 feats for pounce and 4 skills per level. Just like the barbarian.And as pointed other classes have powers that make any feat look silly. Hell at higher levels wizards alters reality.
Any other class that can take 21+ feats? Well rangers get 15 feats and endurance makes it 16. Evasion 17. Wait, there is no such feat. Dodging fireballs in a mithral fullplate. Would the ranger feel less unique if the fighter could get this as a feat?
So by your logic getting more is enough to make something unique
Hey, here is an idea.
Anyone not liking this?
I guess a rogue lovers who was upset the ninja is a better rogue than the rogue gets my point.