This is something that's been bugging me for a while. Feats are supposed to be things you can take to improve your characters abilities. Metamagic is specifically supposed to either improve your spells, or add benefits to them. Looking at healing spells, there are very few uses for metamagic (other than the very broad Still/Silent/Quicken, which are each potentially useful on over 90% of spells)
Two feats that can impact healing spells, Empower and Maximize, are actually WORSE than their level equivalent spells (unless you apply the Empower or Maximize for free). For example, at spell level 3, when cast by a 5th level caster you get these averages:
Cure Serious Wounds: 18.5
Cure Light Wounds Empowered: 14.25
This disparity increases as your caster level goes up.
The only option to get better at casting healing magic is to be a cleric with the healing domain. All other casters who have access to those spells have to rely on magic items to increase their effectiveness.
Am I the only one bothered by this? That spending a resource (a feat) and applying it to a spell actually makes it worse than the unmodified equivalent at that level. Short of just rewriting all the healing spells, I haven't been able to come up with a solution. I'm not necessarily looking at just changes to how healing interacts with Empower and Maximize, but just adding some sort of option that healers can take (via metamagic feats) to improve their healing magic.
Also, the Mass Cure spells have become pretty pathetic IMO. Mass Light and Mass Moderate are never better than a Channel Energy on average (except when modified by Empowered... but the difference between an empowered spell and the unmodified spell already at that level is tiny).
Not all feats are supposed to be universal in application. Metamagic was primarily designed for wizards and sorcerers who aren't really that focused on healing.
Hence why I posted this in the House Rules/Homebrew section. I understand that not every metamagic feat applies to every spell. I even stated that multiple times. I'm also looking at possibilities outside these two feats that I've analyzed. I thought I had made that pretty clear, but I responded like this to help make it even more clear.
I am interested in options. If you aren't, this probably isn't a very interesting thread for you.
The only option to get better at casting healing magic is to be a cleric with the healing domain. All other casters who have access to those spells have to rely on magic items to increase their effectiveness.
Am I the only one bothered by this? That spending a resource (a feat) and applying it to a spell actually makes it worse than the unmodified equivalent at that level. *Snip*
The cleric isn't the only option. I've recently played an Oracle with the Life Mystery and did and excellent job keeping the party on their feet.
Cast Cure Light and heal 1d8+11
Cast any spell that healed hit point damage without provoking attacks of opportunity.
Turn into a Positive Energy Elemental and heal people just by touching them, which can stack with spells.
Channel almost as well as a Cleric, and do it as a Move Action with the Quick Channel feat.
As for other casters needing magic items and using up their feats, it's never really bothered me. If I wanted to play a healer, I made the character capable of healing, using whatever was available at the level we were playing. But I also usually played a cleric or druid.
You're right... the Life Mystery also has benefits for a healer.
I guess I'll reword what I'm looking for again.
I'm looking for ideas to make metamagic options viable for healing spells.
I'm looking for ideas to make metamagic options viable for healing spells.
Ars Metamagica sounds like what you're looking for.
I'm looking for ideas to make metamagic options viable for healing spells.Ars Metamagica sounds like what you're looking for.
Without having bought it to read it, I'm guessing it involves more dice rolls to cast magic. I've played with some systems like that and I already feel like there's enough dice rolling.
I guess the general consensus is that there is no issue and I'm the only person this bothers. Healing spells should not be affected by metamagic feats (other than Still/Silent/Quicken... cause if I don't repeat myself someone will point that out).
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Quicken can be nice. Able to heal a target with two spells in a round?
Also REACH! Reach can be your friend!
I guess the general consensus is that there is no issue and I'm the only person this bothers. Healing spells should not be affected by metamagic feats (other than Still/Silent/Quicken... cause if I don't repeat myself someone will point that out).
I didn't realize there was a problem, only because I've never done the math.
The "role" of a healer is for the most part an ooc utility. So largely we're talking about ooc heals, which many people houserule as automatically maximized. This leads people to take for granted a heal-capable class's healing capability. A lot of people don't want to be the "healer" in the first place and if they are the healer, they don't want to have to spec for healing competence, they just want it to be there so they can spec for other cooler things.
That being said, I'm a big un-fan of "gotcha" feats that seem good but actually aren't. (Are "gotcha" feats evil? I wonder.) I certainly agree that if a player invests into feats, they should get mileage out of them.
Well, if the idea is to come up with homebrew metamagic feats to make in-combat healing more effective...
A feat to allow you to use 'touch' spells on allies at range.
A metamagic feat to allow you to heal two people at once as long as they're both next to you.
A 'delayed' healing you can cast on someone before combat and which will activate in a specified number of rounds.
A feat that allows you to turn your excess healing into temporary HP.
A feat to allow you to consume extra spell slots for extra healing (maybe not metamagic as that's not usually how metamagic works).
A feat to allow you to power up your healing spells by spending a 'channel energy'.
A feat to allow you to power up your healing spells by sacrificing your own HP.
A feat to allow you to use 'touch' spells on allies at range.
Well, we already have reach spell. Your cure spells are now range: close
Isn't the issue just the metamagic itself ?
sure empowered cure light wounds sucks.. so does empowered burning hands, meta magic is not increasing power of spells it increases flexibility.
If you want metamagic to add power you should probably change the rules for metamagic.
- Allow metamagic to be applied spontaneously to a prepared spell or spell known without increasing level, though the character still has to be able to cast a spell of the modified spell level.
- make it usable 3/day if it is a 1 lvl increase, 2/day if it is a 2 lvl increase and 1/day if it increases lvl by 3 or 4.. or something similar
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Well, if the idea is to come up with homebrew metamagic feats to make in-combat healing more effective...
A feat to allow you to use 'touch' spells on allies at range.
Already exists, "Reach Spell"
A metamagic feat to allow you to heal two people at once as long as they're both next to you.
This is pretty much covered by Channel energy, but if you're a class that doesn't have channel then I'd say this would be useful. It should only be able to work on "Cure" spells, and each of the two people being healed should get the dice but only 1/2 of the excess healing, meaning it would affect each ally as if you were a caster of 1/2 your level.
A 'delayed' healing you can cast on someone before combat and which will activate in a specified number of rounds.
This one would be tough, and I could see it being wasted a lot. Instead, maybe a feat that adds fast healing to cure spells, so that if you use cure light on an ally, they get fast healing 1 for your Cha mod rounds. If you use cure mod, then they get fast healing 2. etc.
A feat that allows you to turn your excess healing into temporary HP.
What do you mean by "excess healing"? As in if you heal someone more than their max HP, they get temp HP? It could work, maybe temp HP equal to half the excess amount, not the full amount.
A feat to allow you to consume extra spell slots for extra healing (maybe not metamagic as that's not usually how metamagic works).
This is fair, it would be sort of like the feat that lets you make a ray attack by sacrificing a spell slot, but instead you use it to power up heal spells or energy channeling by 1 dice per spell level sacrificed.
A feat to allow you to power up your healing spells by spending a 'channel energy'.
Same as above, totally doable.
A feat to allow you to power up your healing spells by sacrificing your own HP.
This could work, you could call it "Sacrificial healing" and allow the caster to give up to his own level in bonus healing, which he takes as damage.
I think some of these are great ideas. I also feel that healing doesn't benefit enough from feats. I agree there are definitely ways to make yourself a better healer, but that doesn't mean you should have to build your entire character around healing, like the Life oracle does.
Well, if the idea is to come up with homebrew metamagic feats to make in-combat healing more effective...
A feat to allow you to use 'touch' spells on allies at range.
A metamagic feat to allow you to heal two people at once as long as they're both next to you.
A 'delayed' healing you can cast on someone before combat and which will activate in a specified number of rounds.
A feat that allows you to turn your excess healing into temporary HP.
A feat to allow you to consume extra spell slots for extra healing (maybe not metamagic as that's not usually how metamagic works).
A feat to allow you to power up your healing spells by spending a 'channel energy'.
A feat to allow you to power up your healing spells by sacrificing your own HP.
Nice ideas - and some of them similar to the ones I had.
However, I don't think they should be made into metamagic feats. Instead those could be healing augmenting feats like Augment Summoning and similar feats - adding extra options to certain spells and group of spells.|
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Here are a few of the ones I will be putting into my own game thanks to your ideas:
Extended Healing
Requirements: Able to spontaneously cast Cure light wounds, Channel energy +2d6
When you successfully cast any spell that heals an ally’s HP, you may sacrifice one daily use of channel energy to give the target Fast Healing 1 for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier. When using this ability, you may choose to sacrifice two additional uses of channel energy to give your target an additional point of fast healing, up to a maximum of fast healing 5 (sacrificing 9 uses of channel energy), but this does not extend the duration of the fast healing.
Abundant Healing
Requirements: Able to spontaneously cast Cure light wounds
When you successfully cast any spell that heals an ally’s HP, if you heal your target to his/her maximum HP, your target gains temporary HP equal to half the excess (rounded down) healed by the spell. (For example, if your ally needs only 6 HP to be a full health, and you cast Cure light wounds for 12 points of healing, your ally is at full health and also gains 3 temporary HP).
Healing Surge
Requirements: Channel energy +3d6, Improved Channel or Selective Channeling
When you use your channel energy ability to heal your allies, you may choose to sacrifice a daily spell slot. For each spell level sacrificed, add +1d6 to the amount healed by that use of channel energy, to a maximum of +5d6. (For example, you expend a use of your channel energy to heal 5d6 of damage on your allies. You choose to sacrifice a 2nd level spell at the same time, raising the healing to 7d6 for that use of channel energy.)
Sacrificial Healing
Requirements: Able to spontaneously cast Cure light wounds
When you successfully cast any spell that heals an ally’s HP, you may choose to sacrifice up to your caster level in HP, and heal your target by that amount in addition. You cannot use this ability to lower your health below 1 HP.
i like the extended healing, though i was wondering what if you change the duration to your charisma modifier and the power to the number of dice your channel energy provided? or vice versa?
i think abundant healing is a hair stingy, but i also understand that it still blows away spells like false life.
why not cap abundant at your current dice of channel energy?
sacrificial is nice. maybe add a second feat that reduces the damage you recieve by your charisma as long as you sacrifice the maximum?
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i like the extended healing, though i was wondering what if you change the duration to your charisma modifier and the power to the number of dice your channel energy provided? or vice versa?
i think abundant healing is a hair stingy, but i also understand that it still blows away spells like false life.
why not cap abundant at your current dice of channel energy?
sacrificial is nice. maybe add a second feat that reduces the damage you recieve by your charisma as long as you sacrifice the maximum?
1. The duration already is your Charisma mod number of rounds :-P
2. Yeah i think it's probably fair as it is. This is a feat, after all, not a spell.
3. Capping at your current number of dice of channel is fine
4. I think that would probably be a little TOO good, even for two feats.
Without having bought it to read it, I'm guessing it involves more dice rolls to cast magic. I've played with some systems like that and I already feel like there's enough dice rolling.
Ars Metamagica uses a single die roll (the metamagic check) to apply metamagic effects to a spell on-the-fly while casting.
Some people are griping about how weak Clerics are against other classes. Lets bring back favorite of a god. If the god worshiped has healing as a domain, the favorited Cleric can subtract their level from the level taxes on feats. Thus they could empower a healing spell without using a higher spell slot, a few times a day.
have you taken a look at Rogue Genius Games Cure light Wounds feats. It's a really cheap PDF with feats that modify Cure Light Wounds (and other Cures with DM permision)
Bolstering Cure - Any over healing becomes Temporary Hit Points
Cloak of Healing - You Hold the cure and can release it later as a swift action
Lay on Cure - you can heal yourself with a cure as a Move action
Lingering Cure - Cure heals more but it does so at 1 hp/round
Shared Cure - Divide the healing between your target and yourself
Reinforced Cure - Combine Cure with a 0level spell
Depending on your GM a Low Wisdom caster could use Metamagic spells to fill in high level spell slots. (Some GMs allow it some don't)
for example: NPC Codex has a Cleric of Rovagug, focused on the physical stats so he only has a 14 wisdom. If he was high enough to cast 5th level spells you would fill those slots with Metamagiced spells. A Maximized Cure Mod is better than nothing.