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Following how informative the other thread I started was ("Feat Assessment: Sub-Par Feats")
I'd like to see if I can get similar information on the quality of Archetypes. It's really good to know which options suck and why. As a GM if gives me either:
A. Direction toward which things may warrant a houserule to change, or
B. Direction to help my players be effective and make sure they don't build something weak they're going to hate without realizing this. Because frankly, that's never fun.
or even
C. Which things are weak enough that I should straight up tell the players not to take them; because they're not worth me taking the time to rewrite the things.
This may result in me putting sticky notes all over the insides of my books to make sure I remember these things, but I'm okay with that.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets anything out of knowing which options are worth considering even more carefully before taking, or even staying as far away from as possible.
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I think that the bard archetype Geisha pretty much is king of sub-par archetypes right?
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The Trapper archetype (from UM - Ranger archetype) is only good for a 1-level dip for those Rogues Archetypes who still want Trapfinding.
Otherwise, I hate it with the utmost ferocity.
ooh. thats a workaround I'd never thought of. lol.
It would be nice if these could be expanded on a bit.
*why* are these options bad?
I've been hearing the Two Weapon fighter is worse than a regular fighter, and generally worse as a twfer, even with the extras, but I'm not entirely certain of what makes it so bad, for example.
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I've been hearing the Two Weapon fighter is worse than a regular fighter, and generally worse as a twfer, even with the extras, but I'm not entirely certain of what makes it so bad, for example.
The only reason I can think of for the TWW being worse than a regular fighter is that they don't get the normal armor training stuffs. But I've always been under the impression that with high dex characters (as this would be) you want to use Celestial Chain unless your dex is over +6 and then use bracers of armor. That's just what I thought, I could definitely be wrong about this.
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The Trapper loses all spells to become able to use Ranger traps, which are not very good to be honest.
And since you will get new (and sometimes quite good) interesting Ranger spells in future books (such as Ultimate Combat), this archetype will actually become worse and worse when compared with others who keep the spellcasting ability.
Problem with TWF, apart from needing high DEX, and thus getting less damage output (due to STR becoming secondary to DEX), is that you will need to double the cost of enchanting your weapons.
I mostly agree about the trapper ranger, don't forget that this is a good way for a rogue archetype who has lost trapfinding (in order to disable magic traps) to get it back with one level dip. Along with BAB, boost to ref and the much needed fort save and favored enemy bonus, martial weapon prof., medium armor prof. (in order for your rogue to wear a mithril breatplate).
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Not a bad 2-level dip for a melee class, +6 Str that stacks with rage and enhancement bonuses?Ragechemist. Lose some good abilities for a small bonus with a huge disadvantage that gets even worse as you gain levels.
Some archetypes are just useless, but the ragechemist is crippling if you take it.
This. If you don't go full ragechemist and just use it for a couple level dip, it gets pretty nice. Grab Iron Will and Improved Iron Will (if you have the feat for it) and you should be fine.
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Not a bad 2-level dip for a melee class, +6 Str that stacks with rage and enhancement bonuses?Ragechemist. Lose some good abilities for a small bonus with a huge disadvantage that gets even worse as you gain levels.
Some archetypes are just useless, but the ragechemist is crippling if you take it.
And a cumulative -2 on intelligence and will saves whenever you take damage and fail a will save. Yeah, who doesn't like such a character in his party?
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Cloistered cleric. You give up some of your armor proficiencies, most of your weapon proficiencies, one domain, and one spell of each level from your daily allotment. In exchange, you get better Knowledge skill checks, better saves vs. a limited set of spells, an expansion on Aid Another checks, and Scribe Scroll for free. The problem is that now you have serious problems functioning in melee without multiclassing, yet your spellcasting gets a serious punch in the kidneys too, leaving you with little to do in battle.
Cloistered cleric. You give up some of your armor proficiencies, most of your weapon proficiencies, one domain, and one spell of each level from your daily allotment. In exchange, you get better Knowledge skill checks, better saves vs. a limited set of spells, an expansion on Aid Another checks, and Scribe Scroll for free. The problem is that now you have serious problems functioning in melee without multiclassing, yet your spellcasting gets a serious punch in the kidneys too, leaving you with little to do in battle.
I think this archetype is meant more for NPCS.
After the FAQ the Synthesist is now a terrible archetype. Categorically worse than the normal summoner or the master summoner.
Where can I find the FAQ on that? a link would be great, please.
Abysmal archetypes:
The Celebrity Bard
The Cloistered Cleric
Shielded Fighter
Vow of Poverty Monk (maybe not an archetype, but damn does it suck)
Oath of Loyalty Paladin
Trapper Ranger
These aren't the only ones I think are bad, but these are the ones I find absolutely horrible. But go ahead, tell me how they're all NPC archetypes. Also, contrary to popular belief, the Geisha isn't that bad.
Abysmal archetypes:
The Celebrity Bard
The Cloistered Cleric
Shielded Fighter
Vow of Poverty Monk (maybe not an archetype, but damn does it suck)
Oath of Loyalty Paladin
Trapper RangerThese aren't the only ones I think are bad, but these are the ones I find absolutely horrible. But go ahead, tell me how they're all NPC archetypes. Also, contrary to popular belief, the Geisha isn't that bad.
Yeah, Geisha is good support / archer bard. Getting bonus to a performance (=2 skills via Versitale Performance is good). Tea Ceremony is situational, butlater very good as it can act as mass Inspire Heroics.
I like Ellington's list and like to add:
Savage Barbarian
Separatist Cleric (this archetype has only flaws compared to ideological cleric already seen as option in CRB's Domain Section. So it has to win worst archetype contest)
All Rogue archetypes that give up Trapfinding
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Synthesist Summoner (as of the current FAQ) - you lose 3/4 of a Summoner's action economy while almost impossibly managing to make the rule system even more complicated.
Celebrity Bard - you are the Demagogue Bard with the good parts cut out.
LinkAfter the FAQ the Synthesist is now a terrible archetype. Categorically worse than the normal summoner or the master summoner.Where can I find the FAQ on that? a link would be great, please.
thank you
Synthesist Summoner (as of the current FAQ) - you lose 3/4 of a Summoner's action economy while almost impossibly managing to make the rule system even more complicated.
Celebrity Bard - you are the Demagogue Bard with the good parts cut out.
The synthesist has become far too complicated. I precieve a lot of house ruling to keep players/dm's from having an anuerism.
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The synthesist has become far too complicated. I precieve a lot of house ruling to keep players/dm's from having an anuerism.Synthesist Summoner (as of the current FAQ) - you lose 3/4 of a Summoner's action economy while almost impossibly managing to make the rule system even more complicated.
Celebrity Bard - you are the Demagogue Bard with the good parts cut out.
I called "Summoner makes no sense" when they started throwing around arbitrary rules exceptions in a failed attempt to balance it. A full on effort needs to be taken to redo it looking at what it can do with what it is allowed to do and change those as necessary while at the same time removing rules exceptions.
I never thought the Summoner was over complicated. There were some things that needed to be clarified, and they were. No big deal.
As for sub-par archtypes: Dragon Shaman
I do not like this archtype. The only ability it has that is even close to draconic is the elemental damage you on bite attacks.
And since when did druids revere dragons?!
I do not this archtype.You accidentally your verb. ;)
See how much I don't like it? I make grammatical mistakes just talking about it!
Fixed. :)
You accidentally your verb. ;)
I don't that archetype either.
I called "Summoner makes no sense" when they started throwing around arbitrary rules exceptions in a failed attempt to balance it. A full on effort needs to be taken to redo it looking at what it can do with what it is allowed to do and change those as necessary while at the same time removing rules exceptions.The synthesist has become far too complicated. I precieve a lot of house ruling to keep players/dm's from having an anuerism.Synthesist Summoner (as of the current FAQ) - you lose 3/4 of a Summoner's action economy while almost impossibly managing to make the rule system even more complicated.
Celebrity Bard - you are the Demagogue Bard with the good parts cut out.
+1
I find the evangelist cleric very sub par, but wonderful for someone who would want to play a cleric in a group with another cleric. Otherwise, as the only divine caster, having to prep cure spells instead of other spells really cripples your ability to diversify. I honestly think it is one of the most boring archetypes I have ever seen.
Any mounted archetype.
Any bard archetype that gives up inspire courage.
I really don't like the Mysterious Stranger archetype for the Gunslinger. The idea behind it is simple enough, and one that many of us were clamoring for- make Grit based off of Charisma instead of Wisdom. However, instead of just sticking with this basic idea (and not much more) this archetype goes far beyond that idea. First of all, the Mysterious Stranger isn't compatible with any other archetype when it really should be. Second, and most importantly, it turns the class on it's head by tying not just grit to Charisma- but damage as well.
A normal Gunslinger get's to add Dexterity to damage after a few levels. A Mysterious Stranger cannot. He can however, add Charisma to damage by spending Grit. So if you want to do a lot of damage, you better have a high Charisma. As a result, you probably have a lower Dexterity than the normal Gunslinger.
The Mysterious Stranger seems to be giving up so much (less average damage, less accuracy, less initiative, a lot less AC, etc) all for the sake of having a high Charisma.
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Those two are awesome. The spirit ranger can always use Instant Enemy and the Dual-Curse Oracle has two excellent revelations in additions to their mystery revelations, as well as two additional revelation slots.Spirit Ranger?
Dual-Cursed Oracle?
So, the Animal Companion is worth replacing with a 9,000 gp Pearl of Power at 10th level?
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Those two are awesome. The spirit ranger can always use Instant Enemy and the Dual-Curse Oracle has two excellent revelations in additions to their mystery revelations, as well as two additional revelation slots.Spirit Ranger?
Dual-Cursed Oracle?So, the Animal Companion is worth replacing with a 9,000 gp Pearl of Power at 10th level?
At tenth level, that's two 9,000 gp Pearls of Power.
And without Boon Companion? Certainly.The ranger list is probably the worst spell list but being able to cast any spell spontaneously is not a bad ability. And the Spirit Ranger isn't the only ranger archetype that loses the Animal Companion.
Spirit Ranger?
Dual-Cursed Oracle?A Spirit Ranger gives up an animal companion for... an extra spell each day and the occasional Augury. Yeah.
"O spirits, great spirits, should I have given up an extra attacker and flanker for this power?"
"Signs point to no."
I disagree about the Spirit Ranger. At first I made the same assumption you have, but after rereading it found I was wrong. It's not just the extra spells, it is the fact you can cast any spell you know, and as a ranger that is your whole spell list. Also as you go up in levels your gain more extra spells. By 20th level you can cast 5 extra spells of any level you know per day.
Since the Ranger has a very limited list of animal companions, and without a feat is 3 levels lower than a druids makes this less painful to give up.
Ragechemist. Lose some good abilities for a small bonus with a huge disadvantage that gets even worse as you gain levels.
Some archetypes are just useless, but the ragechemist is crippling if you take it.
Ragechemist gets Mutagen bonus to Str and the Rage bonus.
Nothing says they replace each other.So that means +10 Str (+6 untyped and +4 alchemy bonus from mutagen).
So it is very nice. Sure, you have will save issues but I think +10 is worth it.
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Ragechemist. Lose some good abilities for a small bonus with a huge disadvantage that gets even worse as you gain levels.
Some archetypes are just useless, but the ragechemist is crippling if you take it.Ragechemist gets Mutagen bonus to Str and the Rage bonus.
Nothing says they replace each other.So that means +10 Str (+6 untyped and +4 alchemy bonus from mutagen).
So it is very nice. Sure, you have will save issues but I think +10 is worth it.
That would be okay, but I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.
I think all of the fighter archtypes except the mobile fighter have been pretty underwhealming.
I think all of the fighter archtypes except the mobile fighter have been pretty underwhealming.I guess you haven't seen the Dawnflower Dervish, yet.
It has the same problem as a lot of the other archtypes. When you give up armor training, you give up the ability to move in medium armor and heavy armors with no movement reduction. That is bad for the Dervish because all of your abilities center around movement. If I am going to be restricted to mithril breastplate or celestial armor, I'll play a barbarian or ranger.
Hm... I don't think the shielded fighter is honestly that bad.
I would add however:
Savage Barbarian
Breaker
Brutal Pugilist
Animal Speaker Bard
Demagouge Bard
Archivist
Detective
Ki Mystic Monk
Monk of the Healing Hands
Crossbowman fighter
Archer fighter
Savage Warrior
Roughrider
Shapeshifter Ranger
Infiltrator Ranger
Crossblooded Sorcerer
Hm... I don't think the shielded fighter is honestly that bad.
I would add however:
Savage Barbarian
Breaker
Brutal Pugilist
Animal Speaker Bard
Demagouge Bard
Archivist
Detective
Ki Mystic Monk
Monk of the Healing Hands
Crossbowman fighter
Archer fighter
Savage Warrior
Roughrider
Shapeshifter Ranger
Infiltrator Ranger
Crossblooded Sorcerer
What is so bad about infiltrator you can get lunge for ten minutes a level at level 3.
That list just confuses me.
Hm... I don't think the shielded fighter is honestly that bad.
I didn't look at all of the archtypes too closely. I mostly just saw a pattern of giving up armor training for an insignificant boost to offense.
The Archer Fighter is good mostly because you will be dex heavy and wanting to get celestial armor anyway.
One of the huge draws of fighters for me is that you can wear full plate with no movement penalties. Too many of the fighter archtypes give this up.
What is so bad about infiltrator you can get lunge for ten minutes a level at level 3.
Lunge for 10 minutes at a time for 3 times a day or a +2 to initiative, perception and survival checks? All the choices offered by the adaptation don't grow, you can only have one active at a time, the choice is permanent, and the benefits aren't. Also it doesn't actually help you inflitrate anything -- you don't look any different than you started at and it makes no sense to me that an 'adaptation' is less than permanent in duration, especially when you consider just how weak the abilities offered are (and the fact you have to have the creature chosen as your favored enemy too). All in all a +2 to natural armor for 200 minutes a day (at most) is simply lackluster to me, as is claws, low-light vision, and even lunge.
Hm... I don't think the shielded fighter is honestly that bad.
I didn't look at all of the archtypes too closely. I mostly just saw a pattern of giving up armor training for an insignificant boost to offense.
The Archer Fighter is good mostly because you will be dex heavy and wanting to get celestial armor anyway.
One of the huge draws of fighters for me is that you can wear full plate with no movement penalties. Too many of the fighter archtypes give this up.
Shielded fighter works best under the following circumstances:
Dwarf, Threatening Defender trait, using a madu. With those in place you can get at 8th level a +5 dodge bonus to your AC for a -1 penalty on your attack rolls. If you are looking for a shield fighting character with significant touch AC Shielded fighter gives you the means of having it. At 12th level it's a -2 for +7, 16th is a -3 for +9 and at 20th its a -4 for a +11 to AC. You can always share this bonus with an adjacent ally with a swift action or all adjacent allies can have half of the bonus for the same swift action. For AC boosting it's not a bad option.
Also the higher level abilities are nice -- if much too late game. Shield buffet is nice once you hit level 13 since it becomes a swift action -- granting your enemy a -2 to attack and AC right before you full attack is a very nice use of a swift action for a fighter (especially since you have so little use for swift actions).