So in Ultimate Combat there is the Boar Style feat:
Boar Style (Combat, Style)
Your sharp teeth and nails rip your foes open.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Intimidate 3 ranks.
Benefit: You can deal bludgeoning damage or slashing damage with your unarmed strikes—changing damage type is a free action. While using this style, once per round when you hit a single foe with two or more unarmed
strikes, you can tear flesh. When you do, you deal 2d6 bleed damage with the attack.Now, I do ascribe to a manifest destiny of awesomness, particularly for Monks, but this seems a bit crazy.
True, you have to hit twice, and true, bleed damage doesn't stack, and true, not everything is vulnerable to bleed.
However if you're playing in a heavily humanoid type of game, this Monk is going to literally be ripping new holes in people. 2d6 damage per round after the fact is quite a bit starting at 3rd level.
My DPR kung-fu can't work out how to calculate this, is there someone who can sort out how this stacks with more conventional attacks?
Yeah, 2d6 seems like quite a lot. 1d6 seems more appropriate. Though to be fair, a monk, in general, is particularly suited to humanoid heavy campaigns, especially for combat maneuvers.
I agree -- 2d6 bleed sounds a bit crazy. Compare it to Rending Claws (+1d6 damage when you hit with two claws), for instance.
First the rogue, now the monk... are they "fixing" classes left, right, and center here?
I thought the Monk class had damage issues (between MAD, etc). This might make a low Strength Monk (read: Dex or Wis focused Monk) valid, would it not?
Wait, does it like mean that people will be afraid of Monks now? Srsly? That's throwing upside down a 11-year old paradigm, PAIZO WHAT HAVE YOU DONE *proceeds to furiously dig a foxhole*
No use, Gorbacz. They are giving all monks a burrowing speed next :)
First the rogue, now the monk... are they "fixing" classes left, right, and center here?
I thought the Monk class had damage issues (between MAD, etc). This might make a low Strength Monk (read: Dex or Wis focused Monk) valid, would it not?
well, maybe. It also makes a STR monk even more valid.
well, maybe. It also makes a STR monk even more valid.
Heh, not sure if I could call that a complaint either. DPR isn't a major issue with Monks from what I recall.
Also..
Errata has removed the brass knuckles from the Monk, so I'd be inclined to let them have something decent.
*Edit* Or not.. thought the recent errata removed the unarmed damage part, but it changed something else.
Also..
Errata has removed the brass knuckles from the Monk, so I'd be inclined to let them have something decent.
Whoseawhat now? When/Where was this?
Yeah, I double checked that one myself, sorry. It removed "unarmed strike" from the benefit, not from the note on monk's damage.
Not sure what precipitated the change though.
*snaps finger* It is now a light weapon, so doesn't need unarmed verbiage.
well, maybe. It also makes a STR monk even more valid.Heh, not sure if I could call that a complaint either. DPR isn't a major issue with Monks from what I recall.
Also..
Errata has removed the brass knuckles from the Monk, so I'd be inclined to let them have something decent.
Well, they weren't taken away. They were just changed so that their damage was not unarmed damage. All in all it looks like monks will do alright, not from the equipment they choose, but from they feats and archetypes they pick. This seems like the right way to go.
Yeah, I double checked that one myself, sorry. It removed "unarmed strike" from the benefit, not from the note on monk's damage.
Not sure what precipitated the change though.
*snaps finger* It is now a light weapon, so doesn't need unarmed verbiage.
There was confusion as to why one fist-style weapon did unarmed damage, and others did not. SKR saw it and clarified that if you have a weapon you are not unarmed, and therefore do not do unarmed damage. Monks need to look for other ways to bypass DR and use their unarmed damage dice. Or they just need to keep some special monk weapons for when that is an issue.
The APG still has the words: "Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them."
Or is this being updated as well? I didn't see an APG errata out yet (the official PRD isn't updated yet, although that can be slower in updating than the d20pfsrd sometimes).
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The APG still has the words: "Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them."
Or is this being updated as well? I didn't see an APG errata out yet (the official PRD isn't updated yet, although that can be slower in updating than the d20pfsrd sometimes).
Sean K Reynolds made a serious brain fart with newest Adventurer's Armory errata (really, is that book cursed or what) by writing an entirely NEW wording of brass knuckles to address some illusionary problems apparently only he had (eg "does flaming brass knuckles do 1d6 fire damage?"). And he holds that the new AA wording throws the "use unarmed damage" part away.
Curiously, the APG text wasn't errated to keep in sync, so we have now once again two different wordings of one item. I hope somebody knocks SKR out and reverses his changes, because it makes baby monks cry.
Really, can somebody at Paizo take rules design away from Sean? Please? Pretty please? I'm very happy with his fluff writing, it's a-ok, but every time he writes something about rules I get my spider-sense tingling.
The APG still has the words: "Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them."
Or is this being updated as well? I didn't see an APG errata out yet (the official PRD isn't updated yet, although that can be slower in updating than the d20pfsrd sometimes).
Sean K Reynolds made a serious brain fart with newest Adventurer's Armory errata (really, is that book cursed or what) by writing an entirely NEW wording of brass knuckles to address some illusionary problems apparently only he had (eg "does flaming brass knuckles do 1d6 fire damage?"). And he holds that the new AA wording throws the "use unarmed damage" part away.
Curiously, the APG text wasn't errated to keep in sync, so we have now once again two different wordings of one item. I hope somebody knocks SKR out and reverses his changes, because it makes baby monks cry.
Really, can somebody at Paizo take rules design away from Sean? Please? Pretty please? I'm very happy with his fluff writing, it's a-ok, but every time he writes something about rules I get my spider-sense tingling.
I disagree. First of all, lets qualify this with some understanding that mostly this is a DR issue, and not everything has DR at high levels, just a fair amount of usual suspects (outsiders mostly).
Secondly, when monks, who are known for not being reliant on gear, need to strap a piece of metal to there fists just to stay competitive, then there is something very wrong with the system itself. I know you agree that the system was broke. Brass knuckles didn't fix it. They were at best a patch. You don't live with a patch forever. Eventually you heal and throw the patch away. Here's hoping that UC does that healing.
And Rending claws is horrible.
No arguments here; Two-Weapon Rend is more reasonable, but it's not generally available until level 11.
At any rate, I think there should at least be a token effort made to make thematically similar feats roughly equivalent in terms of effectiveness.
Archers, as always, get another boost. They can now grab a feat called Cluster Shot which lets you add the damage from multiple attacks together before applying DR.
Which is why Zen Archers get really scary. :) Same with Sohei archtype, especially since they can flurry with bows or even crossbows (!), and ki-strike with them.
Side note, did anyone else read the title of this thread and think 'They put Silver Surfer stuff in UC?'?
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Archers, as always, get another boost. They can now grab a feat called Cluster Shot which lets you add the damage from multiple attacks together before applying DR.Which is why Zen Archers get really scary. :) Same with Sohei archtype, especially since they can flurry with bows or even crossbows (!), and ki-strike with them.
Side note, did anyone else read the title of this thread and think 'They put Silver Surfer stuff in UC?'?
Given that Silver Surfer plays Pathfinder, I wouldn't be surprised :)
2d6 points of bleed is okay at 3rd level. A ninja or alchemist of that level will deal 2d6 extra which each attack.
And Rending claws is horrible.
But bleed damage hits every round till fixed, sheak attack/bombs hit once.
So switch to Boar style, cause bleed damage, then switch to a better style (more damage or AC or effect) and every turn enemy gets hurt more (unless they waste round doing Heal skill/cure spell).Repeat with next foe.
2d6 points of bleed is okay at 3rd level. A ninja or alchemist of that level will deal 2d6 extra which each attack.
And Rending claws is horrible.But bleed damage hits every round till fixed, sheak attack/bombs hit once.
So switch to Boar style, cause bleed damage, then switch to a better style (more damage or AC or effect) and every turn enemy gets hurt more (unless they waste round doing Heal skill/cure spell).Repeat with next foe.
I suspect the elf trait that lets them stabilize with a touch is going to be very popular, since it stops bleeding.
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2d6 points of bleed is okay at 3rd level. A ninja or alchemist of that level will deal 2d6 extra which each attack.
And Rending claws is horrible.But bleed damage hits every round till fixed, sheak attack/bombs hit once.
So switch to Boar style, cause bleed damage, then switch to a better style (more damage or AC or effect) and every turn enemy gets hurt more (unless they waste round doing Heal skill/cure spell).Repeat with next foe.
How long do you expect the combat to last?
I think it's a copy and paste error.
The wounds you inflict with your unarmed strikes bleed,
giving you renewed vigor.
The renewed vigor part doesn't really make sense, and Boar Shred, the 3rd feat in the chain of 3, does 1d6 bleed, which is dwarfed by the first feat in the chain's 2d6.
So something ain't right.
Isn't it 5th level? you need three ranks in intimidate to take it, you have 2 ranks when you hit level 3, you will then have 3 but it's to late.
That would be like taking a prestige class at level six because the prestige class would give you the last BAB you need to qualify.
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Isn't it 5th level? you need three ranks in intimidate to take it, you have 2 ranks when you hit level 3, you will then have 3 but it's to late.
That would be like taking a prestige class at level six because the prestige class would give you the last BAB you need to qualify.
no, its ok to take feats the same level you meet the pre reqs. like taking weapon focus at 1st level with a fighter
same as its ok to take a feat needed to pick a class the same level you take the class.
feats and classes differ like that
Isn't it 5th level? you need three ranks in intimidate to take it, you have 2 ranks when you hit level 3, you will then have 3 but it's to late.
That would be like taking a prestige class at level six because the prestige class would give you the last BAB you need to qualify.
Erm, not quite right there. You level up, then select your feats.
With PrCs, you choose that first (since that's the class you're leveling up in!), and then apply the BAB upgrade if it has one.
Well, two different answers. I sense a derailing in progress.
Well it would be nice to know in what order you level up, otherwise you have debates over what you qualify for.
Scratch that. It's quite simple.
Skills are based off of class. Classes give you class skills, as well as the skill points, so this logically is the case.
Feats are based off of HD.
When you level up, you choose your class that you'll level up in. This includes assigning skill points.
After you've selected the class, you choose feats.
If this was not the case, then it would mean that a Fighter at level 1 couldn't take Weapon Focus as NameViolation mentioned. This is a direct consequence of choosing your feat before your class, and it is absurd, so it must not be the case.
Derailing done. edit: Well, disregard that. NameViolation quoted the PRD rather than logic'd it through
I think the bleed damage mentioned in Boar Style is meant to be extra damage, not bleed damage. Which is weird, since the only way to do this at level three is to be a monk with Flurry of Blows, but it doesn't have monk levels as an optional prerequisite.
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Well it would be nice to know in what order you level up, otherwise you have debates over what you qualify for.
prd:
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats.
guess class level comes before feat selection. huh. that kinda sucks.
Well it would be nice to know in what order you level up, otherwise you have debates over what you qualify for.prd:
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats.
guess class level comes before feat selection. huh. that kinda sucks.
Skills are also done the same time as feats, so do you have the ranks before the feats? it seems if they are done in unison you wouldn't qualify. As far as level one goes BAB comes before feats, skills apparently don't.
I admit I'm no math whiz, but:
A CR3 creature has an average AC of 15 and 30 hit points (Bestiary, p291).
A 3rd level monk has a flurry attack of +1/+1. Add a nominal +3 strength bonus, and you reach +4/+4. To hit an AC of 15, therefore, the monk player would need to roll an 11+. That's a 50% chance to hit, or a 25% chance for both attacks to land. Average damage from those two attacks combined is 13 (presuming a medium sized monk).
Then you deal bleed damage, which averages out at 6 & 2/3.
Our monk has just done (roughly) 20 damage in a single turn--but only does that once in any four combat rounds. And likely not on the first round as he can't flurry while charging.
So there are three different scenarios for our monk in any given round:
- Hit with 0 attacks, do 0 damage (25%).
- Hit with 1 attack, do 6.5 damage (50%).
- Hit with 2 attacks, do 19 & 2/3 damage (25%).
Which comes to a weighted average of 8 & 1/6 damage. Not quite so gamebreaking. Against higher CR creatures the chance to hit will be even less and the damage will be of less consequence. So it looks like Boar Style is an 'all or nothing' sort of martial art--which fits with its background as an orc-originated fighting style. On some turns it will deal full damage and will devastate a foe, but on most turns it won't.
Skills are also done the same time as feats, so do you have the ranks before the feats? it seems if they are done in unison you wouldn't qualify. As far as level one goes BAB comes before feats, skills apparently don't.Well it would be nice to know in what order you level up, otherwise you have debates over what you qualify for.prd:
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats.
guess class level comes before feat selection. huh. that kinda sucks.
Skills come before points in that sentence, and however flimsy an argument that is, it's enough for me to know that the devs wanted it that way.