I am a playing a halfling witch that has banded together with several other free halflings in order to subdue the greenbelt in the adventure Kingmaker. Below are some of the things he might think or have performed:
I treat all races other than halflings in a kind manner because I know eventually they will all be halflings due to my forced reincarnation hex at 18th level.
I am kind and friendly and don't steal.
I have performed human sacrifice in order to ensure that the elves left our forest, and that an evil demon was not summoned. Bummer, less future halflings.
Anyone in the adventuring group, I would gladly help and risk death for each of them.
I try and smooth things over when others in the group are too boisterous for their own good.
(Basically we are creating a free state for all halflings to have sanctuary, and taking our former imprisonment out on our past captors)
Lawful Evil.
I say.. Lawful Neutral.
You play by the rules, but you're willing to do both good and evil acts if that's what it takes for your goal to be completed.
Of course, alignment is incredibly subjective and hard to put a letter to. While the intentions of a character, not the actions themselves, should be the focus on such questions, and you seem to have good intentions, some acts (such as human sacrifice) are so inherently evil, a "good" person would sooner let the consequences of NOT taking action before they would actually commit such a deed, and deal with those. In the situation you mentioned, I see a LG character allowing the demon to be summoned and trying to kill it.
Of course, that's just me. I can see arguments in most directions, but that's generally how it is with alignment.
Amidst the cries of "generic evil", I'm going to have to agree with Vendis on this and suggest Lawful Neutral or (True) Neutral. The difference being that if your halfling avoids stealing and lying out of a personal code, or would be disciplined and methodical in his approach, he's probably Lawful Neutral. If he doesn't steal but doesn't care about especially adhering to discipline or law, then he's probably Neutral, of the sort who puts his group and kingdom first with less interest in specific ethics or morals. Subject to DM/GM interpretation, of course.
Evil to the core. Basically, you have a character who has good social skills and is adept at hiding his true nature from others, so that most who encounter him would never suspect the darkness that lies inside. The character probably also has convinced himself that he is a "good guy", and will justify to himself any action he takes, no matter how dark or extreme.
Your character's willingness to conduct human sacrifice and to use forced reincarnation on subjects other than enemies (at least that's what it sounds like) are lines he can't cross without being evil. Being a nice guy most of the time and not stealing don't even begin to make up for it.
In short, he's one of those guys that television crews will be interviewing the neighbors of after it is suddenly discovered that he is a serial killer, and they'll be talking about what a nice, quiet little guy he was, with impeccable manners and a seemingly gentle nature.
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Lawful evil.
Your character thinks he is doing what is best for everyone, but plans to do it in a way that completely disregards their individual freedoms. Basically, like Stalin, only replace "communism" with "halflings".
There is no question you should be lawful there is a debate over neutral or evil. In my opinion I would say your evil. You remind me of Hitler a little. You want a "cleansed" world. If you wanted to be neutral you would have to lean towards evil. You are friendly to other races, but you plan to make them Halflings. Be evil, your a dictator.
Remembering that halflings are basically a slave race in Golarion, does that make a difference regarding the outlook?
Remembering that halflings are basically a slave race in Golarion, does that make a difference regarding the outlook?
No.
Remembering that halflings are basically a slave race in Golarion, does that make a difference regarding the outlook?
To the exact same extent that being abused as a child justifies abusing others as an adult.
It makes the character more tragic and possibly a little sympathetic, and makes his actions more understandable, but in the end doesn't change anything.
I have a character alignment question also, a character that is so wounded by shame and guilt and doesn't care about any body but himself and actively seeks for death out of guilt, what alignment would that be neutral evil?he has forgotten how to love! and was lawful good at one point.
I have a character alignment question also, a character that is so wounded by shame and guilt and doesn't care about any body but himself and actively seeks for death out of guilt, what alignment would that be neutral evil?he has forgotten how to love! and was lawful good at one point.
I'd be tempted to say CN. If he's not actively seeking out hurting others for his own purposes, I wouldn't call self-interest evil. The death wish seems almost irrelevant. You could say someone who is depressed has trouble "loving" and thinking about other people besides themselves, but it doesn't make their alignment "E".
I have a character alignment question also, a character that is so wounded by shame and guilt and doesn't care about any body but himself and actively seeks for death out of guilt, what alignment would that be neutral evil?he has forgotten how to love! and was lawful good at one point.I'd be tempted to say CN. If he's not actively seeking out hurting others for his own purposes, I wouldn't call self-interest evil. The death wish seems almost irrelevant. You could say someone who is depressed has trouble "loving" and thinking about other people besides themselves, but it doesn't make their alignment "E".
interesting suggestion after looking at the alignment status online i have 2 i think apply
1.A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusions that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn't have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.
Some neutral evil villains hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most often, such villains are devoted to evil deities or secret societies.
Neutral evil represents pure evil without honor and without variation.
2. A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn't strive to protect others' freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those others suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as he is to cross it.
Chaotic neutral represents freedom from both society's restrictions and a do-gooder's zeal.
Your character reminds me of Magneto and Dr. Doom, both of whom are villains.
Both of whom flirt with Neutral or even Good on occasion, but those are usually temporary shifts of alignment rather than permanent residence.
Lawful Evil. I mean, how could you be anything else? You want to forcibly turn everyone into halflings. Oh and commit human sacrifice to purge the forest of Elves.
Were you confused as to your evilness or lawfulness?
I'll take the kleptomaniac pacifist over there cheery little halfling who would just as likely sacrifice you for his master plan as share tea with you.
I am a playing a halfling witch that has banded together with several other free halflings in order to subdue the greenbelt in the adventure Kingmaker. Below are some of the things he might think or have performed:
I treat all races other than halflings in a kind manner because I know eventually they will all be halflings due to my forced reincarnation hex at 18th level.
I am kind and friendly and don't steal.
"Friendly" is not a moral, it's an attitude. There are evil people who can be extremely amicable. :) You need to provide more examples of what it means for your character to be kind and to whom he is kind--and why is he kind? It sounds like from your first paragraph he is doing it out of a loyalty to his race, not out of simple compassion or altruism (see PRD definition of "good" below).
Not stealing can mean a lot of different things depending on motivation and situation. Is it a matter of not stealing because it's against the law, or not stealing because he doesn't need to, or not stealing because it would harm the economy, or not stealing because it might make a person impoverished and/or otherwise harmed?
I have performed human sacrifice in order to ensure that the elves left our forest, and that an evil demon was not summoned. Bummer, less future halflings.
Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings.
I don't know the full story of the human sacrifice, but if your character's performance of human sacrifice was done of his own free will, without trying to find a way to save the human, and without regret, I would call that an evil ACT. If it's something he'd definitely do again, and would be willing generally speaking to sacrifice a sentient being for the "greater good"--that's not actually good, per how "good" is described in the rules of the game. (The road to hell is paved...) Because it shows a DISrespect for life and its preservation, and certainly lacks concern for the dignity of sentient beings.
If it is was a singular, unusual event where the halfling was forced to make that decision under duress... it might still be an evil act depending on the particulars, but may not cause an alignment shift.
You're also not clear on why the elves had to leave the forest. Were they hunting and enslaving halflings or summoning the demon or otherwise being a threat, or did your PC just not want to share?
Anyone in the adventuring group, I would gladly help and risk death for each of them.
That shows you are willing to act out of personal loyalty. This is common amongst neutrally aligned characters. If you would gladly help and risk death for a complete stranger, even one not of your own race, you're good (again "altruism" and "respect for life" and "concern for the dignity of all sentients").
I try and smooth things over when others in the group are too boisterous for their own good.
So you're a keeper of order.
(Basically we are creating a free state for all halflings to have sanctuary, and taking our former imprisonment out on our past captors)
So there is a vengeance factor here as well.
Generally speaking, it sounds like your character is dedicating to preserving his society and its tradition and tries to keep order. It sounds like he is duty driven, and justifies his actions by how it relates to preserving his society and its structures.
I would say a Lawful alignment most definitely.
Given he seems willing to sacrifice what I presume is an innocent sentient for his own benefit, and is driven by vengeance rather than justice, I would be inclined to say Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil.
Re-read the descriptions and discuss them with your GM if you still are uncertain.
Lawful Neutral: A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government.Lawful neutral means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot.
Lawful Evil: A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.
This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.
Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.
Lawful evil represents methodical, intentional, and organized evil.
Halflings are only a slave race in Cheliax if memory serves.
Original Question's Answer: Lawful Evil. Enjoy it, make the most of it, as Kingmaker is the only campaign that doesn't care. (The GM may stat up paladins, elven resistance movements and more to shake things up for you.)
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Halflings are only a slave race in Cheliax if memory serves.
It's actually pretty widespread, just about anywhere slavery is going on. Halflings of Golarion mentions some of the largest markets for them IIRC, and also has a picture of halfling slaves doing work in Osirion. Or maybe they were actually free laborers. It's hard to tell in Osirion. ;)
Cheliax probably treats them crappier than most anywhere else though...
But yeah, Lawful Evil. Some LN beings might be able to get away with "assimilation plots" involving the unwilling(LG would absolutely require they be willing), but it would really require a certain alien Blue and Orange morality way of thinking that renders said being incapable of realizing that these people may not want to be changed into something else. Maybe the halfling guy has deluded himself into not thinking it, but he likely had to lie to himself to get there, IMO and all that.
That and the human(oid) sacrifices...
Set had a good-aligned character that worked with a similar-themed M.O., but it worked because all of the subjects involved were willing. Also, no human(oid) sacrifices.
I think a lot of people are forgetting the halfling's motivation: he wants to free his enslaved brethren and create a sanctuary for them. He didn't say he wanted to rule them or anything. His actions stems from his desire to allow his kind a second chance, to get them out of slavery. He is already free but chose to chance that to save his race. He's risking his life to do it. That is very good.
Now, he is NOT good because of his uncaring nature in who gets hurts in the process. But to me, that's a close enough line that he falls on Neutral, not Evil.
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if he wanted to free his people, then turning the asmodai into halflings and the queen of cheliax as well, then that would be a more noteworthy goal and everybody in taldor and andoran would be siting in bars, lifting up steins and toasting the halfling.
Now that most good folk could likely get behind. And find damn hilarious as well.
I think a lot of people are forgetting the halfling's motivation: he wants to free his enslaved brethren and create a sanctuary for them. He didn't say he wanted to rule them or anything. His actions stems from his desire to allow his kind a second chance, to get them out of slavery. He is already free but chose to chance that to save his race. He's risking his life to do it. That is very good.
Now, he is NOT good because of his uncaring nature in who gets hurts in the process. But to me, that's a close enough line that he falls on Neutral, not Evil.
he is an ends justify the means thinking, thats an evil way of thinking.
if he wanted to free his people, then turning the asmodai into halflings and the queen of cheliax as well, then that would be a more noteworthy goal and everybody in taldor and andoran would be siting in bars, lifting up steins and toasting the halfling.
but no, he's not into that....
I agree. But I could just as easily say, "He's willing to risk death to save his party, that's a good way of thinking." You're oversimplifying it - it's a complex character (one my DM would love; he thinks my paladin is "flat" because I play him LG to the core).
I think LE is plenty worthy of his alignment. I just think LN describes him better.
A plan to forcibly transform everyone else in revenge is pretty solidly evil.
He's doing lots of evil things. No one is saying anything against that. He's also doing lots of good things. I don't know why people think one evil act cancels out a lot of good acts. Usually justified by "he's doing good now so he can be more evil later," but that's an assumption. Maybe he genuinely thinks that halfling is the only way to live, so he's doing it for their benefit. Maybe he thinks that if everyone was the same race, there would be less wars and oppression. Maybe he really just wants to make others feel the pain he has felt. There are so many reasons why an act might take place.
At that point, it's subjective, like I said above. I see the LE alignment in him, quite a bit. But I see more LN.
Good intentions don't make his evil actions good.
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I have performed human sacrifice in order to ensure that the elves left our forest, and that an evil demon was not summoned. Bummer, less future halflings.
This screams EVIL!!!
I am assuming that those poor souls are "not willing" when it comes to being sacrificed.
While it may have helped to stop an evil demon from being summon... its like saying "I am going to wipe out this town of its people, that way there won't ever be any case of murder, stealing or any other crimes EVER as they are all DEAD. I am saving their souls!"...
The actions are evil, even if they are used to stop another evil.
I treat all races other than halflings in a kind manner because I know eventually they will all be halflings due to my forced reincarnation hex at 18th level.
I am kind and friendly and don't steal.
Anyone in the adventuring group, I would gladly help and risk death for each of them.
I try and smooth things over when others in the group are too boisterous for their own good.
(Basically we are creating a free state for all halflings to have sanctuary, and taking our former imprisonment out on our past captors)
All this suggests you are Lawful. Why? cos you seems to have a code of conduct that you abide to, one that flavors halflings... or those that will become halflings...
The forced reincarnation hex is another thing that screams evil. (I do notice that since reincarnation has a percentage chance... you are going to take a LONG time turn even a bunch of people into halflings... lol.)
Good intentions don't make his evil actions good.
Robin Hood is the epitome of CG, right? Now what about the fact that the villagers he is stealing for are being even more oppressed and beaten for his crimes, as the king is trying to draw him out and force him to surrender. Robin is completely aware of this, but he sticks to his path, because -he- believes it to be the best way.
I could argue that his actions are leading to bad things, so it's an evil act, even though his entire intent is to help an oppressed people.
If you can tell me an act that can't be shown in a different light that its outward appearance, I'll concede, but alignment is simply too subjective.
I agree that he does evil things, possibly for reasons that are also evil. But he does just as many good things, possibly for reasons that are also good. Why do you discount that entirely? People talk about a villain who has a "soft spot for children" and won't harm them - that's a good act, even if it isn't enough to make him good aligned. The difference is that the halfling in question is, in my opinion, in the middle - making him neutral.
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The difference is that the halfling in question is, in my opinion, in the middle - making him neutral.
Big Question: Is murder ok?
1. Law . the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law.
5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.
The OP's character is willing or even "happy" when it comes to taking lives from people, people who are unwilling to die.
This is not a case of the hero who "for the greater good" takes the lives of some to saves thousands more. Who will for the rest of this life regard it and have nightmares over it.
Nor is his character killing say... his slaver or someone who has oppressed him, his race or family/friends.
The OP's character "does not regard" it!
He is killing, murdering, people who did nothing to him for his own ends!
How is that justifiable?
Big Question: Is murder ok?
Murder is not okay. Evil act. We all get it.
The OP's character is willing or even "happy" when it comes to taking lives from people, people who are unwilling to die.
Happy? When did he say that the halfling was happy? He did was he deemed necessarily and shrugged his shoulders at having to do it. That is more neutral than anything I can think of. If he had to commit a perfect opposite of human sacrifice (birthing a baby popped into my head, but I mean something more along the lines of sacrificing his own life to save others) for the end he desired, he would have done it. He stated he was willing to risk death to save his party, and he's doing that and risking his freedom to save his brethren.
The OP's character "does not regard" it!
He is killing, murdering, people who did nothing to him for his own ends!
In the real world, I would label this guy evil to the core and probably get to work on my own to stop him. But we're talking about a world where traveling to the next town might mean you're going to be attacked by bandits and monsters and the only way to live is to kill them before they kill you. Killing is much more commonplace in fantasy settings than in our modern times, and the religious system doesn't tie to our world very good: most religions in today's world dominates morality and probably 90% of their tenants are similar (don't lie, don't murder, don't steal, etc. etc.) and usually the gods worshiped are "good". However, in most fantasy settings, you have just as much evil gods as you do good as you do neutral.
He is seeking sanctuary for halflings (good) and to turn all other races into halflings (evil). Those are his true end goals. He's not purely seeking a good or evil act, so this business about murdering people for his own ends, that ties directly to a "greater good" scenario, which is morally ambiguous and can be argued until trumpets sound and kingdom come.
Like I said, I accept the LE alignment for him, and if I was at the table or even playing him, I would just shrug and nod. But the OP opened up a debate on it, and so I'm just giving my opinion: more LN than LE, but only if just barely.
I might clarify a couple things.
Firstly, I fully well know many of my actions within the game are very evil. That being said, I love getting input to see what others think regarding my particular situation. I thought I was something along the lines of either neutral, or neutral evil, or perhaps lawful neutral, but I am fine with lawful evil too!
So regarding my little halfling witch's desire to turn everyone into halflings, this is not as bad as I would think many are suggesting. In the mind of my character, he is simply planning on subjecting everyone else that is not a halfling into someone that is a halfling and making them walk a mile in a halflings shoes. It is not motivated out of revenge, but simple justice. You try to put a halfling into slavery, I will make sure you pay the price as is accorded me by law of the Hin nation.
Regarding slaying the people at the ritual, well that is flat out evil. The viewpoint would be something along the lines of, we could stop the druids from doing their sacrafice, but then there are two alternatives, either the demon is summoned or we have a new enemy with the druids and elves. Both of which we were currently equipped to deal with. It was a more utilitarian choice but didn't hurt that it was only humans being sacrificed. Again back to the all other races that would enslave halflings would be considered slaves at best, and animals at worst.
I have found that this character is most fun to play because while still having a solid moral compass, it is most definitely pointed in a direction other than good.
Interestingly enough, I'm having similar problems with a player and long-time friend who has a LN character but has performed at least one truly horrendous evil action by my reckoning and has a viewpoint that is only borderline LN, or even Lawful. I'm trying to work it out with her, and I've got a handle on something homebrewed for alignment that shows promise.
Good intentions don't make his evil actions good.Robin Hood is the epitome of CG, right? Now what about the fact that the villagers he is stealing for are being even more oppressed and beaten for his crimes, as the king is trying to draw him out and force him to surrender. Robin is completely aware of this, but he sticks to his path, because -he- believes it to be the best way.
I could argue that his actions are leading to bad things, so it's an evil act, even though his entire intent is to help an oppressed people.
If you can tell me an act that can't be shown in a different light that its outward appearance, I'll concede, but alignment is simply too subjective.
I agree that he does evil things, possibly for reasons that are also evil. But he does just as many good things, possibly for reasons that are also good. Why do you discount that entirely? People talk about a villain who has a "soft spot for children" and won't harm them - that's a good act, even if it isn't enough to make him good aligned. The difference is that the halfling in question is, in my opinion, in the middle - making him neutral.
The popular Robin Hood doesn't do evil things. Robbery is morally ambiguous but is supposedly done to provide for those whom the rich are themselves robbing with taxes and other legal means. Is robbing a robber robbing if the robbed money is returned to the robbed? (Say 5 times fast) That is a far cry from human sacrifice to stop demon summoning and a forced reincarnation campaign to turn the world into halflings. This guy is Halfling Hitler. I mean, really. There is no other way to describe it. Are Clerics of Asmodeus good because they hunt down and kill demon worshipers? No, they still worship devils.
Evil actions done for the common good can make a person neutral. Performing evil actions to protect the stage for the coming purging of all other races is evil.
Maybe he genuinely thinks that halfling is the only way to live, so he's doing it for their benefit. Maybe he thinks that if everyone was the same race, there would be less wars and oppression. Maybe he really just wants to make others feel the pain he has felt.
So regarding my little halfling witch's desire to turn everyone into halflings, this is not as bad as I would think many are suggesting. In the mind of my character, he is simply planning on subjecting everyone else that is not a halfling into someone that is a halfling and making them walk a mile in a halflings shoes. It is not motivated out of revenge, but simple justice. You try to put a halfling into slavery, I will make sure you pay the price as is accorded me by law of the Hin nation.
He condemns others not according to
their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or
social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.
This reluctance comes partly from his nature and
partly because he depends on order to protect himself
from those who oppose him on moral grounds.
Emphasis Mine. The forced reincarnation plan is Lawful Evil. Rationalizing it by claiming justice is even more Lawful Evil.
Judgement by race instead of individual actions is the clincher. Inflicting "Horrible Painful Death(tm)" on a regular basis is just the icing.
Based on the clarifications from the OP, I'm now more inclined to say LE over LN, although it is still a close call for me.
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Interestingly enough, I'm having similar problems with a player and long-time friend who has a LN character but has performed at least one truly horrendous evil action by my reckoning and has a viewpoint that is only borderline LN, or even Lawful. I'm trying to work it out with her, and I've got a handle on something homebrewed for alignment that shows promise.
Because I always fail my Will saves on these things....details? :)
From everything you've said, yeah, this little guy is LE. I mean, you love and respect everyone, because you're planning on turning 'em (forcibly and against their will) into Halflings. It just doesn't get any more Evil than that.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I agree with Lawful Evil. There is nothing wrong with playing that if it's not messing up everyone else's fun.
A quick rule of thumb is that if you have to justify why your actions aren't evil, they probably are.
Lawful Evil is probably the best evil alignment for group play as you can be fiercely loyal to your party but utterly ruthless to "others."
It's actually a very interesting story with your character being a freed slave who wants to create an empire of freedom (for halflings only) at swordpoint.
If you were trying to turn everyone into gnomes, well, that would clearly be screamingly evil.
Halflings though? That sounds purely delightful. Just imagine, you would always have an excellent supply of quality food, tea and pipeweed.
Anyone who doesn't want to be transformed into a halfling is clearly too stupid to know better. Once they are transformed and aren't a stupid race anymore, they will thank you.
OK, seriously:
It sounds like your character means well and regrets the few times he's hurt others. He's certainly misguided, and there is no way he's a paladin, but evil is a stretch as well.
I would go neutral. It's the safe bet. I'm really hating alignment more and more these days though! The cry that "you are not playing your alignment" makes me want to puke. Play your character, not your alignment! There are more than 9 moral codes.
Think of it this way.. remove halfling and insert Cyberman. Does that change the picture a bit?
Of course!!! Cybermen can't grow decent pipeweed! Guaranteed the cookies aren't going to have that homemade taste either! Sounds like a nightmare.
Now if only some paladin-like hero could come along and turn all those Cybermen into halflings. Then the gardens would be tended properly again.
(my first 3 lines of my original post are very, very tongue in cheek, I guess that didn't come across clearly. Hopefully this response makes it more clear the giggle I was after.)
It sounds like your character means well and regrets the few times he's hurt others. He's certainly misguided, and there is no way he's a paladin, but evil is a stretch as well.
He forcibly sacrificed thinking beings. Evil. The "transform everyone into halflings" thing is only the cherry on top.
It sounds like your character means well and regrets the few times he's hurt others. He's certainly misguided, and there is no way he's a paladin, but evil is a stretch as well.He forcibly sacrificed thinking beings. Evil. The "transform everyone into halflings" thing is only the cherry on top.
One evil action which the character regrets does not an evil being make.
He is also kind, friendly, and would sacrifice his own life for his friends. These traits are not evil.