Question for you guys,
We were playing a game in which the party rogue happened upon a resting dragon (the dragon was awake in his den and just laying there...bored or daydreaming or whatever). The rogue made an insanely high stealth check and the dragon didn't know he was there.
Our party has a means of telepathically communicating so the rogue relayed to us what he'd found and the party fighter suggested doing a coup de grace on the dragon. The GM said "You can't coup de grace him, he's not helpless". I argued that the rogue could because the dragon was flat-footed and given the circumstance he was helpless (he had no idea the assailant was there and effectively was laying there with his neck on a chopping block).
So the question is, could the coup de grace happen or not? I picture this as a similar scenario in which someone sneaks up behind a guard and slits his throat while the guard is not at alarm.
Question for you guys,
We were playing a game in which the party rogue happened upon a resting dragon (the dragon was awake in his den and just laying there...bored or daydreaming or whatever). The rogue made an insanely high stealth check and the dragon didn't know he was there.
Our party has a means of telepathically communicating so the rogue relayed to us what he'd found and the party fighter suggested doing a coup de grace on the dragon. The GM said "You can't coup de grace him, he's not helpless". I argued that the rogue could because the dragon was flat-footed and given the circumstance he was helpless (he had no idea the assailant was there and effectively was laying there with his neck on a chopping block).
So the question is, could the coup de grace happen or not? I picture this as a similar scenario in which someone sneaks up behind a guard and slits his throat while the guard is not at alarm.
If the dragon had been asleep, yes. Since it was awake, no. It doesn't matter that he is completely unaware of the rogue in this case.
Its very dumb, and a big issue of mine with the system, but no, he is not helpless.
Its very dumb, and a big issue of mine with the system, but no, he is not helpless.
I'll play by the rules and support my GM in his decisions...but I'd have to say that there should be an amendment to the rules for this. It seems silly to me that you can't coup de grace someone/thing that is completely unaware of the attack and isn't even on guard.
Its very dumb, and a big issue of mine with the system, but no, he is not helpless.I'll play by the rules and support my GM in his decisions...but I'd have to say that there should be an amendment to the rules for this. It seems silly to me that you can't coup de grace someone/thing that is completely unaware of the attack and isn't even on guard.
If you or the GM has a super sneaky character it can make for some unsatisfying boss fight if the boss dies, and having someone systematically take the entire party out would not be fun either, and really what logical reason would there be not to do so if the NPC can do it.
Kill player 1
Hide
Kill player 2
rinse...repeat
Its very dumb, and a big issue of mine with the system, but no, he is not helpless.I'll play by the rules and support my GM in his decisions...but I'd have to say that there should be an amendment to the rules for this. It seems silly to me that you can't coup de grace someone/thing that is completely unaware of the attack and isn't even on guard.If you or the GM has a super sneaky character it can make for some unsatisfying boss fight if the boss dies, and having someone systematically take the entire party out would not be fun either, and really what logical reason would there be not to do so if the NPC can do it.
Kill player 1
Hide
Kill player 2
rinse...repeat
Point taken, but I still think there should be some rule for this. Maybe an accompanying stealth check with penalties during the coup de grace round...
After all, if the GM wanted the party dead, he could certainly accomplish it without the need of a stealthy assassin; or if he wanted the epic boss fight, he could just say that the perception check was made by the victim.
yea that idea is great until an NPC rogue sneaks up and kills you while you were otherwise engaged. An invis, silent, and stealthed rogue would be a death machine.
Had it happen. Not that bad. When a sniper gets someone in their sights, people die. Happens.
If you or the GM has a super sneaky character it can make for some unsatisfying boss fight if the boss dies, and having someone systematically take the entire party out would not be fun either, and really what logical reason would there be not to do so if the NPC can do it.
Kill player 1
Hide
Kill player 2
rinse...repeat
Now you are taking what is being said out of context. In the orriginal scenario, the person being attacked has no reason to believe that their life is in danger, and thus would not be alert or cautious of the attack. In that situation they should be helpless, IMO.
Your situation is dealing with a scenario where the players are aware of the potential for a threat. Thus they should only be flat footed.
This kind of situation is what the assassin's Death Attack is used for.
If you give this ability to all players what good is the assassin class?
What good is the assassin class now?
What good is the assassin class now?This kind of situation is what the assassin's Death Attack is used for.
If you give this ability to all players what good is the assassin class?
Here here.
Once you sneak attack the opponent with the first attack they are no longer flat-footed. Also you would lose all stealth after the first attack unless you are under the effect of greater invis.
Nevermind that dragons have blindsense out to 60 feet so the rogue couldn't catch the dragon off guard while within melee range. Hell the dragon would get an attack of opportunity on the rogue as he moved through the threaten square to get into position for an attack.
Nevermind that dragons have blindsense out to 60 feet so the rogue couldn't catch the dragon off guard while within melee range. Hell the dragon would get an attack of opportunity on the rogue as he moved through the threaten square to get into position for an attack.
This. Dragons are nigh unsurprisable, at least using stealth.
Is there even any way around this? Earth Glide maybe?
Nope. Dragon needs to be helpless. Here is why - Coup De Grace is a full round action. It is not a quick thing. The dragon is aware but just has not seen the rogue. The minute you put knife to flesh, the dragon is going to see him and then good by rogue.
By the way. How does one sneak up on a dragon with out some kind of spell on them? The damn things have low light and darkvision. Must have been a very cluttered layer.
Thirdly, the dead guard was a mook with 1 HP.
I'm sure you'd be right about the mook guard...so touchè on that.
In sneaking up on the dragon, I think the rogue rolled a 19 or 20, he's got enchantments for stealth enhancement and we're level 13 plus coming up behind the dragon. Our party rogue can't do much but slink and steal but man is he good at those two things.
Nope. Dragon needs to be helpless. Here is why - Coup De Grace is a full round action. It is not a quick thing. The dragon is aware but just has not seen the rogue. The minute you put knife to flesh, the dragon is going to see him and then good by rogue.
By the way. How does one sneak up on a dragon with out some kind of spell on them? The damn things have low light and darkvision. Must have been a very cluttered layer.
Thirdly, the dead guard was a mook with 1 HP.
Not to mention Blind Sense. A Dragon doesn't even need to make a perception check to locate a creature within range.
Edit: Damn Ninjas.
You could sneak up on a dragon provided you could stay out of his line of effect, (behind treasure?) the entire time.
Once you sneak attack the opponent with the first attack they are no longer flat-footed. Also you would lose all stealth after the first attack unless you are under the effect of greater invis.
Nevermind that dragons have blindsense out to 60 feet so the rogue couldn't catch the dragon off guard while within melee range. Hell the dragon would get an attack of opportunity on the rogue as he moved through the threaten square to get into position for an attack.
Great point, I'd completely forgotten about blindsense and I don't remember it coming up that night at all...
Nevermind that dragons have blindsense out to 60 feet so the rogue couldn't catch the dragon off guard while within melee range. Hell the dragon would get an attack of opportunity on the rogue as he moved through the threaten square to get into position for an attack.
Yeah, the rogue could of been invisible and magically silenced, and the dragon would still have known he was there. You can't sneak up (easily) on a dragon who is awake. A Stealth check will not allow anyone to sneak up on an awake dragon, as Stealth checks only cover hiding and moving silently. A dragon can be blind and deaf, and still detect the rogue.
>.<
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Bah. The Dragon knew the rogue was there. Reminds of the World's Largest Dungeon podcast - the high level thief found a sleeping dragon on a huge pile of treasure - she positioned herself, and did a CDG where she rolled max damage from the sneak attack. Dragon was so powerful it only needed to roll a 15 in order to survive the attack, but it failed by 1.
Then the illusory sleeping dragon disappeared, and the REAL dragon, who had been invisible in a nearby alcove and watching the proceedings with much amusement, flew into the cavern and sent the party fleeing for their lives. :P
Bah. The Dragon knew the rogue was there. Reminds of the World's Largest Dungeon podcast - the high level thief found a sleeping dragon on a huge pile of treasure - she positioned herself, and did a CDG where she rolled max damage from the sneak attack. Dragon was so powerful it only needed to roll a 15 in order to survive the attack, but it failed by 1.
Then the illusory sleeping dragon disappeared, and the REAL dragon, who had been invisible in a nearby alcove and watching the proceedings with much amusement, flew into the cavern and sent the party fleeing for their lives. :P
That's hilarious.
Nevermind that dragons have blindsense out to 60 feet so the rogue couldn't catch the dragon off guard while within melee range. Hell the dragon would get an attack of opportunity on the rogue as he moved through the threaten square to get into position for an attack.Yeah, the rogue could of been invisible and magically silenced, and the dragon would still have known he was there. You can't sneak up (easily) on a dragon who is awake. A Stealth check will not allow anyone to sneak up on an awake dragon, as Stealth checks only cover hiding and moving silently. A dragon can be blind and deaf, and still detect the rogue.
Being asleep is still only a penalty to perception; he'll still sense you coming, even if he was in the middle of a nap.
The dragon could elect to move at exactly the moment of attack, foiling the CDG. This could happen even if he has no idea the rogue is there, out of "dumb luck".
Conversely, a creature that is totally passed out or being restrained by enemies doesn't have the dumb luck defense. That is the difference between a helpless creature and a flatfooted creature: the helpless creature couldn't act even if he knew.
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That's hilarious.
You have no idea. :) There's a tense, 20-minute discussion of her approach and positioning, and all of the players are basically quaking in their boots, because this is a colossal ancient red with class levels. She rolls her damage, and then when the DM rolled the save the whole table hushed up and then broke out in a huge cheer when the save failed.
And then the real dragon showed up.
Once you sneak attack the opponent with the first attack they are no longer flat-footed. Also you would lose all stealth after the first attack unless you are under the effect of greater invis.
Not true. They are still flat footed because they were suprized. You lose the bennefit of the invisibilty, but you still get flat footed for all attacks on the suprize round, as well as any attacks in the subsequent turn if you win initiative.
You are correct about Dragons having Blindsense though, so stealthing up to a dragon is problematic.