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I have long been an advocate of the "Casters aren't unbalanced if you follow the rules" camp. I find in most discussions, players haven't fully read the spells, or are getting a lot of leeway from DM's.
Then on the other hand...metamagic stuff.
The rods are pure broken. I don't think anyone can honestly contest this fact. They are overpowered and underpriced when you consider what they do.
The feats themselves I view more case by case, but how they stack and intermix...
This was an area that was out of hand in 3.5 and didn't get addressed at all in Pathfinder. If anything, it may now be worse.
So if you agree, propose house rules suggestions here.
And if you are a Dev, what am I missing, because normally I am defending the balance of the game but at this point on this issue...I'm not seeing it.
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Well, I understand your concern but in some ways it was at least closer to balance in PF through certain class specific items. For example, silver smite bracelet lets paladins get that extra smite for free. So in a way, its like a metamagic rod for paladins.
I was just shown how a you can do over 200 area damage to a 20 ft spread at long range with 6th level spells slot thanks to stacking metamagic.
Which seems a bit ridiculous.
Well, I understand your concern but in some ways it was at least closer to balance in PF through certain class specific items. For example, silver smite bracelet lets paladins get that extra smite for free. So in a way, its like a metamagic rod for paladins.I was just shown how a you can do over 200 area damage to a 20 ft spread at long range with 6th level spells slot thanks to stacking metamagic.
Which seems a bit ridiculous.
Its just damage. As well, if I remember correctly, its fire damage, and one specific spell; a common one at that.
A Spell Immunity spell or a Ring of Counterspells seem like they'd stop it dead, no?
Well, I understand your concern but in some ways it was at least closer to balance in PF through certain class specific items. For example, silver smite bracelet lets paladins get that extra smite for free. So in a way, its like a metamagic rod for paladins.I was just shown how a you can do over 200 area damage to a 20 ft spread at long range with 6th level spells slot thanks to stacking metamagic.
Which seems a bit ridiculous.
There are a lot of ifs in that scenario, if you recall.
So it's gone from "blasting sucks!" to "blasting is overpowered because of metamagics!" How the tide has turned... ;)
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There are a lot of ifs in that scenario, if you recall.Well, I understand your concern but in some ways it was at least closer to balance in PF through certain class specific items. For example, silver smite bracelet lets paladins get that extra smite for free. So in a way, its like a metamagic rod for paladins.I was just shown how a you can do over 200 area damage to a 20 ft spread at long range with 6th level spells slot thanks to stacking metamagic.
Which seems a bit ridiculous.
Not really. Believe me, I want there to be. If you go through my history you will find battle after battle against the "God-Wizard" crowd.
But the metamagics...I can't really argue with them.
And as to it being fire, with the admixture evocation school you can chance the type of energy. And this is just one example, with the same procedure easily applicable. This isn't a corner case, or even a cheese exploit.
The fact that metamagic feats stack is, in my opinion, broken. It was poorly thought out and designed in 3.5 and wasn't corrected in Pathfinder.
Rods are, in my opinion, beyond question broken.
I want to be wrong about this, so feel free to present evidence. I really do mean it when I say I hope the Devs jump in here and say I'm missing a nerf.
But I don't think so. So I'll be houseruling metamagic rods out at minimum and likely ruling they don't stack.
But again, I'm open to suggestion.
Stacking metamagic feats... well, I mean, its not free, is it? You're talking about massively upping the spell slot cost of a spell, at the cost of several feats, traits etc, in order to bring its damage up to a point where its even vaguely equivalent to just casting a base spell of the level the slot you've had to put it in.
Its expensive.
Rods a good workaround for part of this, but I'm pretty sure you can only use one at a time, and they are fairly expensive.
Also, if I remember correctly... they're fragile. Or easily stolen. So that's a liability.
I also personally feel persistent is more powerful than Maximize or Empower, and you dont need anything else to stack it with either...
Not really. Believe me, I want there to be. If you go through my history you will find battle after battle against the "God-Wizard" crowd.
But the metamagics...I can't really argue with them.
And as to it being fire, with the admixture evocation school you can chance the type of energy. And this is just one example, with the same procedure easily applicable. This isn't a corner case, or even a cheese exploit.
The fact that metamagic feats stack is, in my opinion, broken. It was poorly thought out and designed in 3.5 and wasn't corrected in Pathfinder.
Rods are, in my opinion, beyond question broken.
I want to be wrong about this, so feel free to present evidence. I really do mean it when I say I hope the Devs jump in here and say I'm missing a nerf.
But I don't think so. So I'll be houseruling metamagic rods out at minimum and likely ruling they don't stack.
But again, I'm open to suggestion.
I'd present evidence to counter your arguments but you haven't given any evidence to support your arguments. So far you presented your opinion, and one argument that I'm not sure could be pulled off without enhancing the hell out of the spell, which would take a lot of money and time. So please make a case, not a whine.
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So it's gone from "blasting sucks!" to "blasting is overpowered because of metamagics!" How the tide has turned... ;)I've always thought metamagic was either useless or broken, depending on how you used it.
Up to this point (with the exception of Persistent) I thought it was just the rods that were the problem, as the level adjustment made them equal to spells of the same level. But the synergies in stacking combined with the synergies of the schools are making me rethink it.
Like I said, at this book not allowing rods and not allowing the feats to stack may be enough, but I'm going to have to agree with the other side that it is broken until I'm shown otherwise.
Which again is really weird for me since I've argued the other side for so long.
Not really. Believe me, I want there to be. If you go through my history you will find battle after battle against the "God-Wizard" crowd.
But the metamagics...I can't really argue with them.
And as to it being fire, with the admixture evocation school you can chance the type of energy. And this is just one example, with the same procedure easily applicable. This isn't a corner case, or even a cheese exploit.
The fact that metamagic feats stack is, in my opinion, broken. It was poorly thought out and designed in 3.5 and wasn't corrected in Pathfinder.
I fail to see the problem. Yeah, empower and maximize "stack", but not in an overpowered way. The extra damage from empower is not maximized, only the base damage of the spell. Really, all that metamagics do is allow you to use a lower level spell in a higher level spell slot and have it be about as effective as a spell of the higher level slot.
And in many ways, a metamagic enhanced spell is actually inferior to a higher level spell. For example, an empowered fireball does the same damage as cone of cold as a 5th level spell, but its save DC is still that of a 3rd level spell, not a 5th.
Rods are, in my opinion, beyond question broken.
I want to be wrong about this, so feel free to present evidence. I really do mean it when I say I hope the Devs jump in here and say I'm missing a nerf.
But I don't think so. So I'll be houseruling metamagic rods out at minimum and likely ruling they don't stack.
But again, I'm open to suggestion.
You're overreacting. The example given in the other thread was the extreme end of what is possible at level 20. And how often can a caster do this? A metamagic rod only works 3 times a day. I can make archer characters that do crazy amounts of damage at that level all day long.
That build got a lot of its damage from things that required the damage to be fire type, not anything else.
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I'd present evidence to counter your arguments but you haven't given any evidence to support your arguments. So far you presented your opinion, and one argument that I'm not sure could be pulled off without enhancing the hell out of the spell, which would take a lot of money and time. So please make a case, not a whine.Not really. Believe me, I want there to be. If you go through my history you will find battle after battle against the "God-Wizard" crowd.
But the metamagics...I can't really argue with them.
And as to it being fire, with the admixture evocation school you can chance the type of energy. And this is just one example, with the same procedure easily applicable. This isn't a corner case, or even a cheese exploit.
The fact that metamagic feats stack is, in my opinion, broken. It was poorly thought out and designed in 3.5 and wasn't corrected in Pathfinder.
Rods are, in my opinion, beyond question broken.
I want to be wrong about this, so feel free to present evidence. I really do mean it when I say I hope the Devs jump in here and say I'm missing a nerf.
But I don't think so. So I'll be houseruling metamagic rods out at minimum and likely ruling they don't stack.
But again, I'm open to suggestion.
GIt's not my case, Perry Mason.
Rods are relatively cheap when compared to other equipment.
The real problem, from what I see, is Spell Perfection. It simply makes it too easy to do the stacking, since one of the feats used will no longer apply to raising the level of the slot used.
There's nothing wrong with spell perfection. It does not work if the total modified level of the spell would be brought above 9th level.
"Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level."
I hate the rods.
the 2.0 to 3.0 conversion moved the game from "you are your stuff" to "you are who you make yourself"
With the rods, you're back to being your stuff again. Why on earth would any caster take a metamagic feat when the rod not only duplicates the feat, but does it BETTER by not raising the spell level.
Rods are relatively cheap when compared to other equipment.
You do realize that there are three different versions of each metamagic rod, and that the one's that can enhance 7th to 9th level spells are very expensive, don't you? A greater rod of quicken spell, for example, is 170,000 gp. Only +10 weapons, few rings, a couple staffs and one wondrous item are more expensive than that!
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You do realize that there are three different versions of each metamagic rod, and that the one's that can enhance 7th to 9th level spells are very expensive, don't you? A greater rod of quicken spell, for example, is 170,000 gp. Only +10 weapons, few rings, a couple staffs and one wondrous item are more expensive than that!
Rods are relatively cheap when compared to other equipment.
Yes. And you do realize the effect the spell as it is, not the slot from which it is cast.
For example Fireball is 3rd level, modified by a lesser metamagic rod, regardless of the slot cast from.
At least as currently written.
So maximizing a fireball can be done three times a day with a 14,000 gold rod, regardless of what other feats you add to it to change it's spell slot.
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The real problem, from what I see, is Spell Perfection. It simply makes it too easy to do the stacking, since one of the feats used will no longer apply to raising the level of the slot used.
+1.
It's a really, really strong feat.
On the other hand, not available until level 15 and IMHO the game's well into silly country by then.
My biggest beef with the metamagic rods is that they let prepared casters step on the toes of spontaneous casters. Spontaneous casters should be the kings of applying metamagics on the fly - that's part of their whole strength. Allowing the Rods to be applied on the fly just spits in their faces.
I personally follow the general guideline that the rods act as if you had the feat. For prepared casters, that means that you have to prepare the spell using the feat when you prepare your other spells. Still gets you out of the level increase, but it requires planning. That's the whole schtick with prepared casters, and that's how it should stay. Then they become appropriate for the two styles of casting, just like the feats themselves.
I'm not convinced that metamagics are broken, but that's likely because I almost never see them used. The games I play in and run rarely reach the point where adjusting spell levels becomes terribly viable, as characters rarely are casting spells above about 5th level, if they're lucky.
A greater rod of quicken spell, for example, is 170,000 gp. Only +10 weapons, few rings, a couple staffs and one wondrous item are more expensive than that!
Sure. And what level slot would it take to quicken those spells without the rod?
Right.
A greater quicken rod, for a character with the 7th+ level spells to use it, is simultaneously one of the most expensive items in the game and a bargain.
Which gets you a 60 pt dmg fireball with a save of 20 if you are lucky, which at 10th level won't kill anything and will probably do half damage.
Being able to do 200 dmg with a fireball at level 20? That's like one swing of a 2h Fighter's weapon at that level. I fail to see the problem. He's ALSO not going to kill anything, and fire resistance/immunity and high reflex saves are all over the place at that level.
When he tosses the spell, the targets saves, and has fire res 30, that 70 dmg is not going to mean much at all to a CR 20+ creature, you know? And he still has to get through spell resistance.
You want real metamagic abuse, you need to go 3.5 with Arcane Thesis and Metamagic spell, and start stacking metamagic feats. Plenty easy to make a Magic Missile build doing 100 pts out of a level 5 slot that way, without a rod. Take it to 9th level, you could be rocking 800 dmg or so.
==Aelryinth
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I hate the rods.
the 2.0 to 3.0 conversion moved the game from "you are your stuff" to "you are who you make yourself"
With the rods, you're back to being your stuff again. Why on earth would any caster take a metamagic feat when the rod not only duplicates the feat, but does it BETTER by not raising the spell level.
What hit me was the fact that they can do both, since the rod effect the spells level, not the slot. So you can stack multiple feats and a rod into a spell.
"In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell."
So your 35,000 gold metamagic rod could quicken one of your maximized fireballs in your 5th level slot and let you cast the other one normally meaning two maximized fireballs in a round at 10th level for a sorcerer (9th for a wizard) as soon as you can afford the rod.
Meaning 120 damage in a round at 10th level at long range, before we add in any other bonuses from school, bloodline, etc...that isn't really digging into the cheese. That is one feat and one rod, well under WBL.
Yes it's only 3 times a day and burns a lot of spell slots, but that is at long range, multiple times a day.
Compare that to the DPR Olympics, where you are generally in melee.
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You do realize that there are three different versions of each metamagic rod, and that the one's that can enhance 7th to 9th level spells are very expensive, don't you? A greater rod of quicken spell, for example, is 170,000 gp. Only +10 weapons, few rings, a couple staffs and one wondrous item are more expensive than that!
Rods are relatively cheap when compared to other equipment.Yes. And you do realize the effect the spell as it is, not the slot from which it is cast.
For example Fireball is 3rd level, modified by a lesser metamagic rod, regardless of the slot cast from.
At least as currently written.
So maximizing a fireball can be done three times a day with a 14,000 gold rod, regardless of what other feats you add to it to change it's spell slot.
Huh... my table has always played that it modified the spell based on the level of the spell slot.
Sweet though... now I know not to throw away any of the old rods, if that's the official way it works.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see an errata that makes the way you play be the way it should be played. But currently it says
"In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell."
So it makes a 3rd level spell almost viable at higher levels...I fail to see that as a bad thing, considering how much direct damage gets hammered on at higher levels.
And getting a collection of rods is very pricey, akin to getting a selection of magical weapons. I'm just not feeling the problem, here.
==Aelryinth
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see an errata that makes the way you play be the way it should be played. But currently it says"In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell."
I believe that is talking about spell save DCs, whether or not the spell can penetrate a globe of invulnerability, and the like.
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So it makes a 3rd level spell almost viable at higher levels...I fail to see that as a bad thing, considering how much direct damage gets hammered on at higher levels.
And getting a collection of rods is very pricey, akin to getting a selection of magical weapons. I'm just not feeling the problem, here.
==Aelryinth
Who needs a collection? The one you want is quicken, so you can cast the spell you just enhanced twice in a round.
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I believe that is talking about spell save DCs, whether or not the spell can penetrate a globe of invulnerability, and the like.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see an errata that makes the way you play be the way it should be played. But currently it says"In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell."
"In all ways"
Like I said, I want your reading to be correct, but "all" isn't subjective.
"In all ways"Like I said, I want your reading to be correct, but "all" isn't subjective.
I still don't see the problem, considering that you are specifically limited to using only one metamagic rod at a time, and any other metamagics you use will cost you higher level spell slots. Yeah, it's a nice boon, but it's only 3 times a day.
OP, chill. The sky is not falling.
"Even though..." there are exceptions to the perfect all. The rods are used as the spell is cast, the spell is cast as the higher level spell.
In any case, dealing that sort of damage is what it takes to make blasting not embarassing. Metamagic rods may be important caster gear, but between costs and using a hand, don't see the problem.
My mind, she is blown!
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"Even though..." there are exceptions to the perfect all. The rods are used as the spell is cast, the spell is cast as the higher level spell.
In any case, dealing that sort of damage is what it takes to make blasting not embarassing. Metamagic rods may be important caster gear, but between costs and using a hand, don't see the problem.
It includes the exception.
"In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description."
Which means the spell is still the spell level of the spell, the slot is being consumed by the feat. Again, I would like for this to be different, but it isn't.
"Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower."
The problem is.
"A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell."
The sky is not falling, but this part of the game is not balanced. You don't even have to cheese to exploit it.
Like I said, rods are going to be out in my game. I am on the fence about letting feats stack, but I don't think that will be very much of an issue if rods aren't adding that extra boost on top of the feats.
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Or you could take one sixth level slot and summon a huge elemental and choose whatever damage type you want as well as having some aligned outsider options and dinosaurs to choose from. 200 damage in one turn is impressive, but 200 damage from two sixth level slots and one turn's worth of casting isn't looking so special.
Assuming your spell isn't disrupted, since it is a full round action to summon unless you are a specialist of some sort. And also assuming where you put the dino when you were casting is still a good place to put it now that a round has passed.
Summons are very, very over-rated.
I'm not a Wizard's are god guy. I'm strongly on the "Wizards are all win or all fail most of the time." side of the debate.
But now I'm looking at this issue with metamagics and realizing that this one subsystem is out of whack.
It includes the exception."In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description."
Which means the spell is still the spell level of the spell, the slot is being consumed by the feat. Again, I would like for this to be different, but it isn't.
"Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower."
The problem is.
"A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell."
I'm still not getting what it is about this that you think is a problem, unless you're interpreting the rules in a very different way than I am.
It's right there in the rules for metamagic rods:
"A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast."
The metamagic rod gives you a "free" metamagic 3/day. That let's you apply one (and only one) metamagic at a time to a spell without increasing the level of the spell. Any other metamagics you use DO require higher level slots.
Really, the only thing about metamagic rods that is potentially abusive is that they let you apply a metamagic to a spell even when it would raise its effective level above 9th, since you normally can't do that until epic levels. But big deal. Yeah, you can cast a quickened, empowered, maximized, widened fireball. And guess what? Its save DC is still that of a 3rd level spell and it still can't go through a lesser globe of invulnerabiltiy. The fact that the spell's effective level doesn't change with metamagics is as much a penalty as it is a boon!
The sky is not falling, but this part of the game is not balanced. You don't even have to cheese to exploit it.
Like I said, rods are going to be out in my game. I am on the fence about letting feats stack, but I don't think that will be very much of an issue if rods aren't adding that extra boost on top of the feats.
Do whatever you want in your games, but as I and other people are telling you, you're overreacting. I encourage you to try this out in actual play rather than making panicked decisions based on how things look on paper.
Well, I understand your concern but in some ways it was at least closer to balance in PF through certain class specific items. For example, silver smite bracelet lets paladins get that extra smite for free. So in a way, its like a metamagic rod for paladins.I was just shown how a you can do over 200 area damage to a 20 ft spread at long range with 6th level spells slot thanks to stacking metamagic.
Which seems a bit ridiculous.
They have always been stackable. Back in the 3.5 days(as if it was so long ago :) ) I think I saw a build doing 1000 points of damage. I don't think the 200 is broken in pathfinder because it takes a lot to be able to do it. I think he is burning 4 or 5 feats, and my NPC's spy on PC's so Protection from Energy is in play, on top of energy resistance and good saves. Then he(the caster) gets targeted by all the bad guys ala focused fire. Now I understand that power level is not for everyone, including myself anymore, but I rather see it as an option than having it ever cut off.
Some people enjoy games like that.PS:Stock monsters have issues with it, but I think a GM should let his players know what he comfortable with up front so that hopefully a player holds back, or decides not to sit at the table.
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I'm still not getting what it is about this that you think is a problem, unless you're interpreting the rules in a very different way than I am.
It's right there in the rules for metamagic rods:
"A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast."
The metamagic rod gives you a "free" metamagic 3/day. That let's you apply one (and only one) metamagic at a time to a spell without increasing the level of the spell. Any other metamagics you use DO require higher level slots.
Really, the only thing about metamagic rods that is potentially abusive is that they let you apply a metamagic to a spell even when it would raise its effective level above 9th, since you normally can't do that until epic levels. But big deal. Yeah, you can cast a quickened, empowered, maximized, widened fireball. And guess what? Its save DC is still that of a 3rd level spell and it still can't go through a lesser globe of invulnerabiltiy. The fact that the spell's effective level doesn't change with metamagics is as much a penalty as it is a boon!
They require higher slots, but the spell is still the level of the spell. So a third spell with metamagic feats added can still be additionally buffed by a metamagic rod.
Which are way, way too cheap. A lesser rod of quicken spell is 35000 gold (half if crafted) and would allow you to cast two of those fireballs you described in a round, three times a day.
For roughly the same price as a +4 sword.
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They have always been stackable. Back in the 3.5 days(as if it was so long ago :) ) I think I saw a build doing 1000 points of damage. I don't think the 200 is broken in pathfinder because it takes a lot to be able to do it. I think he is burning 4 or 5 feats, and my NPC's spy on PC's so Protection from Energy is in play, on top of energy resistance and good saves. Then he(the caster) gets targeted by all the bad guys ala focused fire. Now I understand that power level is not for everyone, including myself anymore, but I rather see it as an option than having it ever cut off.
Some people enjoy games like that.PS:Stock monsters have issues with it, but I think a GM should let his players know what he comfortable with up front so that hopefully a player holds back, or decides not to sit at the table.
The fact that is has always been broken doesn't cause it to be less broken now.
The fact that is has always been broken doesn't cause it to be less broken now.
They have always been stackable. Back in the 3.5 days(as if it was so long ago :) ) I think I saw a build doing 1000 points of damage. I don't think the 200 is broken in pathfinder because it takes a lot to be able to do it. I think he is burning 4 or 5 feats, and my NPC's spy on PC's so Protection from Energy is in play, on top of energy resistance and good saves. Then he(the caster) gets targeted by all the bad guys ala focused fire. Now I understand that power level is not for everyone, including myself anymore, but I rather see it as an option than having it ever cut off.
Some people enjoy games like that.PS:Stock monsters have issues with it, but I think a GM should let his players know what he comfortable with up front so that hopefully a player holds back, or decides not to sit at the table.
That is not what I was saying.
What I am saying is that broken is relative for the most part.|
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Why are you comparing quicken spells to none quicken spells? Also there is a new feat that allows casters to summon as a standard action. So if you have a quicken rod, you can pull put two large elementals and your chance of being disrupted is the same as casting 2 fireballs. Hell it's even less feat intensive then the 200 damage per round by casting 2 fireballs.
Because what you are describing can't be done with a lesser metamagic rod, as it is a 5th level spell.
What I am describing can.
Which is the problem.
Lesser metamagic rod is 35000 gold, or half if crafted.
Normal metamagic rod (what you would need) is 75,500 gp, or half if crafted.