I feel like the "Leopard" needs fixing. What do?


Advice


I'm a bit of a noobie to pathfinder, so I am not sure if my instincts here are wrong, or if I should go ahead and adjust monsters which on paper seem unusually strong for their CR.

The problem is the Leopard's damage output. It is a CR 2 creature. On a pounce, it will charge in with 5 attacks at +8 to hit. If the attacks all land, it deals 18-33(25) damage. That number is frankly terrifying at level 2. Its hitpoints and AC seem in line with that of a CR 2 creature.

Even ignoring its pounce and grappling skills, the normal damage for this creature is out of line with the monster creation guidelines in the back of the book(as do the other Felines). So do I just knock its Str+Dex down until it is in line with Table: Monster Statistics by CR?

I guess I'm just coming here for a reality check. Is this monster really too strong or am I overreacting?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
QuestionC wrote:

I'm a bit of a noobie to pathfinder, so I am not sure if my instincts here are wrong, or if I should go ahead and adjust monsters which on paper seem unusually strong for their CR.

The problem is the Leopard's damage output. It is a CR 2 creature. On a pounce, it will charge in with 5 attacks at +8 to hit. If the attacks all land, it deals 18-33(25) damage. That number is frankly terrifying at level 2. Its hitpoints and AC seem in line with that of a CR 2 creature.

Even ignoring its pounce and grappling skills, the normal damage for this creature is out of line with the monster creation guidelines in the back of the book(as do the other Felines). So do I just knock its Str+Dex down until it is in line with Table: Monster Statistics by CR?

I guess I'm just coming here for a reality check. Is this monster really too strong or am I overreacting?

Cats are scary. For animals, they have huge damage output. That said, against tanky characters (like fighers/pallies/etc.) you're generally looking at 18-20 AC, where the cat should be missing at least half the time; this should put the damage output in the merely 'terrifying but survivable' range.

Now, due to action economy, you're party should probably murder the cat after its scary charge; just think of its high damage as ensuring that it actually costs the party something to fight it, and dont scale the difficulty up 'just a little bit' by adding a second one if you're worried; two of these things would really up the ante quite a bit.

But I dont think the Leopard is an unreasonable opponent at level 2; if you're worried about it, consider running a pair of 'young' templated leopards instead. It should tone down their burst damage potential while making them about the same challenge. You can find the Young Simple Template in the Bestiary or on the PRD.


I'd rather fight the leopard than a fighter with two handed weapon who is the same CR. The leopard has high damage potential it statistically won't hit with all those attacks. Chances are you will take 5 hp damage from a hit it. Now the fighter with 2 handed sword that's dangerous, they only need to hit once. A single hit from CR 2 two handed fighter Orc with a Great Axe is 16 on average and they have +7 to hit, 1 better than the Leopard. They have better hit points too at 23(35 ferocious) and about the same AC. As well criticals for the leopard might do 13 max on bite and the chance of all 3 attack being a critical are rare. As for the Orc it is 48 for the critical.

I'd say CR 2 is appropriate the leopard I'd prefer to face that than a Orc fighter with Great Axe.


Here's the thing that's getting me... If the Leopard is balanced, doesn't that mean that Table: Monster Statistics by CR is just flat wrong? There's no way that they can both be right.

According to that table, the Leopard has the hitpoints of a CR 2 creature.
The AC and Attack Bonus of a CR 3 creature.
And the damage of a CR 4 creature.
And on top of that, its special abilities seem to really knock the damage potential up.


Its a predatory animal.

The second it takes damage it will run and live to fight (eat) another day. Once the animal realizes the PCs aren't easy food it will high tail it out of there.


Cats are really deadly.


QuestionC wrote:

Here's the thing that's getting me... If the Leopard is balanced, doesn't that mean that Table: Monster Statistics by CR is just flat wrong? There's no way that they can both be right.

Nope. They are both right. None of the monsters in the book were designed with that table, and so they don't need to follow its guidelines.

The table merely shows the average statistics of a monster at those CRs. In order for it to be average statistics, some monsters need to come in below those stats, and some need to be higher. Leopards are simply higher. It even says so on page 290:

Quote:
Once you have a creature’s type and CR determined, use Table 1–1 to determine its approximate statistics by CR. These values are a rough guideline only. You will notice that many of the existing monsters in this book do not follow these guidelines exactly. Most monsters excel in one of these areas, usually in the amount of damage dealt, but lag in one or two other areas to help balance them out. When referring to Table 1–1, keep the following points in mind.


Think about it. It's a predatory cat. How would you do going toe-to-toe with a leopard? They're a glass-cannon sort of enemy. With an AC of 15 and only 19 HP, they could get one-shotted by a high damage roll from your average 2h fighter. And their average damage if every attack hits still wouldn't be enough to kill that same fighter, though it may knock him into unconscious.

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