Hey All. So last night in a campaign i play in my party went up against a shining child. I am a dual wielding fighter, with the two weapon fighting archetype. My stats and such are as followed.
We use the 4d6 drop the lowest dice for stats. I rolled really well and got.
level 12 Elf fighter:
STR 18
DEX 19
CON 16
INT 14
Wis 14
CHA 14
I dual wield bastard swords. All my magical gear is as follows.
2 indestructible bastard swords that do an extra 1d6 Vs. Outsiders
2 sheaths of bladesteath
Elven Chainmail
feats are:
Weapon focus +greater
Weapon Spec + greater
All two weapon feats besides defense
Imp crit
Crit Focus
Bleeding Crit.
Exotic Weapon Bastard
So on a full attack i attack six times with
+19/+14/+9
and do 1d10+10+1d6 and if i hit both times i get the extra 1d10+6 once.
Anyways, we started the fight and i went up and full attacked it.
I crit twice, and hit and got 2 normal hits.
All together i did 110 Damage and 20 Bleed damage in one full attack. Our GM thinks that is far too powerful for one attack. Is the damage im doing OP or is this on par with someone my level as a fighter?
Nope, you are doing right. Kick back and congratulate yourself on a job well done. The GM should build challenging encounters for your group. A single enemy, even one of a higher CR, is very rarely a challenge for any group let alone one with a level 12 fighter. If a single foe is story appropraite the GM should tweek its HP to equal the damage the main combat bunny does with a max critical hit for every single attack (so in your case 6xbastardsword crits)+20%.
*falls over laughing*
I was doing the same but I managed to keep myself from posting until now. :D
No, not at all. I don't think the GM is used to high level games. He should be happy you are only doing 110.
With crits im not sure what the norm is, but our GM just has us roll the damage dice for the crit, not any mods. I also had a haste spell on me at the time so i still missed 4 of my attacks. I don't think my damage was OP at all. I agree that one thing at a higher level isn't going to do much, i've pointed that out several times. Im sure i could do more but Our GM puts his own prices on things which limits our options for weapons and bonus. there are no +1 swords or anything of the like. a sword with indestructible and a +1d6 vs outsider sword is 28k. Also getting any items that boost any stats is pretty much out of the question unless we farm gold for a few sessions.
I just wanted to know what eveyone thought, thanks all
|
You are OK with damage appropriate for your level and class.
I used to like the dual bastard sword style but the penalties where somewhat meh for me.
Feel free to show this thread to your GM and take note that at your level a dual dagger wielding rogue would be far more OP regarding damage while flanking.
You are OK with damage appropriate for your level and class.
I used to like the dual bastard sword style but the penalties where somewhat meh for me.Feel free to show this thread to your GM and take note that at your level a dual dagger wielding rogue would be far more OP regarding damage while flanking.
I doubt that the rogue would do that.
But a fighter specced fully for 2wp fighting will do about that much damage if he is lucky. Ofc you have amazing stats and all, but without a +4 str belt, gloves of dueling and 2 +2 or more swords, then you would be significantly higher, even if you had used 20 or 25 point buy. So there is nothing to do for him but change the monsters accordingly, or simply put in some minions to make it harder to get to the boss.
It's amusing that I could make a fighter that would out-dps even those stats. And I'd use a 20 point buy.
Remember, bastard swords are a 1 handed weapon, not light, so by having one in your offhand you're taking big penalties to hit. You're missing Power Attack entirely. If you really wanted to stack up the crits, you'd drop the bastard swords altogether and dual wield Kukri's. You want more bleed? Make them Wounding, take the Bloody Assault feat.
Or drop the TWF altogether, grab yourself a falchion, and go to town with much more reliable damage that can punch through even tough DR like it was nothing.
So, to answer your original question, no your damage is not OP. A well optimized fighter could chew through something even faster than that.
With the two weapon archetype it really isn't bad. when i attack with both weapons (which i can do as a standard action) I get a +2 to att/dmg. with the improved balance feature im actually not taking any negatives at all to my attack. Though i'd be interested to see what you could come up with that would totally out DPS me. The only thing you get is a weapon that gets one +2 and one +1 enhancement, each has to be an enchantment. nothing else. and remember my GM doesn't do double mods on crits, so only damage dice.
Also to TriOmegaZero, We followed one of the book suggestions for getting stats. I just happened to roll stupidly well this time.
Remember, bastard swords are a 1 handed weapon, not light, so by having one in your offhand you're taking big penalties to hit. You're missing Power Attack entirely. If you really wanted to stack up the crits, you'd drop the bastard swords altogether and dual wield Kukri's. You want more bleed? Make them Wounding, take the Bloody Assault feat.
Ugh, I have a dual-kukri wielding cavalier in one of my groups. He tries to play it off like it was a roleplaying thing, but we all know he was just looking to optimize. Anyway, he'd look a bit silly, running around in large metal armor on a horse with two knives.
In regards to the original poster, don't worry too much about being OP. Your GM is just mad, because he thought his beastie was gonna tear the party a new one, and you ate it up. Feel awesome about it.
Not to hi-jack the thread, this is just like something that happened in my first 3.5 game that I played. We did the same point system as the OP, don't remember the breakdown though.
Played a lvl 7 dwarf fighter sword/board build, had a dwarven war axe and a tower shield, basically I was a walking door. Had about 26 AC and like 80+HP. The DM couldn't touch me, nothing he threw at me could touch me, except a barbarian that was in an opposing group,(we were playing the Dragon's lair campaign) he actually almost killed me. When he finaly had a guy that was able to hit me, he forgot about my AoO. Well I rolled, it turned out to be a crit, comfirmed the crit, and did nearly max damage while adding in my PA. I think all in all I did around 50-60 damage. Killed the guy outright before he was able to do his damage to me (he still had full HP when he attacked me). Needless to say the DM was a bit shocked and saddened by that. Same thing happened later when we got into the goblin's town, we round a corner and get attacked, first goblin I walked up on, I chopped him in half with another crit. Two best sessions I have ever played.
Overall I don't think two weapon fighting is that good. Normally, it requires cranking out your DEX at the expense of other stats you'd really like to have higher, requires a lot of feats, and makes you sad whenever you can't full attack, which should be often.
But I also think it's the case that the higher/crazier your stats get, the better TWF gets. If you can have a high STR and a high enough DEX to get the TWF feats without running around with a 7 CON, it really pours out the damage when it can full attack.
Gorram forum ate my three mile long post. You have really unusual stats and a bunch of house rules in place that make it hard to compare, but average DPR is about 60, about 65 vs. outsiders. That's easy as hell to beat with a 20 point buy. Actually, the DPR olympics has characters beating that frequently, with only the core rulebook and a 20 point buy... At level 10.
Dropping the bastard swords for kukris and swapping EWP for power attack would gain you A LOT of damage.
*falls over laughing*
By my guess, you're at 45-50 point buy depending on where your every 4th level boosts went.
Recommended point buy is 20.
Well, he might have items that boost it, he might not have mentioned that because its included in the stats already.
Start at 14, 15, 15, 10, 12, 12, which is 23 points.
After racial boosts (elf) and 2 points in str, and 1 in con, he needs a +2 item to all. That's 20.000 gp, well within the limit for a 12 lvl fighter.
I'm sure you can tweak that a bit more, just saying it's possible without 50 point buy.
Actually: 12, 13, 13, 12, 14, 14 thats 20 points.
Same 4th level distribution, but now he needs a +4 to all physical belt. 40.000 gp, more expensive but still doable. Maybe the GM is nice with loot.
*is silent now*
We need a t-shirt for gamers that says 'Crit Happens'. If you want to play with crits you have to know that the guys that hit hard (primary damage dealers) will crit sometimes. I had a whole adventure leading up to a big fight with a pit fiend, and on the first round the paladin smote crit him, knocked out most of the devil's health. It happens, the paladin felt awesome, we move on. If you are going to play a game with crits you have to know that sometimes it will make things anti-climactic.
We need a t-shirt for gamers that says 'Crit Happens'. If you want to play with crits you have to know that the guys that hit hard (primary damage dealers) will crit sometimes. I had a whole adventure leading up to a big fight with a pit fiend, and on the first round the paladin smote crit him, knocked out most of the devil's health. It happens, the paladin felt awesome, we move on. If you are going to play a game with crits you have to know that sometimes it will make things anti-climactic.
you mean something like this?
With crits im not sure what the norm is, but our GM just has us roll the damage dice for the crit, not any mods. I also had a haste spell on me at the time so i still missed 4 of my attacks. I don't think my damage was OP at all. I agree that one thing at a higher level isn't going to do much, i've pointed that out several times. Im sure i could do more but Our GM puts his own prices on things which limits our options for weapons and bonus. there are no +1 swords or anything of the like. a sword with indestructible and a +1d6 vs outsider sword is 28k. Also getting any items that boost any stats is pretty much out of the question unless we farm gold for a few sessions.
First, with crits, static damage mods are multiplied on crits, like enhancement bonus, weapon specilisation, favorit enemy, power attack etc. (basicly anything that says +2 or +1 to damage etc).
Bonus damage dice are not. The +1d6 vs outsiders is not, the 5d6 sneak attack is not, etc.Now to the bolded text, I'm not sure that's what you actually mean, but a sword needs a +1 enhancement first before it can get any other bonuses.
I'm not quite sure what Indestructible is, Adamantite doesn't realy fit either? And the +1d6 sounds like a weak form of bane really.
I'd like you to recalculate you to hit score with the following in mind.
Assess your feat build and keep in mind that no matter how strong you are, bastard swords are NOT light weapons. so you would be at minus 4 to hit with BOTH of them even with the feat.
This ability replaces Armor Training 3.
|
Two-Weapon Fighter** spoiler omitted **I'd like you to recalculate you to hit score with the following in mind.
Assess your feat build and keep in mind that no matter how strong you are, bastard swords are NOT light weapons. so you would be at minus 4 to hit with BOTH of them even with the feat.
At 12th level then you're about where you should be. Fighters ARE the kings of unassisted melee damage after all.
Not according to his list of magic items.
Well, he might have items that boost it, he might not have mentioned that because its included in the stats already.
That's why I said he might not have specifically mentioned it. I dunno, maybe he did use 40 pts buy or just rolled extremely well, who knows. Just saying those stats are possible with 20 pt buy. However the stat array you need to achieve it (see my post above) seems a bit silly for a fighter, so I admit it's doubtful.
Not according to his list of magic items.
Well, he might have items that boost it, he might not have mentioned that because its included in the stats already.That's why I said he might not have specifically mentioned it. I dunno, maybe he did use 40 pts buy or just rolled extremely well, who knows. Just saying those stats are possible with 20 pt buy. However the stat array you need to achieve it (see my post above) seems a bit silly for a fighter, so I admit it's doubtful.
"We use the 4d6 drop the lowest dice for stats. I rolled really well and got." He said they rolled in the OP.
|
|
@Canuck
Azreal is right, Two-Weapon Warrior archetype has the Improved Balance(Ex) at level 11.
It either reduces two-weapon fighting penalties by -1 or allows him to use a medium one-handed weapon as a light one so a pair of Bastard Swords at his level has penalties at -2/-2
You are OK with damage appropriate for your level and class.
I used to like the dual bastard sword style but the penalties where somewhat meh for me.Feel free to show this thread to your GM and take note that at your level a dual dagger wielding rogue would be far more OP regarding damage while flanking.
I doubt that the rogue would do that.
But a fighter specced fully for 2wp fighting will do about that much damage if he is lucky. Ofc you have amazing stats and all, but without a +4 str belt, gloves of dueling and 2 +2 or more swords, then you would be significantly higher, even if you had used 20 or 25 point buy. So there is nothing to do for him but change the monsters accordingly, or simply put in some minions to make it harder to get to the boss.
Assuming we get exactly the same stats for my dual wielding rogue as Azreal's fighter, at level 12 I could have the following:
Human Rogue (APG Favored Class)
STR 14
DEX 19
CON 18
INT 14
WIS 16
CHA 14
Feats & Rogue Talents
(1st)Two Weapon Fighting, Toughness or Impr. Initiative (Human bonus), Finesse Rogue Talent (Weapon Finesse)
(2nd)Weapon Training Talent (Weapon focus Short-sword or dagger or whatever light weapon you desire)
(3rd)Dazzling Display
(4th)Offensive Defense Talent(APG)
(5th)Quick Draw
(6th)Resiliency Talent
(7th)Combat Reflexes, Assault Leader Talent (APG)
(8th)Combat Trick Talent (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
(9th)Shatter Defenses
(10th)Hunter's Surprise Advanced Talent (APG)
(11th)Combat Expertise
(12th)Opportunist Advanced Talent (APG)
Full Attack with normal weapons (ex. 2x daggers)
+12/+12/+7/+7
Damage
1d4+2/1d4+1/1d4+2/1d4+1 (lame huh)
After Hunter's Surprize (1/day, consider this as last resort)
+12/+12/+7/+7
Damage
1d4+2+6d6/1d4+1+6d6/1d4+2+6d6/1d4+1+6d6
While Flanking
+14/+14/+9/+9 (doesn't ignore dexterity from opponents AC)
Damage
1d4+2+6d6/1d4+1+6d6/1d4+2+6d6/1d4+1+6d6
After Dazzling Display
+14/+14/+9/+9 (opponent is demoralized and flat-footed against you because of Shatter Defenses)
Damage
1d4+2+6d6/1d4+1+6d6/1d4+2+6d6/1d4+1+6d6
---
Also (assuming min/max of successful sneak attacks minimum 1 attack)
+6~24 AC dodge bonus for one round.
Also 1/day if you miss while flanking your buddy may take an attack of opportunity as an immediate action
And once per turn you can also take an attack of opportunity because your buddy succeeded in attacking your flank-victim.
@nicklas Læssøe
No offense m8 but numbers do not lie.
Dual Wielding is effective only with huge flat bonuses per hit or with extra dices of damage
(1st)Two Weapon Fighting, Toughness or Impr. Initiative (Human bonus), Finesse Rogue Talent (Weapon Finesse)
It's sort of irrelevant to the meat of your post, but I don't think you get a rogue talent at first level?
Human Rogue (APG Favored Class)
STR 14
DEX 19
CON 18
INT 14
WIS 16
CHA 14Feats & Rogue Talents
(1st)Two Weapon Fighting, Toughness or Impr. Initiative (Human bonus), Finesse Rogue Talent (Weapon Finesse)
(2nd)Weapon Training Talent (Weapon focus Short-sword or dagger or whatever light weapon you desire)
(3rd)Dazzling Display
(4th)Offensive Defense Talent(APG)
(5th)Quick Draw
(6th)Resiliency Talent
(7th)Combat Reflexes, Assault Leader Talent (APG)
(8th)Combat Trick Talent (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
(9th)Shatter Defenses
(10th)Hunter's Surprise Advanced Talent (APG)
(11th)Combat Expertise
(12th)Opportunist Advanced Talent (APG)
This guy could be even better with Scout Archetype (auto SA when you charge or move 10ft.) Conrugan Smash to auto SA as a free action on the first hit.
Also dual wielding a Scimitar/Kukri would be better. Glove of Storing to free action Kukri away all the time. So you can two hand the Scimitar when you move or AOO. Once in a position to full attack, draw Kukri (free action), TWF full attack, put away Kukri (free action)
We need a t-shirt for gamers that says 'Crit Happens'. If you want to play with crits you have to know that the guys that hit hard (primary damage dealers) will crit sometimes. I had a whole adventure leading up to a big fight with a pit fiend, and on the first round the paladin smote crit him, knocked out most of the devil's health. It happens, the paladin felt awesome, we move on. If you are going to play a game with crits you have to know that sometimes it will make things anti-climactic.you mean something like this?
Link doesn't work.
To the OP:
No your damage wasn't overpowered, at level 12 with haste on you could have done much more damage with a vanilla falchion fighter.
The above statement is true when we are talking about the PF rules, your DM seems to have quite a few game changing house rules so i can't say if this damage is too much or not within your DM's rules.
|
|
This guy could be even better with Scout Archetype (auto SA when you charge or move 10ft.) Conrugan Smash to auto SA as a free action on the first hit.Also dual wielding a Scimitar/Kukri would be better. Glove of Storing to free action Kukri away all the time. So you can two hand the Scimitar when you move or AOO. Once in a position to full attack, draw Kukri (free action), TWF full attack, put away Kukri (free action)
I avoided Scout Archetype because you lose uncanny dodge/improved uncanny dodge which IMO is essential for a rogue thick into melee like a two-weapon fighting rogue (don't want to have the same treatment from other rogues do we!!!).
A pair of Kukris are also possible if you are going for Blinding Critical at higher levels, but the most feasable route would be with short swords and at high levels get a pair of swords of subtlety or a pair of sunblades.
@Dire Mongoose
Human Rogue favored class variant at APG gives you +1/6lvls Rogue talents, it's a hard trade instead of taking +1hp/level IMO but the faster you get the basic feats for two-weapon fighting the better.
|
Here's an example: Point-blank shot, deadly aim, Rapid shot, Manyshot, improved critical: longbow Smite Evil, Baseline +2 comp longbow, 18 strength, Bracers of greater archery 22 dex, 26 Cha. 12th level paladin.
+26(2 arrows)/+26/+21/+16 hit 1d8+28 (12 smite, 8 deadly aim, 2 bow, 1 point blank, 4 strength, 1 bracers of archery)19-20X3
Okay, now let's add some spells to that:Bless weapon: auto-crits evil creature, Divine Favor +3hit/damage, Righteous Vigor +1hit and damage per successful hit +1d8 temp hp/hit (max +4hit/damage 20hp), Haste +1 hit +1 attack during full attack, and Weapon of awe +2 damage.
End results:
+33(2 arrows)/+33/+33/+28/+23 hit 1d8+37 19-20X3
Without rolling damage, this gets more damage than you produced with several crits (190), so no, dual wielding isn't OP by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not even using weapon spirit, which could add 3 hit/damage or +3d6 damage. This is also likely to crit automatically, 2 times, before righteous vigor falls off once, and every single crit is 111 damage before dice. Heaven forbid this is against a dragon, undead, or evil outsider.
Admittedly you can't do this all day long, because of smite limitations, but the baseline still looks like this:
+19(2 arrows)/+19/+14/+9 for 1d8+16 19-20x3 (5d8+80, if everything hits)
Which is comparable, but I still have the option of deciding to hit more often, and I can always call on my weapon spirit which goes for a very long time at this level. The part that makes this the worst to deal with is I can do this from out of reach, either in the air, or from a castle. Either way I can snatch the life out of my enemies from the safety of being out of their reach.
While it crits less often, crits mean more with this build, and stats like that are easy to get by 12th, if you rolled well, went with epic points, are abusing the magic item creation system, or have a GM who doesn't know the value of money.
Anyways, we started the fight and i went up and full attacked it.
I crit twice, and hit and got 2 normal hits.
I guess no one noticed this...
You can't take a move action and full attack. That may have made a difference.
Anyways, we started the fight and i went up and full attacked it.
I crit twice, and hit and got 2 normal hits.
I guess no one noticed this...
You can't take a move action and full attack. That may have made a difference.
that really wasn't the point of the post. i moved up and next round full attacked it.
The damage done by dual wielding is balanced by the need to make a full attack or loose more than half your damage. I don't find full attacks to be all that common (ymmv) If you're moving around you're bound to loose out on some damage at least, which will make up for you going to town if your opponent is dumb enough to stand next to you.
The damage sucking if you move is not a problem, at least not any worse than what a two hander faces.
If you are a 2hander and you move you get 1 standard attack (whose damage blows vs your full attack)
If a two weapon warrior it's not an issue since you can make a primary/offhand attack+rend from level 9.
If another class (say a TWF ranger, rouge, cavalier) use the glove of storing trick and two hand when you move.