The rogue in my game wants a pair of boots of expeditious retreat (with a continuous effect, now the ranger (who's a GM himself) doesn't like that idea very much and the rest of the party doesn't much care.
Now, if I'm costing this right it comes up to only 4,000gp, is that right? It just seems like so little, and that's only my first question.
The second question is how would you other GMs deal with it, would you allow it or not and why?
The rogue in my game wants a pair of boots of expeditious retreat (with a continuous effect, now the ranger (who's a GM himself) doesn't like that idea very much and the rest of the party doesn't much care.
Now, if I'm costing this right it comes up to only 4,000gp, is that right? It just seems like so little, and that's only my first question.
The second question is how would you other GMs deal with it, would you allow it or not and why?
there a very important line in item creation which basically says the rules are just guidelines for pricing and you should try and find a similar item and follow its pricing over the generic rules where possible.
he lemme find that rule for ya
here it be
"Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls."
In other words GM trumps equations for price
for your specific example
Boots of Striding and Springing
Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot feet; Price 5,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
These boots increase the wearer's base land speed by 10 feet. In addition to this striding ability (considered an enhancement bonus), these boots Allow the wearer to make great leaps. She can jump with a +5 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks.
notice a mere +10ft bonus is already 5'500gold
Found this:
Magic Item Gold Piece ValuesMany factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
KEWL, this is great info to have, thank you Phasics, I'll have to look a little more closely at other items then, something else that hit me is this question, is there something that says a spell with a range of personal cannot be made into an item?
Found this:
KEWL, this is great info to have, thank you Phasics, I'll have to look a little more closely at other items then, something else that hit me is this question, is there something that says a spell with a range of personal cannot be made into an item?
Magic Item Gold Piece ValuesMany factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
yes and no
range personal spells can't be made into potions.
but there's no restriction on having them in say a wondrous item.
Although again be wary because personal arcane spells are often quite powerful but are tempered because the mage can only cast them on himself.
If the fighter can suddenly get access to a personal mage spell that syngerises with his martial powers its worth alot more to him than to other characters. For example magical arm band of Giant Form II
not so useful for a mage, but Huge and big STR CON buffs for a Fighter with a boatload of combat feats is brutally powerful
The noobie GM thanks you kindly for all the great advice, Phasics, I'll probably block that idea, and just offer him the boots of striding, maybe make it a little more powerful for some more gp...
Yar.
Also note that the Boots of Striding and Springing ALSO gives you a +5 comp bonus to Acrobatics. That on it’s own is worth 2500 gp of the price.
Also, if you determine that a competence bonus to a skill and an enhancement bonus to movement are "different", then the lower cost has a +50% increase. This actually puts the +10ft bonus to speed at only 2000 gp.
+30ft to speed but no competence bonus to a skill (according to the guidelines) via continuous ER would cost 4000 gp.
That actually seems about right. However, your GM may still want to ad hoc it a bit higher (Say, +50% to 6000 gp) simply due to the fact that speed increases also increase your Jump checks. A pair of Boots of S&S gives you a +4 bonus to jumps due to speed, with the comp bonus brings jump checks to +9. Boots of ER would give you a +12 bonus to jump checks. Even without the comp bonus, they are still slightly better than the Boots of S&S (and thus, my personal ad hoc cost increase).
Just my thoughts.
~P
Also note that the Boots of Striding and Springing ALSO gives you a +5 comp bonus to Acrobatics. That on it’s own is worth 2500 gp of the price.
Remember, the +5 comp bonus to Acrobatics checks is ONLY for jumping, not a flat bonus for all Acro checks.
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A good rule of thumb is that if a spell has a range of personal the price of a item that simulate it and is usable by anyone (i.e. without class restriction) should be multiplied by x2 or x3.
Another good rule of thumb is that spells with an instantaneous or fixed duration (for an example of the second kind of spell look True Strike) should never be the basis for a item with a permanent effect.
Both rules aren't "perfect" but they are good starting point. You would surely make less errors following them that using the magic item construction rules as written, especially for wondrous items.
Taking away a item after you have allowed it is hard, so it is better to err on the side of caution when allowing new magic items.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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The noobie GM thanks you kindly for all the great advice, Phasics, I'll probably block that idea, and just offer him the boots of striding, maybe make it a little more powerful for some more gp...
I'd also compare the effect to boots of speed which increase speed as per haste, but also grant the other bonuses of haste. The boots run 12000, and only work 10 rounds a day (which is often enough to use in most rounds of most combats in one day, at least in the games I play).
What your rogue player likely wants them for: flanking. He wants to be able to run all the way around an encounter to get behind the bad guys without needing acrobatics. This is not terribly powerful, it might save the rogue some skill points, but he'll still want acrobatics against things with reach.
I'd be likely to cost boots of +30 speed at about 11000 myself, but I always tend towards the more expensive end when pricing custom items - in game, I think of them as a prototype. Also, I tend to look at any custom item design with a wary eye - it's very easy to make an abusable item. If you are a new GM my suggestion would be to restrict your players to book items only until you feel more comfortable with things like assessing balance issues etc.
UMD Skill (you are Rouge) Wand of Expeditious Retreat 750 gp nuff said.
Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet.
So the plus to Jump is side effect of any movement type increse.
Bardianrian Fast movement,Monk Fast movement, Longstrider, Expeditious Retreat, Haste ect.
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The noobie GM thanks you kindly for all the great advice, Phasics, I'll probably block that idea, and just offer him the boots of striding, maybe make it a little more powerful for some more gp...I'd also compare the effect to boots of speed which increase speed as per haste, but also grant the other bonuses of haste. The boots run 12000, and only work 10 rounds a day (which is often enough to use in most rounds of most combats in one day, at least in the games I play).
What your rogue player likely wants them for: flanking. He wants to be able to run all the way around an encounter to get behind the bad guys without needing acrobatics. This is not terribly powerful, it might save the rogue some skill points, but he'll still want acrobatics against things with reach.
I'd be likely to cost boots of +30 speed at about 11000 myself, but I always tend towards the more expensive end when pricing custom items - in game, I think of them as a prototype. Also, I tend to look at any custom item design with a wary eye - it's very easy to make an abusable item. If you are a new GM my suggestion would be to restrict your players to book items only until you feel more comfortable with things like assessing balance issues etc.
+1. A per-day limit, or rounds-per-day limit are what really should be applied to such boots, rather than an always-on effect. This would also bring the price out of the clouds.
Boots of Rocket Speed
Aura faint transmutation; CL 1st
Slot feet; Price 5,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
Swift Action to activate. Usable 10 rounds per day.
These boots increase the wearer's base land speed by 30 feet. In addition to this striding ability (considered an enhancement bonus), these boots allow the wearer to make great leaps. She can jump with a +12 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, Expeditious Retreat, creator must have 5 ranks in the Acrobatics skill; Cost 2,750 gp
This give you choose +10 all time or +30 10 time per day.
Yar.
She can jump with a +12 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks.
Uhm... this adds (12*12*100)= 14400 gp to the value of the item. The +4 bonus to jump checks per +10' of movement past 30 is a racial bonus, and is inherent in the speed bonus itself. Calling it out like this, and making it a competence bonus instead, means that a person wearing those boots will have a +12 comp +12 racial bonus to jump checks, for a total of +24 before ranks and dex.
Even at a limited number of times per day (reducing the 14400 gp that the competence bonus adds), it is still way too cheap for what it does. That line should be removed.
~P
UMD Skill (you are Rouge) Wand of Expeditious Retreat 750 gp nuff said.
It is balanced by:
- 1 standard action to use;
- UMD roll.
Except the UMD roll is not a balancing factor. Someone who can cast Expeditious Retreat doesn't need the UMD roll.
Also, "I'm wearing Boots of Escaping!"
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Boots of Rocket Speed
Aura faint transmutation; CL 1st
Slot feet; Price 5,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
Swift Action to activate. Usable 10 rounds per day.
These boots increase the wearer's base land speed by 30 feet. In addition to this striding ability (considered an enhancement bonus), these boots allow the wearer to make great leaps. She can jump with a +12 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks.Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, Expeditious Retreat, creator must have 5 ranks in the Acrobatics skill; Cost 2,750 gp
This give you choose +10 all time or +30 10 time per day.
An item that gives you a speed boost as a swift action enough times that you never run out is effectively the same as a continuous effect item.
It seems unlikely most people will need 60' of movement for more than 10 rounds a day (usually it's on a charge or at the beginning of combat which is limited to 5-6 times per day).
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For what it's worth there are two really well made speed enhancing items in the core book. Adding another is pretty much overkill. My impression is people want to game the guidelines for magic item creation to make something that is better than the existing options.
Unless the item does something far more interesting than speed you up I would just turn it down.
Yar.
She can jump with a +12 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks.
Uhm... this adds (12*12*100)= 14400 gp to the value of the item. The +4 bonus to jump checks per +10' of movement past 30 is a racial bonus, and is inherent in the speed bonus itself. Calling it out like this, and making it a competence bonus instead, means that a person wearing those boots will have a +12 comp +12 racial bonus to jump checks, for a total of +24 before ranks and dex.
Even at a limited number of times per day (reducing the 14400 gp that the competence bonus adds), it is still way too cheap for what it does. That line should be removed.
~P
change it to Racial I miss that
Boots of Rocket Speed
Aura faint transmutation; CL 1st
Slot feet; Price 5,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
Swift Action to activate. Usable 10 rounds per day.
These boots increase the wearer's base land speed by 30 feet. In addition to this striding ability (considered an enhancement bonus), these boots allow the wearer to make great leaps. She can jump with a +12 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks.Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, Expeditious Retreat, creator must have 5 ranks in the Acrobatics skill; Cost 2,750 gp
This give you choose +10 all time or +30 10 time per day.
An item that gives you a speed boost as a swift action enough times that you never run out is effectively the same as a continuous effect item.
It seems unlikely most people will need 60' of movement for more than 10 rounds a day (usually it's on a charge or at the beginning of combat which is limited to 5-6 times per day).
That will vary greatly form game to game. Also Expeditious Retreat last 1 minute so think give you the full one minte worth of casting.
Also "Boots of Speed" give you 10 rounds as well. Very good for chase type scene. As far "Skill" bonus all pathinder skill item or magic do not make any sense or follow there on rules. Cause the did change the item that much to mach well with the new skill system.
UMD Skill (you are Rouge) Wand of Expeditious Retreat 750 gp nuff said.
It is balanced by:
- 1 standard action to use;
- UMD roll.Except the UMD roll is not a balancing factor. Someone who can cast Expeditious Retreat doesn't need the UMD roll.
Also, "I'm wearing Boots of Escaping!"
"The rogue in my game wants a pair of boots of expeditious retreat (with a continuous effect, now the ranger (who's a GM himself) doesn't like that idea very much and the rest of the party doesn't much care.
Now, if I'm costing this right it comes up to only 4,000gp, is that right? It just seems like so little, and that's only my first question.The second question is how would you other GMs deal with it, would you allow it or not and why?"
That was the give infomation So the some that cast was not realy part of the problem. If they can cast it.
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Here's the pricing we use in our group. Based on the Boots of Striding and Springing minus the springing part. We treat as an enhancement bonus, so no stacking with fast movement.
(# of 10 ft increments) ^squared x 2000.
+10 to speed = 2,000
+20 to speed = 8,000
+30 to speed = 18,000
+40 to speed = 32,000
+50 to speed = 50,000
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Believe I have a solution. There is an actual official slot-occupying wondrous item which can grant expeditious retreat, and we can use it to calculate a reasonable pricing for "Boots of Expeditious Retreat." Check the Ultimate Equipment Guide for the Pirate's Eye Patch.
Eye Patch, Pirate’s
Aura faint transmutation; CL 2nd
Slot eye; Price 2,600 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This black silk eye patch is adorned by a skull and crossbones worked in silver thread.
The wearer of this patch gains a +2 competence bonus on Swim and Climb checks. In addition, once per day, the wearer of this eye patch can gain the effects of either touch of the sea or expeditious retreat on command (wearer’s choice).
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Wondrous Item, expeditious retreat, touch of the sea; Cost 1,300 gp.
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So let's break this down using the Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values from the Core Rulebook. CL2 item, grants a pair of +2 bonuses to skill checks, and a single daily charge to activate your choice of two 1st level spells in a 24 hour period (expeditious retreat and touch of the sea), for a total cost of 2,600gp.
Of that cost, the skill bonuses are the easiest to factor out (2^2+2^2)*100 = 800gp. That means the remaining cost of the 1/day use of one of the two spells runs you 1,800gp.
It's a command item, which means a base cost of 1,800*Spell Level*Casting Level*number of daily charges/divided by 5 for having daily charges. Since it's including 2 spells, you calculate both separately, multiply one of them by 1.5 (the cheaper one if applicable), and add the two costs together. So:
Expeditious Retreat = 1,800*1st level spell*1st level casting*0.5 daily charges/5 = 180gp.
Touch of the Sea = 1,800*1*1*0.5/5 = 180gp.
Since they're the same cost, multiply either one by 1.5, which yields 270gp+180gp for 450gp. So clearly that's not how they calculated the value of the Pirate's Eye Patch. Perhaps they also factored in the length of the spell, even though that's only supposed to apply to continuous effect items? In any event, the total cost for the two spells is 4 times what it would be by just following TRAW. Let's call that the "premium" for using Expeditious Retreat or similar 1st level movement effects as the focus for a permanent magical item.
So to go with that logic, let's propose three different types of Boots of Expeditious Retreat - continuous spell effect item, command word item, and command word item with a non-consecutive duration (like the Boots of Speed, which don't require you to use the daily allowance of rounds consecutively).
Boots of Expeditious Retreat (Continuous Use)
2,000gp*1st level spell*1st level caster*2 (1 min/lvl duration spell)*4 for "Expeditious Retreat premium" = 16,000gp
Boots of Expeditious Retreat (charge or charges)
1,800gp*1st level spell*1st level caster* N number of charges per day*4 for the "Expeditious Retreat Premium"/5 for having charges = a cost of 1,440gp for every daily charge (1 minute), free action to activate, effect lasts for 10 consecutive rounds.
Boots of Expeditious Retreat (charge or charges, rounds need not be consecutive)
Use Boots of Speed as a further cost template for pricing the privilege of not having to take a haste/speed effect all at once in continuous duration.
Boots of Speed cost 12,000gp. It's a command item with 2 charges per day of a 3rd level spell, 5th level caster (the effect lasts for 10 rounds/day, haste is a 1 round/level spell, so for a 5th level caster, 10 rounds/day = 2 castings). 12,000gp cost is the result of the formula Base Cost(normally 1,800gp)*3rd level spell*5th level caster*2 daily charges/5 for being a daily charge item. For your normal command item, your Base Cost would usually be 1,800gp, as stated in the table. In this case, it's 2,000gp. So we can extrapolate that the premium for "non-consecutive rounds of effect" is adding an extra 1/9th (11.1% to the base price), and using 2,000gp rather than 1,800gp.
For non-consecutive Boots of Expeditious retreat: 2,000gp*1st level spell*1st level caster*1 daily charge*4 for"Expeditious Retreat premium"/5 for having charges = 1,600gp/daily charge, free action to activate, rounds need not be consecutive.
So yes, continuous effect is much more costly (16K), and is therefore less attractive for a lower level party (and a would-be munchkin). However, the daily charge(s) command item (1.44 or 1.6K) as a possible Boots slot item seems like an excellent choice for a low to mid-level character who doesn't have the cash to fork out for Boots of Speed.
To create a smell test for the math - consider the relative cost of creating a set of Boots of Speed which had a continuous effect rather than the 2 daily charges of the version found in the Core Rulebook. The base version costs 12,000gp, whereas Boots of Expeditious Retreat that worked the same way would have a cost of 1,600gp, so they cost 7.5 times as much. Continuous effect Boots of Expeditious Retreat are 16K, so continuous effect Boots of Speed should be in the neighborhood of 120K if the 7.5 multiplier holds. 2,000gp*3rd level spell*5th level casting*4 for having a duration of rounds level = 120K. Voila.