See math. A barbarian with a very good AC for his level and a substantial investment of resources spent, while raging, charging, and CAGM activated is auto-hit. You therefore don't expend any FURTHER resources upping your AC but rather invest in alternate damage mitigation. That's what he was getting at and that's 100% right. But it's also something a fighter should do.
My point was, if you don't get very good AC you can at least get a good AC.
On CAGM, you might be right, but auto-hit on while raging or charging?
Not all rolls are 11. Let's at least argue honestly here ;-)
Let's assume there are 4 fights in a day, and they each last 5 rounds. That's 20 rounds of combat. So the tipping point is when a Barbarian reaches 20 rage rounds he is basically raging whenever he needs to be. Assume 16 con and no boosts, minimum baseline for a melee. Barbarian gets 4+con at level 1, 2 every level thereafter. So at level 8 you do in fact have 20 rage rounds and are raging basically whenever you need to be. Not 17. Let's at least argue honestly here.
I did not say you hade to wait until level 17. Let's at least argue honestly here :P
As for rounds per day you need, true 20 might usually be enough (if you only use rage in fights), but not always. But at level 9 or 10 you probably have enough rounds to cover most fights. But you could use rage out of battle. SS if you need no smash things, intimidating glare, etc.
My my point was a barb can't rage all the time in all fight, not because rounds don't cover the number of round in 4 normal encounters, but because of other things.
A barb don't always know is up for a fight. He might be hit with a spell before he starts his rage. He might be attacked when slepping, etc, etc.
Spells like Calm Emotion, Waves of Exhaustion or Waves of Fatigue can Barbs really sad.
You might get into more fights during a day than normal one play session or you need to use your rage for other reasons.
But you have a point. If it's 8, 9 or 10 doesn't really change your argument. At level 8:ish you have enough rounds per day to rage in battle under normal contitions, so I agree you have a point. I also think you missed mine.
Yes, you can further enchant them. You have to figure out what the cost of the bonus is, which can be difficult (like for celestial armor), but once you have it, you're good to go.
==Aelryinth
This is actually a matter of some controversy. Nothing tells you how to do it, just like making custom magic items, so it's 100% at DM's discretion. This applies retroactively to your comments about Celestial Plate, unless celestial plate was published somewhere.
...a question about Rhino Hide - do you guys know if there has been any official ruling on if it gives the 2d6 bonus damage to all attacks on a pounce? Or just the first attack?
This is the reason why we also add the +2 hit to all attacks when pouncing. So, all attacks from a pounce are charge attacks and therefor should be modified by Rhino Hide.
Hmmm. This makes rhino hide extremely powerful. Especially for a druid with 4-5 attacks who is already carrying an amulet of Mighty fists - holy. I Think I might have to house rule that...
Deadly Stroke is kind of funny.
It's definitely the single best attack for a 2h guy if he's got a high multiplier weapon. It's kind of funny how it becomes a trade-off between using a weapon with a high crit range for crit feats, or high crit multiplier for Deadly Stroke.===Aelryinth
What?
Benefit: As a standard action, make a single attack with the weapon for which you have Greater Weapon Focus against a stunned or flat-footed opponent. If you hit, you deal double the normal damage and the target takes 1 point of Constitution bleed (see Conditions). The additional damage and bleed is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Where does a crit come into it?
Deadly Stroke merely Doubles all fixed damage from a single strike (including wpn train, gtr wpn spl etc.) and the base weapon damage. It does not modify extra dice and the extra damage is NOT multiplied on a crit.If you are specifically referring to the Two Handed Fighter's auto crit power I get you, but at level 11 when you can get it the crit mod should make no difference.
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This is the reason why we also add the +2 hit to all attacks when pouncing. So, all attacks from a pounce are charge attacks and therefor should be modified by Rhino Hide.Hmmm. This makes rhino hide extremely powerful. Especially for a druid with 4-5 attacks who is already carrying an amulet of Mighty fists - holy. I Think I might have to house rule that...
There is a big debate if the armor charge bonus work when you are shapechanged.
I am in the field that say that the armor effect is activated when you charge, so it is not a continous effect and it don't work when polymorphed.
Somebody asked what other builds/powers are good for Barbarians.
As mentioned, the Mounted Barbarian Archetype is really nice... Just like Polearms, you should be aware that there are drawbacks or limitations, but there are different means to mitigate those as well. A good feat to go with it is the Augmented Rage bit, which increases both Ragers' Rage Bonus... which includes the Morale bonus to Will Saves. Besides all the Feats that are good for Mounted Combat in general, of course. If you are from Lastwall, there is a good cavalry Feat that allows you to make non-straight Mounted Charges... I have a great concept for a Half-Orc Barbarian from Lastwall's region whose tribe became allied with the Lastwall armies, because the other Orc tribes moved against them... So the character would end up combined some of both barbarian and civilized Lastwall traditions.
I love the Pugilist Archetype. It's interesting because you put it's bonuses into either offensive or defensive bonuses to maneuvers. And even if you don't plan on being a Grapple specialist, it's Grapple-always-provokes-agaisnt-you is great for dealing with Grapple-specialist enemies and monster. (I've asked for feedback on whether the AoO it allows still applies DMG to the DC in addition to the stated +2 bonus, but have never heard an answer) Being treated as one size larger also means you may avoid more Grabs, although Paizo has seemingly upped the Size Limitation on Grab.
People discuss the huge saves of Superstitious, but it's definitely true, it can be a pain in the ass to deal with... No more Caster Dimension Doors you into the thick of melee Tactics, for one. But Barbarians have great options to deal with Saves apart from that. Besides the scaling Rage Morale Bonus, Clear Mind is awesome for one. Iron Will/Imp Iron Will are just insurance beyond that. So if you have some of those, and/or are a Dwarf possibly with Steel Soul, you will be very good in the Saves department. I already mentioned it in this thread, though it seemingly was ignored for not being suitably flamewar-provoking :-), but taking the Superstitious ARCHETYPE but NOT the Rage Power, can actually be very cool. By high levels you get awesome stuff like Blingsight amongst other cool powers.
Some people like the Fearless Rage, Internal Fortitude powers, giving you immunities to conditions. Those can be good, I guess I personally prefer Powers which give me more unique abilities, rather than purely passive immunities. At high levels you do end up with several levels where your Rage Power choices are wide open, so picking up immunities like this could be a good option. Good For What Ails you is an alternate approach to this, that goes well with the Drunk Archetype.
Again, at higher level, alot of powers that scale with level, become truly useful... Combining Guarded Stance, for example, can get Barbarian AC up to very signifigant levels along with Beast Totem Natural AC and possibly other sources
Knockback, and to a lesser extent, Knock Down, are great tools for any Barb. Use Knockdown on AoOs to prevent receiving subsequent attacks, for example (they already started their attack). Strength Surge is good here, along with Surprise Accuracy (in that order, take SS first)
Mighty Swing is definitely nice vs. high AC opponents and to make the most of lower Iterative Crits. Unexpected Strike is awesome too, allowing AoOs, and thus Knockback, against basically anybody who ENTERS the Barb's threat area, as well as vs. 5' steps. Great for not getting Full Attacked, although it's SOMEWHAT overlapping with CaGM once that is available (though Unexpected Strike helps you play a more defensive role w/ caster ally for example, rather than just working against attacks against you personally)
Guarded Life is a good one if you are worrying about dropping out of Rage at high levels immediatley losing all your Rage HPs along with whatever attacked you that round. I find this Power a better deal than Flesh Wound, whose escalating DC makes it less useful than you might think at first glance. Though if you are in a healing-lite party, Flesh Wound would become more useful IMHO. Flesh Wound is activated after the attack but before damage is rolled, so at least you know if it is a Crit or not. The main wording would seem to also apply vs. magical attacks, e.g. Fireball, although attack ROLLS are later discussed. I think non-rolled attacks would be eligible though. Perhaps FAQ material though.
Lesser Hurling is pretty underwhelming, though having a Ranged Touch attack option is nice, as is being able to use most any object as ammo... But I think it's follow up power, Hurling Charge, can be quite compelling... allowing a 2nd ranged attack as part of a Charge, and the ranged attack counts as a Charge Attack itself, is another way to maximize action economy... And having ranged options is always good for a Barbarian IMHO.
Reckless Abandon seems covered already...
There is a big debate if the armor charge bonus work when you are shapechanged.
I am in the field that say that the [Rhino Hide] armor effect is activated when you charge, so it is not a continous effect and it don't work when polymorphed.
That sounds very reasonable, and I would go by that ruling myself.
I would of course allow Rhino Hide Barding to be used, it just would require normal time period to don armor.| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I think I have just used a slightly different reading of Guarded Life (applying vs. HP loss from dropping Rage), though I can see how perhaps that isn't RAW... And not allowing it to apply vs. HP loss causing/springing from dropping Rage would make it a crappy ability indeed.
We've used a different reading, because the ability as written would otherwise be strange> it refences being at negative HPs while Raging, which isn't normally possible (though other abilities allow it of course, e.g. Die Hard). I don't know what other abilities allow that, but it seems odd to include wording about auto-stabilization, since Die Hard / Orc Ferocity already does that. FAQ/Errata issue?
For Flesh Wound, you just should figure out what attacks it will reasonably work against, because it would suck to waste your 1/rage ability to TRY and FAIL to mitigate the damage. (you don't know how much damage will be rolled until after you declare you are using the ability, but usually you can make a ballpark guess based on the creature attacking you) In any case, although it would be NICE to have it halve and non-lethalify some huge Crit, it doesn't really make sense to 'save' the ability for such an attack, since that would be the least likely to succeed, even with Barbarian Fort Saves. Generally speaking, it should reliably work against 25-30 dmg attacks, converting them to 13-15 non-lethal damage... Any healing you receive counts double towards normal damage and that non-lethal, keeping you at max HPs more easily.
Deadly Stroke is kind of funny.
It's definitely the single best attack for a 2h guy if he's got a high multiplier weapon. It's kind of funny how it becomes a trade-off between using a weapon with a high crit range for crit feats, or high crit multiplier for Deadly Stroke.===Aelryinth
What?
Benefit: As a standard action, make a single attack with the weapon for which you have Greater Weapon Focus against a stunned or flat-footed opponent. If you hit, you deal double the normal damage and the target takes 1 point of Constitution bleed (see Conditions). The additional damage and bleed is not multiplied on a critical hit.Where does a crit come into it?
Deadly Stroke merely Doubles all fixed damage from a single strike (including wpn train, gtr wpn spl etc.) and the base weapon damage. It does not modify extra dice and the extra damage is NOT multiplied on a crit.If you are specifically referring to the Two Handed Fighter's auto crit power I get you, but at level 11 when you can get it the crit mod should make no difference.
My apologies. I am indeed referring to the 2H fighter's level 19 ability of Devastating Blow, not Deadly Stroke. And while it is a Pounce Equivalent in most forms, it's still at level 19.
==Aelryinth
I completely agree that guarded life should be FAQ/Errata because as written it does not help at all. I think what happened is that whoever wrote this piece forgot the rules on non-lethal damage. They were thinking damage mitigation and keeping you up and going but forgot that all that non-lethal damage is just going to knock you out anyway.I think I have just used a slightly different reading of Guarded Life (applying vs. HP loss from dropping Rage), though I can see how perhaps that isn't RAW... And not allowing it to apply vs. HP loss causing/springing from dropping Rage would make it a crappy ability indeed.
We've used a different reading, because the ability as written would otherwise be strange> it refences being at negative HPs while Raging, which isn't normally possible (though other abilities allow it of course, e.g. Die Hard). I don't know what other abilities allow that, but it seems odd to include wording about auto-stabilization, since Die Hard / Orc Ferocity already does that. FAQ/Errata issue?
I think it could also have been a mis-understanding/glossing over of the order of operations in terms of WHEN Rage HPs are lost... That is what my group essentially did, since we never to my knowledge consciously decided that ´this ability sucks per RAW, so lets fudge when Rage HPs are actually lost´. That function would (if Errata´d) still be dependent on Raging, i.e. it wouldn´t work if you were never Raging at all, so I can definitely see why somebody(s) thought that the ´while Raging´ clause was appropriate.
For Flesh Wound, you just should figure out what attacks it will reasonably work against, because it would suck to waste your 1/rage ability to TRY and FAIL to mitigate the damage....Agreed. The last thing you want to do is waste it. A lvl 20 barb can with a little investment get a fort save of mid to high 20's while raging, so even a hit in the upper 30's on damage is still possible to soak, just not an automatic. Also remember that fleshwound gets exponentially better from 17 on. You can rage cycle and use fleshwound every round. Pretty powerful. In addition, an invulnerable rager has double their DR for Non-lethal, so at lvl 20 you have DR 20 against non-lethal. This combined with fleshwound means that if you can make the save you can completely soak a 40HP hit and take no damage what so ever every round.
This made me realize that this tactic can also work great against attacks which apply a special effect to you if they do any damage at all... i.e. Poison. I don´t think Non-Lethal Damage is enough to deliver a Poison, and even if it is, an Invulnerable Rager could very well negate it anyways. Fort Save Poisons probably aren´t that much of a concern anyways, but there ARE Will Save Poisons also (which stuff like Superstitious doesn´t apply to).
QUESTION: Would Magus Spell Strike´s be treated similar to Poison, i.e. they need to do HP damage for the ´rider´ effect to trigger?, or would the effect trigger as long the attack hit AC?
So far a very illuminating thread. I think it does support the point that the Barb capstone abilities are lacking!
In lieu of that there is a possibility for HalfElven Barbs [especially ] to get some proper capstones! The problem is that it requires fairly massive ability scores. I think that going 1/2 Elven to get Skill Focus Survival opens up the Orc Bloodline, via Eldritch Heritage, which is kinda nice.... Basically "double" rage at level 17 when the "Power of the Giants" Enlarged form kicks in and bonuses of +2 str at level 11, 15, and 19. The giant form is useable for 18 minutes at 20th level and would provide nice reach str and con bonuses! Drawbacks are Cha 17 required [meh] and three feats required [but even the +6 Str as an inherent bonus seems a nice payoff!] I dub the above build the "WarpSpasm Wager" [Paladins I would think would eat this up!, and also for generously statted Fighters...Eldritch Heritage= the new capstones lol]
Flesh Wound would seem to be protective against conditions and perhaps if lucky..some massive criticals. [Have your cleric friend give you a "Bit of Luck" !!! ]
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One of the issues with gaining improved Ability Scores via the Bloodline powers is that the bonuses are inherant bonuses - which means they don't stack with other inherant bonuses you happen to pick up from stuff like reading a Manual of Gainful Exercise. So, for all their seeming attraction (and the potential for colourful backstories), in the end such powers are basically just saving you some gold...
On the other hand, the fact the Dragon Disciple's Ability Boost feature grants untyped bonuses is one of the Prestige Class's big draws... but then you're no longer a vanilla Barbarian... ;)
On the other hand, the fact the Dragon Disciple's Ability Boost feature grants untyped bonuses is one of the Prestige Class's big draws... but then you're no longer a vanilla Barbarian... ;)
I made a very effective NPC villain based on that. Sor3/Bbn2/DD7. Raging strength in the 30s, 4th level spells including prot arrows and fly, and a keen fauchard. He butchered at least 2 characters before finally flying off. There were NPC archers that were SLOWLY eating through his prot arrows and when he flew away, of the 5 archers left, 3 managed to nat 20 him one round before he went out of max bow range and bring him down just enough that he died rage death. It was pretty epic.
Just as an aside, Bbn1/War2 or somewhere around there make darn good mooks. They have ACs in the trash so die in a swing, but you can't ignore then because they WILL hit you for a few damage. Human Barbarian 2 werewolves are also pretty brutal with the DR and claw/claw/bite/trip.
other than price, but its always better to have furious on a weapon for a barb than any other property. its +2 higher bonus when raging. by the time you can afford a +2 weapon you get a +1 thats +3 while raging, which should be most of the time.its a "patch" of sorts that is a weapon enhancement tax that all barbarians should have.
besides a +4 furious weapon overcomes any dr except /- in the game. including dr/epic since its a +6 weapon.
I agree furious is very god, but the glowes stack with a weapon enhancement and
A) at higher levels the enhancement bonus wil be more expensive than the gloves, eg. a +5 weapon and gloves is bettern than +4 furious and no gloves.B) DR isn't a big thing at really high levels. Most melee char will have a +3 + holy or +4 or +5. Then there is align weaon and bless weapon. Besided fighterc can pick penetrating strike feat chain.
C) There are no Epic games AP (as far as U know)). Most AP ends at level 16 +/- 1 level.
Buy sure, the furious weapon is very good, unless you for some reason can't rage.
Stuff having a duration, can be dispelled, and so on. Moreover, the plot could ask for them being alone sometimes. Is sad they can't.
The plot could ask for a barb to be asleep or be in a situation where she can't rage or whatever.
Perhaps fighters need some love, but I don't mind playing a char with some weak spots. The game isn't a PVP game after all. You are group of adventurers who help each other. It's a game you play with your friends, not something you do by yourself.
Reread the thread please. Consider that AOOs like the ones from CaGM are made with the full BAB, the same those from overbearing assault. And Reckless abandon can add a lot to hit. The only problem is AC, pointless vs casters, pointless if enemies dies quickly, less important since there are miss chances by items and spells.
The bonuses fighters have are always on and yes I know CaGM are made at full BAB,.I wasn't refering to CaCM, but to pounce and normal fullt attacks with interative attacks.
Besides you can't always use CaCG.Sure you can use feats and rage powers to add to hit. But there is a limit to all the rage powers and feat you can get. Fighters only need weapon focus, greater weapon focus and then he gets weapon traing for free and add the gloves and he is ready to go.
Fighters are my favourite melee class for a number of reasons. This does not mean that should not be fixed in what they are lacking.
I agree the fighter needs some more 'fighter only' feats. I don't like you have to pick archetype X to get ability Y. I think the core fighter need som more cool stuff. The problem with fighters are, they are not fun. The are far more boring than a barbarian or a paladin. They really lack stuff only the fighter can do.
May I ask why you like fighters?
As for the OP. I don't think the barbarian need to multi class. The class is fine as soon as you have all the rage rounds per days as you need. If you play high level games I guess you only need 17 level barbarian. You could then pick fighter levels or rangers levels or both or whatever.
Has anyone played a rage prophet? Are they any good?
Come to think of it.
Rage as free action + uncanny dodge + perception as a class skill makes the barbarian very good since she can activate her rage even before her turn. Obviously she needs to succeed with the perception check.
So trading away uncanny dodge for some archetype power is probably not good.
The plot could ask for a barb to be asleep or be in a situation where she can't rage or whatever.
being asleep is bad for everybody. And barring fatigue MAYBE, the barbarian will generally rage. Exceptions always exist, but my argument was that generally the Fighter cannot be left alone, barbarians and Paladins can.
Perhaps fighters need some love, but I don't mind playing a char with some weak spots. The game isn't a PVP game after all. You are group of adventurers who help each other. It's a game you play with your friends, not something you do by yourself.
I agree the game is not PvP. This is why my example was about a plot. And one thing is without weak spots, another is defenseless.
The bonuses fighters have are always on and yes I know CaGM are made at full BAB,.I wasn't refering to CaCM, but to pounce and normal fullt attacks with interative attacks.
Besides you can't always use CaCG.
assuming those bonuses are always on - say, the need of improvised weapons or similar stuff - that simply put them on par with barbs. And again, see reckless abandon. And witch hunter for bonuses to damage.
Sure you can use feats and rage powers to add to hit. But there is a limit to all the rage powers and feat you can get. Fighters only need weapon focus, greater weapon focus and then he gets weapon traing for free and add the gloves and he is ready to go.
Ok,but this does not address my points above.
I agree the fighter needs some more 'fighter only' feats. I don't like you have to pick archetype X to get ability Y. I think the core fighter need som more cool stuff. The problem with fighters are, they are not fun. The are far more boring than a barbarian or a paladin. They really lack stuff only the fighter can do.May I ask why you like fighters?
Because, barring problems I pointed out, I find them really awesome. I like the concept of a well trained, armoured disciplined soldier able to cut enemies in half, and take control of the battlefield.
BTW, I don't find them boring at all. They are a blank sheet you can use to draw on a big number of heroes. A deadly hearthless sniper, an archer of the royal guard, a cruel executioner, a mounted warrior princess, a versatile gladiator, a relentless bounty hunter trained in nonlethal weapons, a smart phalanx soldier, a mercenary veteran able to switch from a tehcnique to another.. they are all a bunch of feats away.
I blame the defenses and the feats don't scaling (sometime relegating fighters in 2-3 techniques at best) but the concept is awesome.
Come to think of it...
Rage as free action + uncanny dodge + perception as a class skill makes the barbarian very good since she can activate her rage even before her turn.
Free actions are not blanket usable off your own turn, only the ´speaking´ free action specifically allows that.
This is a good thing because it forces characters to ´commit´ to with which weapons/grip they are threatening with (off their turn).Free Actions
Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn . Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.
Cease Concentration on Spell
You can stop concentrating on a spell as a free action.Drop an Item
Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action.Drop Prone
Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
Do not construe this comment as suggesting that Barbarians are NOT very good ;-)
his makes barbarians and paladins well made, and fighters needing a fix.Fighters buy Gloves of Dueling.
Fixed.
The gloves allows bonuses to the fighter crappy saves or the ability to remove a condition? Because the problem of PF fighters is not the damage.
Lack of defense and of skills, on the other hand...
Seriously, did you read what I wrote previously?
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his makes barbarians and paladins well made, and fighters needing a fix.Fighters buy Gloves of Dueling.
Fixed.
The gloves allows bonuses to the fighter crappy saves or the ability to remove a condition? Because the problem of PF fighters is not the damage.
Lack of defense and of skills, on the other hand...
Seriously, did you read what I wrote previously?
Really? I need to explain this to you? Really? Dueling comes from the Latin word Dual. Dual means two, fighters have two hands, and a barbarian is only one man, two is better then one, ergo, Fighters are better then Barbarians. I just blew your mind there, didn't I?
On a different, less insane note, I have a CAGM/pounce/superstition barb that I am playing with a TWF who's well over wealth by level, and has crazy stats, and have had the chance to totally outdamage him, to out survive him, and amusingly enough make the save vs Mass Hold Person which he failed last week. I'm totally digging being the once and future combat king.
Really? I need to explain this to you? Really? Dueling comes from the Latin word Dual. Dual means two, fighters have two hands, and a barbarian is only one man, two is better then one, ergo, Fighters are better then Barbarians. I just blew your mind there, didn't I?
This is the best explaination I ever heard.
It seems to me that with the advent of Point Blank Master, a fighter's lack of pounce or similar ability isn't really an issue.
A level 5 archer fighter can full attack every round, even if they are stuck in melee. The only thing you lack is that you don't threaten. Armor spikes can fix this. Further, the archer can full attack at a range of hundreds of feet. How far is the barbarian's charge range?
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his makes barbarians and paladins well made, and fighters needing a fix.Fighters buy Gloves of Dueling.
Fixed.
The gloves allows bonuses to the fighter crappy saves or the ability to remove a condition? Because the problem of PF fighters is not the damage.
Lack of defense and of skills, on the other hand...
Seriously, did you read what I wrote previously?
Gloves of Dueling grant a fighter a +2 to his Weapon Training bonus. What do most "conditions" do? Subject you to a -2 penalty. Ergo, for 15k you effectively are ignoring all of those kinds of conditions...at least as far as att/dmg go. Protecting your weapon is an added bonus.
-- But not that committing "fighter heresy" by dipping out of "full BAB" for a level of cleric and the Community domain isn't an option or anything. Alternatively, stay full-BAB with two levels of paladin, and put to use a non-sacked charisma score.
Well... A fighter would not be worried too much about a -2 to everything condition.
Well a -2 to a poor will save kinda sucks ... So a fighter should grab a belt of strength, cause strength equals power, and power goes to those who have the will to take it, so a belt of strength adds to your will save.
Just bumping the thread.
Been here for a while Kai, just didn't want to post, hehe.
My opnion differs from most. To me, Barbarians should be way more damaging than fighters are, but that's the way the game is designed, so I can't do much about it.
And if the Barbarian NEEDS superstition, come and get me and the Beast totem it's not good as a class. There should be good options for all tastes, but there isn't. Now the fighter has those options, his defense for will save may be bad, but it's easily fixed.
That kind of brings up something I´ve mentioned before, but seems to get glossed over:
Barbarians WITHOUT Superstition, CaGM, or Beast Totem, are STILL very viable to play,
and the extra Rage Powers/Feats from not getting those Powers certainly have other useful things to be dedicated to instead. You don´t need those powers to win an AP or something, and other options let you be great in other areas.
I think you´re misunderstanding other people in the first place, if you think that anybody assumed Superstition was so good it would be taken by all Barbarians, and that this is the basis of their superior saves vs. Fighters: It isn´t, they have better Will Saves while Raging anyways, and their re-Roll options are better than Improved Iron Will (and stack with that anyways, if desired).
That kind of brings up something I´ve mentioned before, but seems to get glossed over:
Barbarians WITHOUT Superstition, CaGM, or Beast Totem, are STILL very viable to play,
and the extra Rage Powers/Feats from not getting those Powers certainly have other useful things to be dedicated to instead.I think you´re misunderstanding other people in the first place, if you think that anybody assumed Superstition was so good it would be taken by all Barbarians, and that this is the basis of their superior saves vs. Fighters: It isn´t, they have better Will Saves while Raging anyways, and their re-Roll options are better than Improved Iron Will (and stack with that anyways, if desired).
I understand what you are saying, and I agree to a certain degree. Problem to me is, Barbarians have more defensive than offensive abilities all in all, and they cannot (except with come and get me, and that's argument material) win in a fight against a fighter. That bothers me.
I love Barbarians, really, I do. But for instance the 2handed warrior archetype has abilities that scream BARBARIAN! And the barbarian has NOTHING comparable in damage and raw brute power with things like that, and I miss it.
I don´t agree that CaGM is ´necessary´ to win toe-to-toe vs. a Fighter.
(I suppose such a comparison would be a statistical comparison or whatever)
One can multi-class 2-Handed Fighter with Barbarian if you really want to.
Fighter Archetypes seems to be the ones based around specific Fighting Styles, so that would seem the normal way to do things if you want a ´2 Handed Barbarian´.
I don´t agree that CaGM is ´necessary´ to win toe-to-toe vs. a Fighter.
(I suppose such a comparison would be a statistical comparison or whatever)
Yeah it's statistical. Just take a look at the numbers and you will see, it's simply not possible for a Barbarian to win. (without some tricks and being build just for that, that is)
Now, another thing that bothers me A LOT is the fact that most of the barbarians neat tricks are used (once per rage) AND that they can ONLY be used while raging... He is not the Savage Warrior anymore, he is the "Need to be pissed all the time to be effective" warrior. No, I don't like that aproach. I would very much like the Barbarian to be good even when he is not raging, even if u had to make power choices to make it so, but I would like to be able to make those choices.
Good point. Barbs do more damage than fighters cause they can get more strikes via come and get me and pounce. Damage PER hit, nothing beats fighter (smite etc can, but not all day).
Xum, the point is that even if the fighter can deal more damage with a single hit, the barbarian puts himself in conditions able to bring him far more attacks.
Come and Get Me. Unexpected Strike. Overbearing Assault + Greater bull Rush. Pounce.
And with the supersition rage powers* + rage, I am not even that sure fighters deal more damae with a single blow, barring two handed ones MAYBE.
*since after a certain point, every monster met has some spell like or spell ;)
@Matt: they are rage powers.. hence thay are active during rage. IMHO APG has several good archetypes too. Invulnerable rager and Superstitious.
CaGM is good, but I think that one can design the barbarian around other concepts. You can stack natural attacks, and you can be very good with maneuvers too, without the relevant feats.
Xum, the point is that even if the fighter can deal more damage with a single hit, the barbarian puts himself in conditions able to bring him far more attacks.
Come and Get Me. Unexpected Strike. Overbearing Assault + Greater bull Rush. Pounce.
And with the supersition rage powers* + rage, I am not even that sure fighters deal more damae with a single blow, barring two handed ones MAYBE.
*since after a certain point, every monster met has some spell like or spell ;)
@Matt: they are rage powers.. hence thay are active during rage. IMHO APG has several good archetypes too. Invulnerable rager and Superstitious.
CaGM is good, but I think that one can design the barbarian around other concepts. You can stack natural attacks, and you can be very good with maneuvers too, without the relevant feats.
You can design a barbarian around other powers. That is certainly possible.
But you are not optimizing if you don't take Come and Get Me. Though at high level it becomes a fairly meaningless power. Come and Get Me has now become a nuisance for me as a GM. There are plenty of ways to counter it.
Superstition is one of the best high level powers since there are so many casters at high level or creatures with spell-like abilities and the like.
You said it is powerful but counterable.
But not everything at every time.
My point was not "barbarians are op", but "barbarians can get more attacks".
And again, don't understimete the superstition tree, damage-wise.
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I also think the Superstitious Archetype (which doesn´t require the Rage Power of the same name) is also amazing at higher levels, in terms of keeping you able to take relevant actions and function as an effective caster killer: Init bonus, Surprise Round Touch AC/CMD bonus, Low-Light and Darkvision (longer range if you already have it), plus Blindsight eventually. Question: Are there any Feats with Pre-Reqs of Blindsense/sight?
You can´t take Invulnerable Rager Archetype if you go with Superstitious Archetype, but I personally would rather have those abilities than DR=1/2level + minor elemental Resistance. There probably ARE some fights where that DR will make you or break you, but I feel like the Superstitious sensory and Init bonuses will help my Barb be able to act most effectively and decisively on a consistent basis, especially vs. high level casters and monsters with strong supernatural defenses against mundane fighter types. In a healing-lite party, I could see Invulnerable being very popular though, and that can go for PFS where you may not be able to expect consistent healing support. I mainly see it as one can always get a Stoneskin effect one way or another, while Blindsight is harder to come by. Of course, the DR has more continuous benefit across the whole level range, so I´m not surprised that people pick it as well.
Another Rage Power that has been mentioned briefly already is Unexpected Strike, which was really one of the best powers in Core (and why I felt the Core Barbarian, while thin on options, did have a Fighter-competitive melee path), since it allows you to interrupt anybody closing with you as long as they don´t have Reach ADVANTAGE (normally YOU need Reach advantage to take an AoO, in this case you just need to equal the Reach, and it works vs. 5´ steps as well - another great caster killer ability). That could work in combo with Knockback or other options to prevent getting attacked in the first place, similar to CaGM. And alot of Rage Powers in general let you access abilities that normally require several Feats to achieve, even if the effect isn´t exactly the same / the Feats have some advantages... Since Barbs have about as many Powers as Fighters have Feats, you can leverage this and effectively make the most of your Feats this way... Which is a good strategy apart from finding the ´uber-powered optimizer builds´, i.e. even without the uber-powers the Barbarian can be made a very effective combatant.
You can´t take Invulnerable Rager Archetype if you go with Superstitious Archetype, but I personally would rather have those abilities than DR=1/2level + minor elemental Resistance. There probably ARE some fights where that DR will make you or break you, but I feel like the Superstitious sensory and Init bonuses will help my Barb be able to act most effectively and decisively on a consistent basis, especially vs. high level casters and monsters with strong supernatural defenses against mundane fighter types. In a healing-lite party, I could see Invulnerable being very popular though, and that can go for PFS where you may not be able to expect consistent healing support. I mainly see it as one can always get a Stoneskin effect one way or another, while Blindsight is harder to come by. Of course, the DR has more continuous benefit across the whole level range, so I´m not surprised that people pick it as well.
In my experience the DR adds up quick and absolutely keep you from dying every single fight. It does come down to what you're fighting though. In the campaign I have my Barb in (Dark Sun) there are a lot of wild monster type creatures with pounce, so DR 5 might as well be fast healing 15. We also run around in the desert and invulnerable rager gets permanent Endure Elements. Not having a really high initiative isn't such a big deal since, with Superstitious, I can't get buffs once I rage. Going last or at least after the casters lets me get the best of both worlds.
Quandary, I meant for "Superstition" tree the Superstition + Witch Hunter. +1, +1/4 levels to damages versus creatures able to cast spells and spell likes meansalmost everybody at high levels.
Said this, good post and I agree 100%.