NOTE: This post is not Golarion-exclusive. I'm merely using it as an example.
It is generally accepted in most campaign worlds that the gods are, in point of fact, real. In some, the evidence is given through divine beings, clerical power, and mystical relics. In others, such as Golarion, the evidence is that they actually walk around and talk to people sometimes.
I'm wondering, in a world where the existence of deities is a matter of fact, rather than faith, where does that leave the humble atheist?
Can an atheist (defined as someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or gods) even exist in a world like this? I don't think so. But if he can't, can the word still exist? What does it mean?
As a starting example, I could see someone in Golarion that defines themselves as an atheist accepting the existence of deities like Iomedae and Cayden Cailean, whose ascension was due to the starstone, but denying the existence of some of the less "tangible" gods, like Sarenrae or Gozreh.
Discuss,
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
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Can an atheist (defined as someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or gods) even exist in a world like this? I don't think so. But if he can't, can the word still exist? What does it mean?
More strongly than your "generally accepted" statement, that at least some deities exist in fantasy worlds is a matter of definition rather than merely something supported by evidence. The GM creates a world. As part of that world, the GM says, "there are gods." Thus, there are gods. There might also be figures identified as gods by their followers who really aren't gods.
An atheist in a fantasy world can exist. He might not believe in the divinity of those gods who really aren't gods; in this case, he is correct. He might not believe in one or more deities who really are divine, in which case he is wrong. He also might not believe in any deities at all, in which case he is also wrong. In the cases he is wrong, he is mistaken or delusional. He might explain away the evidence as being due to something else..clerics are just casting a form of magic that is different than arcane, or their theory for the source of their magic is wrong in his eyes.
You can also have the situation where the GM describes a world with deities, but they really aren't deities. In such a case, the atheist is correct.
In any of these cases, the character can exist. What is probably of greater interest, at least in my eyes, is how others view the character and how he interacts with them.
Well, he is denying an objectively true facet of reality for him, so many would regard him a lunatic. In Golarion, for example, the gods are real, even if not directly observable.
It'd be like you or I saying, "Evolution is just a theory, therefore I don't believe in it," despite the fact it has been observed often on many different scales, and holds the same weight as the Theory of Gravity or the Theory of the Nuclear Strong-Force.
Another option is to recognise that the gods exist but refuse to believe they are anything more than powerful outsiders that have the arrogance to lay claim to aspects of the world as under their dominion.
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NOTE: This post is not Golarion-exclusive. I'm merely using it as an example.
It is generally accepted in most campaign worlds that the gods are, in point of fact, real. In some, the evidence is given through divine beings, clerical power, and mystical relics. In others, such as Golarion, the evidence is that they actually walk around and talk to people sometimes.
I'm wondering, in a world where the existence of deities is a matter of fact, rather than faith, where does that leave the humble atheist?
Can an atheist (defined as someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or gods) even exist in a world like this? I don't think so. But if he can't, can the word still exist? What does it mean?
As a starting example, I could see someone in Golarion that defines themselves as an atheist accepting the existence of deities like Iomedae and Cayden Cailean, whose ascension was due to the starstone, but denying the existence of some of the less "tangible" gods, like Sarenrae or Gozreh.
Discuss,
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
This was recently discussed and clarified in .another thread.
Wod not believe in your gods.
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As I said in the other thread.
In Ancient Egypt the Pharaoh was considered a God-King. The word Pharaoh more or less meant God-King meaning if you believed the Pharaoh existed you believed that someone that a “God-King” existed.
Now, obviously he wasn’t actually a God by any definition we would use, so if you didn’t believe in the divinity of the God-King you rejected his divinity and could be, for the age considered either an agnostic or if you took it to the level you believed none of the Gods of the time were actually Gods, an atheist.
Now let us move that conceptually to Golarion.
Aroden, Norborger, Ioemaedae and Cayden Caileen are all “Gods”. All were born as humans, one is a murderer, one is a drunk, one appears to have been killed and one seems impotent in her efforts to close the World Wound.
Maybe looking at this information, you decide that these aren’t “Gods” but just very, very, powerful beings, just as Nex, Geb, Tar-Bahphon (who killed a God if you remember) are all very powerful beings. But not beings that deserve worship any more than any other powerful being.
Now back to Ancient Egypt and the Pharaoh. The God-King is still called Pharaoh if you doubt the divinity of them, because that is the title. “God” is the title given to a group of powerful beings in the same way that Pharaoh is the title given to the God-Kings of Egypt. But my believing that Pharaoh’s existed doesn’t mean I believe in the divinity of them, just because the word means “God-King”
“God” is the word in the language used for immortal beings who can grant divine power to mortals. As was pointed out above, Demon Lords can be worshipped and can grant powers to followers as Gods can. But they aren’t “Gods” to those who do not believe they are anything more than really, really, powerful beings.
Now you are correct that they could be agnostic, believing that perhaps there is an omnipotent being overseeing even the gods that would meet the criteria they would use to identify a true “God”. Hell since you are familiar with the Gnostic concepts you could even take the approach that potentially “God” is all things forming a shared consciousness.
But if either were true, none of the “Gods” would be “God”.
If a monotheistic person were to appear on Golarion, they could easily conceptually reject the divinity of all of the “Gods” of Golarion, seeing them only as creations of the greater “God”. That person would not be an Atheist, but they would still not believe in any of the existing “Gods” divinity.
Being an atheist in Golarion is taking that concept, and removing the belief in a monotheistic God as well. To the atheist, these beings people call Gods are simply powerful outsiders. The argument could be that the fact that a mortal can become one of them only shows they are not truly the creators of the universe, and perhaps that is your definition of God.
It has been the definition of God in many (if not most) cultures.
An interesting but more feasible twist is one who believed in Magic but not the gods... "sure they can raise the dead, but its not really any mythical being, its just the studied application of Magic - and the power mad priests just aren't revealing how they manipulate it to us wise and deserving Wizards..." or along those lines
In my personal campaign world I'm writing, I use something similar to this idea. For example, clerics do not choose a deity at 1st level, but rather a "devotion." Devotions are connected to deities (which are not proven to exist), but the deity doesn't actually grant them the power.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
An interesting but more feasible twist is one who believed in Magic but not the gods... "sure they can raise the dead, but its not really any mythical being, its just the studied application of Magic - and the power mad priests just aren't revealing how they manipulate it to us wise and deserving Wizards..." or along those lines
In my personal campaign world I'm writing, I use something similar to this idea. For example, clerics do not choose a deity at 1st level, but rather a "devotion." Devotions are connected to deities (which are not proven to exist), but the deity doesn't actually grant them the power.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
Alternatively you might define athiests as someone who refuses to worship any gods (and who may or may not believe in their existence).
In short, they may know the gods exist and simply refuse to follow / worship any of them.Traditional atheism in a standard D&D / PF world is akin to being a "flatworlder" in ours. Difficult, rare and irrational.
I think in situations like this... you have to come up with an alternative theory about what these creatures are.
In a Forgotten Realms game I'm playing right now... I'm playing a massively powerful wizard (from Halruaa). He has very little respect for the established deities. He doesn't doubt their existance... That's downright foolish in the Realms. But he doesn't consider 'gods' to be THAT spectacular.
In his mind they are VERY powerful casters. They are more powerful than HE is... but it's a goal to achieve. After all, Karsus back in Nethril wanted to be god and cast a spell and TOOK the place of Mystra... If HE can do it... anyone can... and if Anyone can... then why are you 'worshiping' these things?
Golarion is even easier to disrespect them. they have the trial of the starstone (or whatever).. ANYONE can try to become a god. One guy got drunk and doesn't know how he passed the test... but BAMM God!!!
When 'anyone' has the potential to 'try' and become a deity, and the lucky few do... It would be like 'worshiping' politicians and celabrities in our world. SOME people do... but the 'athiests' don't see what's so special...
1} Clerics can worship a concept or principle and are granted spells. That refutes the necessity of gods being real.
2} Several entities referred to as gods are known to be humans elevated to great power. It is not necessary to venerate them or attribute them godhood if one doesn't wish to.
3} There is an ever-increasingly powerful ecosystem of creatures that are not gods. It is not irrational to extend the not-gods categorization upwards. The top of the food-chain doesn't need a special name.
4} It is possible to fail a Knowledge(religion) check.
I'm sorry, but isn't there an entire inner sea country where not only is atheism (or at least agnosticism) the norm, but is actually the law of the land.
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I'm sorry, but isn't there an entire inner sea country where not only is atheism (or at least agnosticism) the norm, but is actually the law of the land.
The Rahadoumi aren't atheists in the sense of not believing in the gods, or their divinity, they just want nothing to do with them, after holy wars ravaged their nation for many years.
An 'atheist' in the sense of someone who doesn't believe that the 'gods' exist, would be pretty much a whackaloon, in most of the D&D style settings.
One that disputes their being actually divine, would be more plausible, particularly in a setting like Golarion, where there are at least fives different sorts of 'gods,' from ascended outsiders (Lamashtu, Sarenrae), ascended mortals (Nethys, Irori, Urgathoa), bootstrapped gods who got their power from an artifact (Norgorber, Iomedae, Cayden), people who are gods because their dad / mom was a god (Shelyn, Zon-Kuthon) and 'old gods' (Desna, Abadar, etc.).
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Atheists do not exist because the culture of Golarion does not allow them to exist.
This is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I agree with it as a blanket statement. Culture is a learned set of beliefs and behaviors. Golarion doesn't have a monolithic culture, but rather has many different cultural belief systems. Cultural beliefs can, objectively, be false or inaccurate, although even so they will have meaning and influence motivations within that culture. What is interesting to me is that, while I view religion as entirely cultural in the RL, I'm not sure that carries over into a gameworld where deities objectively exist.
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Atheism is a fairly recent invention in our own world. Up until then, you'd be crazy not to believe in some form of divinity or Providence.
But I don't think there's anything special about Golarion that makes atheism less possible than on our world. Sure, clerics perform miracles in Golarion on a regular basis. But so do bards. And we all know bards are tricky people.
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Atheism is a fairly recent invention in our own world. Up until then, you'd be crazy not to believe in some form of divinity or Providence.
But I don't think there's anything special about Golarion that makes atheism less possible than on our world. Sure, clerics perform miracles in Golarion on a regular basis. But so do bards. And we all know bards are tricky people.
+1
And besides, the Iconic Wizard is an Atheist. So we know from that, that Atheists DO EXIST in Golarion.
The gods being just extremely powerful casters in the atheist's mind is probably the super easy road. As mentioned the Starstone makes this super easy to explain, and nothing says the individual can't believe that all the "gods" got their power from the stone and just no one knows. Granting power to clerics or creating worlds doesn't pose much of a problem either, as there are wizard spells that can do these things. (At lower level of effect, but these "gods" are more powerful than your average mage.)
The rough question in my mind is how the atheist goes about explaining the soul, undead, outerplanes, and other such things. Magic can be chalked up to a kind of science but a true atheist wouldn't believe in any of these things.
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Atheist etymologically means "without gods", so in this kind of fantasy world where the gods are manifestly real, it would make sense to use it as a term for someone who simply doesn't worship any gods. They don't deny their existence, but simply don't have any deity or deities they revere- I always imagined that was the case with Ezren.
One persons "God" is another persons "powerful outsider"
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I think it really depends on how you define atheism (and there are a lot of slightly different definitions in modern theology and philosophy). Take apatheism (pragmatic atheism) for example. "An Apatheist is a person who regards the question of the existence or non-existence of a God or Gods to be essentially meaningless and irrelevant." Such a person could easily exist on a world like Golarion.
By the way, we know from the Guide to the Multiverse (pg. 33) that there actually is a place for atheists in Pharasma's Boneyard, namely the Graveyard of Bones. No definition for the term atheism is given, but the fact that the Graveyard is huge seems to indicate that atheism isn't as rare as one would think in a world where gods walk the earth.
In a world where a one HD creature could easily be surrounded by 5 HD creatures that have the power to consistently fool it with spectacular powers, it may become jaded and skeptical that anything it sees or perceives is innately true. Add in an inadequate education, a secluded lifestyle, racial factors (only the dwarven gods are real!), and character flaws and you could easily have a partial, if not total atheist. Of course, the events of a campaign might break that philosophy pretty quickly or at least refine it.
look at it as if it were happening in the real world we live in.
theres gods. lots of them. and many people worship them and such. no one asks questions. they are very powerful, thus we define them as omnipotent and more powerful than anything in the universe. they can never die and were always there. they can do anything and nothing can stop them.
then one dies. people start to think maybe they arent gods but just powerful beings. maybe aliens. maybe theres still a god we just havent seen him yet. others would say maybe there are no gods and what the current "gods" promise us is a lie.
thus, atheism.
NOTE: This post is not Golarion-exclusive. I'm merely using it as an example.
It is generally accepted in most campaign worlds that the gods are, in point of fact, real. In some, the evidence is given through divine beings, clerical power, and mystical relics. In others, such as Golarion, the evidence is that they actually walk around and talk to people sometimes.
I'm wondering, in a world where the existence of deities is a matter of fact, rather than faith, where does that leave the humble atheist?
Can an atheist (defined as someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or gods) even exist in a world like this? I don't think so. But if he can't, can the word still exist? What does it mean?
As a starting example, I could see someone in Golarion that defines themselves as an atheist accepting the existence of deities like Iomedae and Cayden Cailean, whose ascension was due to the starstone, but denying the existence of some of the less "tangible" gods, like Sarenrae or Gozreh.
Discuss,
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
I assume there are young Han Solo types ("Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.") in any campaign world. They're either cynical or just don't have enough experience to know that the gods are a real force in the world.
I don't see why not. The wizard speaks some funny words and moves his hands, a ball of fire appears. The cleric says some funny words and moves his hands, the dead guy comes back to life.
Another tact would be that there are mortals and extremely powerful mortals. There are outsiders and extremely powerful outsiders, but nothing particularly special about them.
I'm wondering, in a world where the existence of deities is a matter of fact, rather than faith, where does that leave the humble atheist?
As it turns out, I wrote a Pathfinder Tales novel about this very issue. :D
As it turns out, I wrote a Pathfinder Tales novel about this very issue. :D
I'm wondering, in a world where the existence of deities is a matter of fact, rather than faith, where does that leave the humble atheist?
Nicely done!
Greg
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As it turns out, I wrote a Pathfinder Tales novel about this very issue. :D
I'm wondering, in a world where the existence of deities is a matter of fact, rather than faith, where does that leave the humble atheist?
I cannot wait, James!
And besides, the Iconic Wizard is an Atheist. So we know from that, that Atheists DO EXIST in Golarion.
I believe that the Iconic Oracle is also a Atheist.
I admit to not reading this whole thread but I seem to recall that in Planescape the Athar (a faction on Sigil) didn't believe in "gods". I think they just said they were just normal creatures that had reached incredible levels of power.
That same sort of philosophy would work in Golarion, where a few in living memory have reached apotheosis. You don't have to blithely claim that Iomedae doesn't exist...just say she's a regular Joe with lots of power and no more special than the blacksmith down the road.
M
First, just a side note, I'm not atheist, but I believe in freedom of religion (atheist is a religion in my opinion, at the very least it falls under religious freedom).
Now, as for an atheist in a fantasy world be it Forgotten Realms were the gods stop by for tea, or a more traditional world like Golarion, you still have room for atheism.
Now, arcane magic exists, you can try to deny it, but... the proof is there.
Divine magic also exists.. but... do clerics really get their power from the gods? After all, Golarion keeps the option of being a Godless cleric.
So, that leaves the gods. What is a god? I can claim I am a god, how can you prove I am not? Kill me? Gods can be killed, so that's not proof. There is in Golarion a guy who claims to be a god, is worshiped as a god, his clerics even have spells (as far as I know... they fall under godless clerics rules wise)... so IS he a god?
So, my point here is, what is a D&D god other than an extremely powerful outsider that has cool powers?
So, while an atheist can't deny they EXIST, that they are POWERFUL, they can easily deny they are GODS and worthy of worship.
As for Planescape, yeah... in fact even so much to the point that gods were not welcome in Sigil, and on the few occasions a god decided he was above that Sigil law, The Lady of Pain promptly showed up and showed him his spleen. If you decided therefore she was a goddess? Yeah, her soldiers show up and silence you. Violently. So, she's definitely atheist.
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I admit to not reading this whole thread but I seem to recall that in Planescape the Athar (a faction on Sigil) didn't believe in "gods". I think they just said they were just normal creatures that had reached incredible levels of power.
In that same vein, water does not exist. Just atoms of hydrogen which have acquired incredible levels of oxygen...
I would think it is absolutely possible. All major theistic world religions came about because somebody claimed to have talked to God. True or not, that's how they started. Back in the Dark Ages of Europe, 99% of the population believed in God, but I can just about guarantee none of them had direct experience of the divine.
The exact same situation applies in Golarion. There are beings with great power, and they grant some people miracles... but the average peasant has never interacted with them, and possibly never directly witnessed their power. (After all, even a 0-level spell costs more than most peasants make in a month!) They believe, because priests and clerics tell them it is true. Even if they do see acts of great power, well, wizards can do that. Godless clerics and druids can do that. Fey creatures can do that...
So what we should be asking is, why aren't there more atheists in Golarion?
(I'm always reminded of Discworld in conversations like this. Anybody who proclaims there are no gods get struck by lightning. The first practicing atheist was a golem - being made of clay, he was lightning proof!)
Incidentally, I once played an atheist in Eberron. He was a wizard/archivist/mystic theurge. He was convinced that divine power was simply another kind of arcane power, and the fact that people all over the world could channel it, regardless of conflicting beliefs, was proof for him.
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Another option is to recognise that the gods exist but refuse to believe they are anything more than powerful outsiders that have the arrogance to lay claim to aspects of the world as under their dominion.
This, I can go for.
Golarion has had living gods walking the earth within living memory (at least, if you're an elf or a dwarf), so denial of their existence is mildly absurd. More reasonable is the Rahadoumi approach - "the Gods don't deserve worship, they only cause trouble", or simple Deism - "the gods exist, they created stuff, they don't require worship".
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The exact same situation applies in Golarion. There are beings with great power, and they grant some people miracles... but the average peasant has never interacted with them, and possibly never directly witnessed their power.
I'm not sure that's true, or at least that Golarion may be inconsistently portrayed in different sources. Minor spoiler for Carrion Crown below:
Atheism (and, incidentally, any kind of -theism, of any kind) is fundamentally possible for anyone anywhere regardless of the world or proof, and even regardless of actual sanity, or lack thereof.
Quite frankly anyone can rationalize anything away, regardless of the world. I'll use three different tiers and worlds as examples
Eberron: Sovereign Host/Dark Six - no one has ever seen gods ever. The CLOSEST anyone ever gets is the incredible faith of their angelic servants... who also have never seen them. Magic comes from faith and will, not divinity, per se. And they might be dragons anyway. Alternatively, there's the silver flame... which is just a bunch of (relatively weak, actually) outsiders that all died at the same time to create a powerful seemingly semi-sentient binding force millennia ago... that seemed to fail anyway. Alternatively, again, there's the lich, who isn't divine. Or perhaps the big drunkard tree. Or perhaps you would prefer a bunch of lich-like elves (calls itself the Undying Court). Or maybe a non-sentient "universal force of positive energy". Or maybe your own ancestors (which only actually works for some elves, and then its iffy at best, unless your talking about the lich-like elves... in which case they're really old lich-like things). Easy to rationalize.
TL;DR - no gods, just the power of faith. That's the long and short of it.
Golarion/Greyhawk: (NOTE: Golarion is a bit more strict than Greyhawk, but both are similar enough that I figure it'll fly) Well, people've kind of seen them run around periodically, haven't we? But then there's people bandying about all sorts of "divine power" that don't really seem to fit too well with their chosen deity. Also there's convincing fakes. Besides, even if others've seen them, who's to say they weren't a consensual mass-hallucination? Or some super-wizards who use illusions to subtly channel and focus the energy of the world? One important thing to note: all deities actually grant the SAME SPELL LIST. Why? What is it about those spells, many of which can be found on OTHER spell lists? Many, many solutions to divinity's existence, in addition to knowing they're fallible and able to be destroyed... seems like a weak argument for their divinity.
TL;DR - "gods" are fallible and weak, and thus not really divine, and could easily be mass-hallucinations or other powerful magic at work, especially now that an artifact can 'create' them.
Faerun: Okay, well, granted, you HAVE to have a patron deity - and a "real" one at that - and you have to agree with their basic alignment, and you have to be within their general order of influence just in order to cast divine spells. Also, we've seen them. Also, also bad things tend to happen when one goes missing, usually for many people. But really, they're nothing more than faith-foci. Bottles that mortals pour the power of their faith into. It's really the mortals who are the "gods", because it's their faith that creates and destroys these supposedly omnipotent beings. Further, their existence can be doubted too. Perhaps it's not a facet of reality, but a fundamental flaw with mortality that without belief in a commonly-accepted faith focus a very specific subset of magic is inaccessible. Further, it's easy to conjecture - since mortals are flawed - a tendency to see things that aren't there might plague even the most rational mind. And deities can be faith foci because, secretly, all mortals share this singular, vast network of mental space to subconsciously "agree" or not that deities are real. This can explain away the deeply rooted sensation that even the atheist might feel when the "know" their wrong in their heart. No real deities there, but rather a fundamental flaw with mortal logic and mental process. Sadly, being aware of it doesn't help, as it's rooted into the deepest recesses of the mind and mental processes. Without faith, you just can't do it. The actual existence of gods is irrelevant. Which is good, because they're just consentual mass-hallucinations created by a subconscious hive-mind of faith anyway and only serve to allow us to access a specific subset of magic that if we weren't flawed we'd be able to get at anyway. Even things that are apparently gods are really this subset of magic expressing itself through this flawed mortal mental consciousness and reasoning.
TL;DR - mortals and their faith are the actual "divinity", and thus mortals (and faith) are the only thing worth "worshiping", the magic is restricted only due to a flaw in the fundamental mental process of the mortal mind.
Tl;DR - it doesn't matter how strict the rules, how regular the deity, or how sane the person... the will can choose to rationalize away anything that a person WANTS to rationalize away.
Very intelligent (rational) people are not always very wise. And the more you put into both intelligence and charisma, the less you have left over for wisdom, usually. This means that you'll have very smart, very charismatic people with a deep-seated ability to explain away everything within the confines of their own logic, which seems sound, as they have all the information, and they can convince others that they're right.
It also goes the other way. A world where divine magic doesn't work? It's all a test of faith!
In honesty, that's what it boils down to - the faith and conviction of the person. They can be an atheist all they want, if they believe strongly enough and are hard working enough to put their mind to it. No crazy necessary... just convoluted (and inaccurate) thought.