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Hi,
Alter Self gives you +2 STR if you take on a medium humaniod shape and +2 DEX if you take on a small humaniod shape.
Huh? So I go from being say a Medium human into let's say another human with lighter skin (different race) and I gain +2 STR, why? Conversely if I was say a Gnome and become a Medium human I gain +2 STR but do I lose the bonuses for being Small? A 16th Druid can have either +2 STR or +2 DEX all the time. Halfing becomes a Gnome and gets +2 DEX, etc, etc.
Something just doesn't seem right about this spell,
S.
Shape change spells in Pathfinder are balanced for the level of the spell and provide a physical appearance change with a set buff. Some of this was done for balance and some of it was done for ease of play.
So yes, you get exactly what the spell says you do and you can choose the appearance of the creature you are mimicking. You do not have to go back and remove any adjustments you have from your native race to make the math more complex.
It is magic and the spell hardens your muscle or makes you more agile. Try not to put real world logic to it and you will be fine. :)
Note that you only get the senses if the thing you are changing into has them. So, turn into a creature with darkvision and lowlight (such as a Dhampyr) then you get both senses, but you don't get scent, since they don't have those.
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Shape change spells in Pathfinder are balanced for the level of the spell and provide a physical appearance change with a set buff. Some of this was done for balance and some of it was done for ease of play.
So yes, you get exactly what the spell says you do and you can choose the appearance of the creature you are mimicking. You do not have to go back and remove any adjustments you have from your native race to make the math more complex.
It is magic and the spell hardens your muscle or makes you more agile. Try not to put real world logic to it and you will be fine. :)
I thought that was the case but my 1e AD&D brain trained at deciphering Gygax's prose keeping whispering, "you are wrong, wrong..." in my ear.
So ALL adjustments to stats are stated in the spells (in general) and I shouldn't be searching for greater meaning?
Bit of a hit for 'rule realism - meaning size adjustments are ignored', but much less book keeping. I can live with that.
Cheers,
S.
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Note that you only get the senses if the thing you are changing into has them. So, turn into a creature with darkvision and lowlight (such as a Dhampyr) then you get both senses, but you don't get scent, since they don't have those.
Thanks. That bit I got, just the static stat adjustments got me thinking. In the future I'll refrain from thinking.
:)
Note that you only get the senses if the thing you are changing into has them. So, turn into a creature with darkvision and lowlight (such as a Dhampyr) then you get both senses, but you don't get scent, since they don't have those.
+1
You DO need to pay attention to the "other stuff" like movement types, special attacks, etc. Those depend on what you are turning into as well as the level and limitation of your spell.
Note that you only get the senses if the thing you are changing into has them. So, turn into a creature with darkvision and lowlight (such as a Dhampyr) then you get both senses, but you don't get scent, since they don't have those.+1
You DO need to pay attention to the "other stuff" like movement types, special attacks, etc. Those depend on what you are turning into as well as the level and limitation of your spell.
Yep,
And one additional thing that most people forget. If you use Alter Self into something that has a swim speed of 15 and darkvision 30 feet, then that's all you get, you don't get it 60 ft darkvision and 30 feet swim. Those numbers are maximums, not hard amounts.|
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Note that you only get the senses if the thing you are changing into has them. So, turn into a creature with darkvision and lowlight (such as a Dhampyr) then you get both senses, but you don't get scent, since they don't have those.+1
You DO need to pay attention to the "other stuff" like movement types, special attacks, etc. Those depend on what you are turning into as well as the level and limitation of your spell.
Yep,
And one additional thing that most people forget. If you use Alter Self into something that has a swim speed of 15 and darkvision 30 feet, then that's all you get, you don't get it 60 ft darkvision and 30 feet swim. Those numbers are maximums, not hard amounts.
Thanks (to everyone).
So ALL adjustments to stats are stated in the spells (in general) and I shouldn't be searching for greater meaning?
Mostly. Note that the values listed in the spells are only valid for medium and small creatures using the spells. There is a table in the magic section (under the polymorph subschool description) that lists how the spell descriptions change for creatures who start off at sizes other than medium or small. Usually PCs are medium or small, though, so it rarely comes into play.
Would a character that normally has darkvision lose it if he alters to something that does not have darkvision?
Would a character that normally has darkvision lose it if he alters to something that does not have darkvision?
Short answer: Yes. A dwarf who turns into a Gnome gains low-light and dex, but loses the dwarven ability of darkvision.
However, if the character has non-racial Darkvision (due to magic item, class ability, etc.), then it would remain.
Would a character that normally has darkvision lose it if he alters to something that does not have darkvision?
Yes. Alter Self is a Polymorph school of spell. If you read the section on Polymorph in the Magic chapter, you'll find the following entry about 2/3rds of the way through.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.
Note that you get any natural attacks of the form you change into. This is listed under the Polymorph rules, not in the individual spells. So, if you wanted to, you could turn yourself into a Half-Orc with the 'Toothy' racial trait, gaining a bite attack. You just can't turn yourself into Harry the Half-Orc, your traveling companion, because Polymorph won't let you look like a specific person (although the rogue in your group would have a MUCH easier time making you look like Harry if you had polymorphed into a half-orc).
Note that you get any natural attacks of the form you change into. This is listed under the Polymorph rules, not in the individual spells. So, if you wanted to, you could turn yourself into a Half-Orc with the 'Toothy' racial trait, gaining a bite attack.
I'm not sure I agree with this. Can you expound on your logic that you can specifically choose to turn into Half Orc with a speicifc variant racial trait in order to get the benefit of that trait?
Obviously we get natural attack forms, but I'm not sure that should extend to Toothy. It seems like a corner case. Has this been addressed before?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Yes. Alter Self is a Polymorph school of spell. If you read the section on Polymorph in the Magic chapter, you'll find the following entry about 2/3rds of the way through.Ah, my bad. It's unfortunate that the spell itself doesn't delineate these types of things and you have to go read another section (which isn't referenced) to get more details.
How big did you want the book to be? ;-)
Note that you get any natural attacks of the form you change into. This is listed under the Polymorph rules, not in the individual spells. So, if you wanted to, you could turn yourself into a Half-Orc with the 'Toothy' racial trait, gaining a bite attack.I'm not sure I agree with this. Can you expound on your logic that you can specifically choose to turn into Half Orc with a speicifc variant racial trait in order to get the benefit of that trait?
Obviously we get natural attack forms, but I'm not sure that should extend to Toothy. It seems like a corner case. Has this been addressed before?
LOGIC :
Spell specifies you can turn into ANY humanoid. A Half-Orc with Toothy is a Humanoid. It is a racial trait. That makes it a natural weapon that is specific to a race (toothy half-orcs). You can't turn into a specific half-orc, but you can turn into any type of half-orc (just like you can turn into any type of human, white, black, yellow, etc). Since Toothy Half-Orc is a valid racial type for Half-Orcs, you can turn into that type of Half-Orc. You can't turn into Tommy the Toothy Half-Orc, but you can look like his cousin.
This would only apply to racial traits being switched out. You couldn't do it with feats or anything else, so I think half-orcs are the only ones you could do this with.
As to having been addressed before, it's plain by the reading of the rules. If you want a 'word of god' from the devs, you can FAQ it or add it to the thread about 'Things Devs need to handle in FAQ' thread.
Yes. Alter Self is a Polymorph school of spell. If you read the section on Polymorph in the Magic chapter, you'll find the following entry about 2/3rds of the way through.Ah, my bad. It's unfortunate that the spell itself doesn't delineate these types of things and you have to go read another section (which isn't referenced) to get more details.
They did it like that so they didn't have to duplicate the same one page section for each polymorph spell. Honestly it's the only sane way to do it. Can you imagine the issues that would creep in if you duplicated it for each spell? Make a change to Polymorph and it has to be errata'd 27 times.