I will be playing a Dwarven paladin in an upcoming campaign and I am wondering what would be better a 18 STR and 14 CHA or 16 STR and 16 CHA. Any advice would be great.
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If you're leaning toward a paladin that focuses more on their martial prowess than their divine abilities, the 18 STR may be more suitable. That being said, having a low CHA will weaken your saves, lower the number of times you can use Lay on Hands/Channel Energy, downgrade your spells, and lower your attack and AC bonus for Smite Evil, as Caius mentioned. If you think having an extra +1 STR mod. is worth the trade-of, go for it.
Charisma is fairly important but keep in mind as a dwarf you can take the Steel-soul feat. This brings your hardy racial bonus on saves to +4.
Being a paladin means when you're immune to fear and diseases the only saves you'll be making are pretty much ones where your hardy bonus comes into play.
What I'm getting at is that your damage and spells may be affected negatively but defensively with a decent con you'll be able to withstand almost anything that comes your way.
CHA is one of the two most important stat for nearly every paladin, i personally think that it is second to STR but i have heard good arguements that the CHA is first and STR second.
Now in the case of the dwarf (that takes -2 CHA) and assuming you use point buy then i have to advice against a 16 CHA after racial modifiers and that's because it means blowing a big amount of points for getting to 18. Instead i suggest a 16 before racial modifiers (which means 14 after).
Now if you don't use point buy and you rolled for your stats then you should give us the results of the rolling.
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+Str = exta damage every hit, highter to hit bonus for every thing.
+Cha = exta lay on hands, Smite Evil, Save bonus.
The exta hit and damage removes the smite evil, becous it effects every thing not just what you smite.
Exta lay on hands and Save Bonus. Is a +1 to hit and damage worth 1 exta lay on hands and a +1 to all saves.
First lay on hands 1D6 + 1D6 every odd level. Will one use of this ability make up for the exta to hit and damage from str. It can with the exta damage it can put you over the top on taking out a enemy.
Second Saves now this is the trickey one. +1 saves is a big deal untill you stat looking at most DC your trying to make.
Base saves no extas: Cha 14 Con 16(Your a Dwarf this should be a min.) Dex 10 Wis 12 not a big thing for a paladin or a dwarf to put points in.
Level 4 Fort 9 Ref 3 Will 7 Avarge DC for this level 15 for most strong abilitys or spells.
Level 10 (+2Cha Item +2 Resistance Item total cost 8,000gp total wealth by level 62,000gp)
Fort 15 Ref 8 Will 13 Avarge DC for this level 20 for most strong abilitys or spells.
One point dose change the save some but dose not realy push you over the 50% save for any thing. You are far beyond the 50% on fort and will. And close on the ref. Now if i uped the gp spent on the resist item it could be even highter but you get to the point of cost vs. effect. Spending less then 10k gp to get a +3 to all save and +1 Lay on Hands is well worth it. This leaves you with enough gold to buy the +4 Str item and have a 24 Str on the paladin at level 10. Somthing you will get more milage out of. In that it effects every swing you take not just when you smite.
Now depending on how your doing stats. If it's a point buy your better off with odd starting stat then a even. Total effect for level 20 is +1 mod but only if your DM lets you have a +5 tome. Over all effect is most games end some where betwean levels 12 and 15. Some go up to 16 but not meny. Starting with a 17 + 1 at levels 4,8,&12 = 20 +4 Item total 24 +7mod. Starting with a 18 18 +1 at levels 4,8,&12 = 21 +4 item = Total 25 +7mod. Now with a +1 tome puts you up to a 26. The problem is WBL 12 108,000gp cost of a +1 tome 27,500gp for +1 str mod. Level 20 WBL 880,000gp cost of a +5 tome 137,500gp. And thats if you find some one to make one. With them requireing CL 17th to make them. On Golarion that wold be a quest in it's self if there is even one out side of the players.
Thanks for all the advice. For clarification I am going to go with the Sword and Board type of play. Using the Shield to attack sometimes as well.
The full l;st of stats that I rolled were as follows before racial modifiers 16, 11, 12, 13 15, 18.
I will be the only melee character in the game. Unless you count the monk, and a fighter specializing in crossbows.
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I'd definitely go with 16 Strength, 16 Charisma. In my opinion, you don't need an 18 starting off to be competitive in Melee, and yes, the Extra Lay On Hands will help. A LOT. Remember, that's an extra 3.5 hit points per day on average, which can be used on other people if you need to, and can be used on yourself as a swift action, which makes it a viable method of in-combat healing. Even with the Dwarf Racial bonus to saving throws, you would get an additional +1 on top of that, which is just icing on the win cake. Compare all of the above to essentially a +1 to-hit and +1 damage, and I think it's pretty clear. But then again, I've never seen a scenario where the Strength Bonus being 1 higher would have saved the day, or ended an encounter early.
YMMV
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Dwarf Paladin
Str 18 (+1 at levels 8,12,16,&20)
Dex 12
Con 15+2=17(+1 at level 4)
Int 11
Wis 13+2=15
Cha 16-2=14
Or
Str 18 (+1 at levels 8,12,16,&20)
Dex 15
Con 13+2=15 (+1 at level 4)
Int 11
Wis 12+2=14
Cha 16-2=14
Any type of two weapon fighting hase the ability to do alot of damage. How ever with the ability points your starting with I don't see it doing you as much good as a two handed weapon. Over all the drop in HP is enough that I wold probly not go the two weapon fighting for weapon and sheild.
Over all you are making a melee character first and a paladin second. So Str is your primary stat that will never change. The problem with smite evil it works wonderfull when it works. That is most of the time but not all the time. Self healing is usefull but it's not enough to realy heal in combat out side the fact it's a free action to use on your self.
Seeing your stats i suggest (before racial):
STR 16
DEX 15
CON 13
INT 11
WIS 12
CHA 18
(first increase goes to CON and all other to STR)
After racial it's going to be:
STR 16
DEX 15
CON 15
INT 11
WIS 14
CHA 16
OR
you can go like this (before racial)
STR 18
DEX 15
CON 13
INT 11
WIS 12
CHA 16
(first increase goes to CON and all other to STR)
After racial it's going to be:
STR 18
DEX 15
CON 15
INT 11
WIS 14
CHA 14
And for feats i suggest: (it's kinda hard making a non-human sword and board without bonus feats but still)
Feats:
1st Two weapon fighting
3rd Improved shield bash
5th Double Slice
7th Power Attack
9th Improved Critical (Scimitar) or Shield Slam*
11th Shield Master
*(if you don't want to use a high crit weapon)
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Paladin's my favorite and though I'm usually in the DM's chair I have gotten to play a few Paladins alot the last few years.
My preferences may be different from the norm but I'm MUCH more likely to make CHA 18 / STR 14. And this works very well for me.
So I'd recommend you go both at 16 since you like STR.
I'd go for the 16's. You're going to get stat enhancing items later anyway, right??
The single most important thing I could suggest for you would be to take Faetouched Foundling (I think that's what it was called)... if you can, I can't recall if that had racial limitations on it. It gives you +2 hp of healing PER die of magical healing that you recieve. With Lay on Hands and spells you can outlast a LOT of damage by heal/tanking (my paladin has selective channeling and quicken channeling and not much can really hurt him).
At fifth level I can heal myself for 3d6+6 + 2d6+4 and still have a standard action left to use.
Pair it up with the new Antagonize feat to draw some hate and you've just become a damage sinc.
I know the two weapon fighting route looks amazing, but it's SO feat heavy. I'd go sword and shield, your damage will be fine. You're not going to throw out high numbers on damage like a barbarian or a fighter, but your numbers will be high enough when you smite and start gaining some magic items.
If you're looking to push out the damage some, I'd probably snag the Oath of Justice ( I think it was called?) that lets you sacrifice the ability to channel to gain additional uses of Smite per day. It's all up to you.
I'd keep my cha high (which is why i wouldn't play a dwarf paladin) because with faetouched foundling and lay on hands I essentially end up with Fast Healing...
Lvl2 1d6+2 (7ish)
Lvl4 2d6+4 (11ish)
Lvl6 3d6+6 (17ish)
Lvl8 4d6+8 (22ish)
Lvl10 5d6+10 (28ish)
Power Attack and Furious Focus are pretty much required for a two handed weapon damage build.
Since you are using a one handed weapon and a shield I would say STR is not as important. The 1.5X on a two handed weapon gives STR a slight bump in damage... but since you are already giving that up for a shield I think you will be happier with the higher CHA for a more defensive build and better smite evil ability.
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Thanks for all the advice. For clarification I am going to go with the Sword and Board type of play. Using the Shield to attack sometimes as well.
The full l;st of stats that I rolled were as follows before racial modifiers 16, 11, 12, 13 15, 18.
I will be the only melee character in the game. Unless you count the monk, and a fighter specializing in crossbows.
In this case there's absolutely no debate (not that there should have been one in the first place, honestly). If you're the only melee fighter and you're going sword and board then you MUST have the strength. If the enemies don't see you as a threat then they're going to walk right past you and kill your squishies.
Yeah, thanks again guys. I will probably go 18str and 16 cha. However with that in mind now I could go towards a 2h weapon. as everyone said the feats for sword and board are quite intensive.
What would people suggest for 2hw? Power Attack, is an obvious choice. What would others be, what do you think of the Vital strike feats?
There is Fey Foundling that Nathan suggested.
With 2-handed weapon you can consider Pushing Assault if you think that ability to push opponents back will be useful.
My currently homebrew Pally is lvl 7 and running 18 STR and 15 CHA (will be 16 next level)
Weapon of choice: Great Sword
Feats: Power Attack, Extra Lay on hands, Weapon Focus, Channel Smite, Step Up.
Next feat to get: Improved Crit ASAP
Thanks very much. You have given me some great ideas. Again, thanks.
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You are a dwarf and a paladin. It's entirely possible that you never fail a fort or will save after 2nd level. Ever. A paladin can be fine with no charisma bonus at all, and improves greatly with a 12-14 charisma. More than that is nice, but not necessary because they're not primary casters, or even secondary casters. Most other races really like the bonus to their saves. You probably won't even feel a difference of +/-1.
It sounds like your party is a little light on the melee. Sword and board is great if you want to block the enemy, but as mentioned before this is feat-intensive.
If you feel the party needs the damage, a two-handed weapon is pretty much the best thing in Pathfinder. You need power attack, furious focus, and cleave.
And that's really all you need. After you have that stuff, just power attack all the time, every time.