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Ok, I was cool with the summoner having to be 5th level to select the Improved Natural Armor evolution, even though the wording in the APG is kiinda misleading about this. HeroLab requires you to be 5th level to take it, which was how it came to my attention in the first place.
But now in UM the aquatic base form starts with Improved Natural Armor as one of its beginning evolutions.
So my question is this...do you have to be 5th level to take INA or not.
This also ties in to the Extra Evolution feat which has similar requirments.
If this has been discussed somewhere else, I apologize.
For whatever it may be worth, I've always interpreted "once for every five levels" to mean it can be taken at 1,6,11,16 NOT 5,10,15,20.
To me it's a bit like greater magic weapon -- always round down... but with a minimum of 1. So while anything below level 5 will be a fraction and therefore normally rounded down, due to the minimum of one you can still take it before 5th level.
Now you can't take it again until 10th level since you've hit the minimum of one and still have a fraction, but at least you can take it before 5.
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To me it's a bit like greater magic weapon -- always round down... but with a minimum of 1. So while anything below level 5 will be a fraction and therefore normally rounded down, due to the minimum of one you can still take it before 5th level.
Now you can't take it again until 10th level since you've hit the minimum of one and still have a fraction, but at least you can take it before 5.
See thats what I though too, but then HeroLab says that you can't take INA until yer 5th level. I know that its made by a different company but I'm guessing they work fairly closely with Paizo about stuff, and when I was talking with Wolf Lair about this they didn't seem to think that they had made a mistake with INA.
And since it's what I use to run my characters with it would be nice to know what the 'official' word is on this stuff.
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Also just to be clear on the exact wording of the stuff in question here...
Improved Natural Armor (Ex): An eidolon’s hide grows thick fur, rigid scales, or bony plates, giving it a +2 bonus to its natural armor. This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses.
Extra Evolution
Your eidolon has more evolutions.
Prerequisite: Eidolon class feature.
Benefit: Your eidolon’s evolution pool increases by 1.
Special: You can gain Extra Evolution multiple times, but only once for every five summoner levels you possess.
If your a 4th level summoner you don't have 5 levels of summoner so you can't take either of these, per RAW.
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By the wording you can only take Improved Natural Armour once per 5 levels of Summoner you have, so yes - you can only take it (at most) at levels 5, 10, 15, 20... The evolutions which work differently to this are written differently, and so far (as far as I know) there's been no indication that this was an error in any way.
The aquatic form gets it once for free... but doesn't get to otherwise ignore the limitations, so can only take the thing again at level 10 (then 15, 20, etc.)...
I'm pretty sure lots of people house rule this differently, depending on how over-, under-, or otherwise-powered they think the eidolon class feature is in the first place...
For what it is worth I think herolab has it right, once every 5 levels means 5 complete levels unless noted otherwise.
Depends on whether the "5" is a block of 5 or a completed set of 5. When I see "once every five levels" I'm thinking in terms of blocks of 5, (1-5), (6-10), (11-15), (16-20). You can take the power once for each block of five you have access to.
At sixth level you take it a second time reasoning thusly:
- I can have this once for every five summoner levels.
- I have more than five summoner levels.
- I can have this more than once.
I'd love to see this one answered officially because afaik it's not in the book and it's already come up twice in the last month.
Herolab is by no means official in any way shape or form -- they are independent of Piazo.
The most official view I've seen on this is from James Jacobs: 1,5,10,15,20.
Whoa! Overdark, did you check that link?
Herolab is by no means official in any way shape or form -- they are independent of Piazo.Sorry you feel that way but it's pretty official, since everything in it (Pathfinder related) comes directly from Paizo. I don't know how much more official you can get, I mean come on.
Nothing on that product comes directly from Paizo -- this has been stated explicitly by both the developers of the software and from the Paizo staff.
It is a good product, most of the time, but it is not, and has not been, official.
Herolab is by no means official in any way shape or form -- they are independent of Piazo.Sorry you feel that way but it's pretty official, since everything in it (Pathfinder related) comes directly from Paizo. I don't know how much more official you can get, I mean come on.Nothing on that product comes directly from Paizo -- this has been stated explicitly by both the developers of the software and from the Paizo staff.
It is a good product, most of the time, but it is not, and has not been, official.
You got a quote for that?
http://paizo.com/people/lonewolfRob/posts#tabs
There he states how they have an official license for pathfinder. An official license however is not the same as being 'directly from Paizo' 'official Paizo product' or even 'right and officially correct on all rules" -- especially considering the number of rule glitches the program still has.
Now is it a good program? Yes -- will it get about 90%+ of everything right? Probably -- but at the end of the day it is not the rulebook, it is not the official errata, FAQ, or 'referee' of what the rules are and are not.
As such it has no more standing than anyone else that isn't Paizo (including myself) to say what is or isn't the rules.
The very fact that JB gives a completely different answer than Herolab does also points out the fact that Herolab is not directly received from Paizo, and should not be treated as scanto-anything.
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The most official view I've seen on this is from James Jacobs: 1,5,10,15,20.
So according to James Jacobs
"2. Can an Eidolon take the Improved Natural Armor evolution twice by the time the Summoner is level 6? If not, at what level may he take it a second time?...
2) He can take Improved Natural Armor at 1st level, then again at 5th level, then again at 10th level, and so on. "
Thanks Gjorbjond i was pretty sure that was how it worked but that was an awesome link.
http://paizo.com/people/lonewolfRob/posts#tabs
There he states how they have an official license for pathfinder. An official license however is not the same as being 'directly from Paizo' 'official Paizo product' or even 'right and officially correct on all rules" -- especially considering the number of rule glitches the program still has.
Now is it a good program? Yes -- will it get about 90%+ of everything right? Probably -- but at the end of the day it is not the rulebook, it is not the official errata, FAQ, or 'referee' of what the rules are and are not.
As such it has no more standing than anyone else that isn't Paizo (including myself) to say what is or isn't the rules.
The very fact that JB gives a completely different answer than Herolab does also points out the fact that Herolab is not directly received from Paizo, and should not be treated as scanto-anything.
That link in no way backs your claim up. He never says he does not work with Paizo which is what I originally questioned.
The most official view I've seen on this is from James Jacobs: 1,5,10,15,20.
YAY!
That's exactly how I imagined it would be, but had absolutely no support for (all the other eidolon abilities work this way).
The most official view I've seen on this is from James Jacobs: 1,5,10,15,20.YAY!
That's exactly how I imagined it would be, but had absolutely no support for (all the other eidolon abilities work this way).
That makes the most sense to me, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was what was intended, but it's not what can be derived from the rules as currently written. Compare it to the stat boost text to see what I mean.
That link in no way backs your claim up. He never says he does not work with Paizo which is what I originally questioned.
No it isn't -- You asked for verification that Herolab was not an official rules source for pathfinder -- which was my original statement.
If you wanted to state something else you should have asked something instead of simply questioning verification of my statement.
The two are not the same thing.
As such I maintain HeroLab is not official for rules -- it is a good character creation tool, but is not a ruling body/platform or correct about such things all the time.
I never stated that HeroLab doesn't work closely with Paizo -- such would be nonsense, and you didn't ask me for proof that HeroLab doesn't work with Paizo. But working with someone and being an official source of rulings for them is as wrong as saying that a lawyer works with a judge and therefore is the judge and can make official rulings for the court.
Every evolution that requires a minimum summoner class level specifically states it in the last sentence of that evolution's description (ex: Energy Attacks, Large, Immunity, etc.) If an evolution doesn't have this level requirement, it's free game for a 1st lvl summoner as long as his eidolon meet the other requirements for it.
None of the 1 pt. evolutions have a level requirement.
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Minimum levels for selecting it are 1/5/10/15/20.
Minimum levels for selecting it are 1/5/10/15/20.
Thanks!
Thanks for clearing that one up!
Now... can the aquatic base form gain that Improved Natural Armour evolution again at level 1, or does it lag perpetually behind the serpentine base form in terms of (potential) total AC (just like the other two forms)? ;)
How is it lagging behind the serpentine form's AC?
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How is it lagging behind the serpentine form's AC?
Serpentine form starts with Dex 16 (+3 to AC), which can be increased via the Ability Increase evolution - the maximum bonus of which is based off of the form's base Ability Scores, rather than a flat base.
So a serpentine eidolon starts with +2 natural armour and +3 Dex AC (for a total of +5) before adding any evolutions.
Aquatic form starts with Dex 12 (+1 to AC), and a free improved natural armour evolution, granting its +4 natural armour for a total of +5 AC before adding any evolutions.
But since you can only take Improved Natural Armour so many times, the extra base Dex of the Serpentine form will always trump the others (aquatic included). Meaning...
Serpentine can start with the Ability Increase (Dex) evolution and Improved Natural Armour evolution - for a total starting level 1 AC of +8 (+4 from Dex, +4 from natural armour).
Aquatic can start with the Ability Increase (Dex) evolution but can't take the Improved Natural Armour evolution again - for a total starting level 1 AC of +6 (+2 from Dex, +4 from natural armour).
The other two are even further behind the serpentine form in this regards.
Unless the 'free' evolutions the base form gets don't count towards the maximum limits evolutions have.
Or...
Unless the +4 natural armour the aquatic form is listed with is before the free Improved Natural Armour evolution is added in (meaning it actually starts with +6 natural armour)?
Ah, I was just looking at natural armor, which is why I didn't understand your statement. :)
The aquatic eidolon's free INA evolution counts toward the limited number of times you can select the evolution, and its listed natural armor value includes the +2 from the evolution.
Yes, this means serpentine is going to have the best AC of any eidolon base form. But in the grand scheme of things, that AC difference isn't a big deal.