Savage Tide Hardcover

[Alephtau]

Been looking for an answer to this and have not seen it, so will ask...
Why has Savage Tide never been put all in one hardcover like Shackled City was? I really enjoyed Shackled City, and it was well received by my players and i see all over the message boards that people are still clamoring for the Savage tide hardcover years after the fact, so why has it not been done? I really want Savage Tide, but i really am anti-pdf, and as some of the issues are hard to track down, is there no other recourse for me to acquire this?

[Are]

I believe Wizards of the Coast owns the rights to all Dungeon/Dragon magazine content, so Paizo won't be able to make hardcovers of Age of Worms and Savage Tide without their consent.

[Matthew Morris]

Are (unfortuantely) has it right. You might find Serpent's Skull to your liking though.

[Alephtau]

Already have Serpents Skull, and Age of Worms and all the APs, just missed out on Savage Tide, and really late trying to acquire it. Now i am sad, but i shall continue searching for the issues i suppose.

[chavamana]

As someone who is lucky enough to have a friend who did get all of the Dungeons in hard copy ~ yep, I was super sad when I realized I couldn't but all of the Savage Tide Dungeon pdfs. Very sad.

But I also realize that it isn't Paizo's fault. (Even if I really wish that they had managed to release the last 3 Supplement pdf before the cut off)

[Lord Fyre]

chavamana wrote:

As someone who is lucky enough to have a friend who did get all of the Dungeons in hard copy ~ yep, I was super sad when I realized I couldn't but all of the Savage Tide Dungeon pdfs. Very sad.

But I also realize that it isn't Paizo's fault. (Even if I really wish that they had managed to release the last 3 Supplement pdf before the cut off)

I am told that the Age of Worms AP is all kinds of awesome, but I will never know that. :(

Yet another reason for may people's (including my own) Endless Hatred of WoTC/Hasbro.

[Kthulhu]

Lord Fyre wrote:

I am told that the Age of Worms AP is all kinds of awesome, but I will never know that. :(

Well, Age of Worms is availible in it's entirety as PDFs. Like others have suggested, you could then stitch all the PDFs together and have someplace like Lulu print a hardcover. I'm not endorsing this, as I too am unsure of the legality.

[Lord Fyre]

Kthulhu wrote:

Lord Fyre wrote:

I am told that the Age of Worms AP is all kinds of awesome, but I will never know that. :(

Well, Age of Worms is availible in it's entirety as PDFs. Like others have suggested, you could then stitch all the PDFs together and have someplace like Lulu print a hardcover. I'm not endorsing this, as I too am unsure of the legality.

How is it available in PDF form??

WoTC pulled all PDFs.

[Dragnmoon]

Lord Fyre wrote:

How is it available in PDF form??

WoTC pulled all PDFs.

Not for the Dungeon and Dragon Mags.

But the last few where never made into PDFs, But I think all of Age of Aroms are.

Age of Worms.

[Liz Courts]

Lord Fyre wrote:

Kthulhu wrote:

Lord Fyre wrote:

I am told that the Age of Worms AP is all kinds of awesome, but I will never know that. :(

Well, Age of Worms is availible in it's entirety as PDFs. Like others have suggested, you could then stitch all the PDFs together and have someplace like Lulu print a hardcover. I'm not endorsing this, as I too am unsure of the legality.

How is it available in PDF form??

WoTC pulled all PDFs.

We are able to continue selling issues of Dragon and Dungeon in PDF form that we produced during our tenure with the magazines. (See here and here.)

[Lord Fyre]

Liz Courts wrote:

Lord Fyre wrote:

Kthulhu wrote:

Lord Fyre wrote:

I am told that the Age of Worms AP is all kinds of awesome, but I will never know that. :(

Well, Age of Worms is availible in it's entirety as PDFs. Like others have suggested, you could then stitch all the PDFs together and have someplace like Lulu print a hardcover. I'm not endorsing this, as I too am unsure of the legality.

How is it available in PDF form??

WoTC pulled all PDFs.

We are able to continue selling issues of Dragon and Dungeon in PDF form that we produced during our tenure with the magazines. (See here and here.)

So Age of Worms runs from Dungeon #124 to Dungeon #135.

[chavamana]

Yep, you can even but the first issue of the Savage Tide as a pdf (which I happily did).

[NPC Dave]

I am trying to imagine what the art on the cover of a HC Savage Tide would and should look like...

It must be righteously awesome, like the final Dungeon Magazine cover...but not something that gives away what is going on, especially not the endgame, which is what re-using the final Dungeon cover would do.

Maybe a scene from the second adventure, which depicts the Savage Tide in the cover...or a scene with kopru on the Isle of Dread.

[Razz]

What angered me was Paizo was so lack in hurrying up with providing Forgotten Realms/Eberron conversion PDFs before the plug was pulled. They continued to publish the AP but refused to finish the conversions. I still don't understand why to this day. If they knew they couldn't, they could've made a big conversion PDF the month before it was unplugged.

[wraithstrike]

Razz wrote:

What angered me was Paizo was so lack in hurrying up with providing Forgotten Realms/Eberron conversion PDFs before the plug was pulled. They continued to publish the AP but refused to finish the conversions. I still don't understand why to this day. If they knew they couldn't, they could've made a big conversion PDF the month before it was unplugged.

They probably figured they had more time to do so. There was not really any warning. The "get your downloads now" thing was a big reason for the anger at the time. I remember the thread over on the WoTC boards was bigger than every thread that had anything to do with an edition war.

I guess since the magazines are still available for downloads WoTC changed the original stance on downloads for Paizo though. There was no time for a conversion though.

As for doing it now I don't think it is financially plausible, or even
legal.*

*Someone with more laws-fu than myself will have to take care of the legal part.

[Luna eladrin]

I think the Sea Wyvern should be on the cover, since she is almost a recurring NPC.

[Rezdave]

wraithstrike wrote:

Razz wrote:

What angered me was Paizo was so lack in hurrying up with providing Forgotten Realms/Eberron conversion PDFs before the plug was pulled. They continued to publish the AP but refused to finish the conversions. I still don't understand why to this day.

They probably figured they had more time to do so.

Paizo was well aware of how much ... or rather how little ... time they had left on the WotC license.

The answer to Razz's concern is very simple. The publishing industry operates on razor-thin margins, meaning staff is both minimal and over-worked. The web-supplements and conversion guides and so forth here always delayed coming out, and their priority was always "whenever we have time to spare".

As the End-of-License deadline loomed for the final few issues, not only was Paizo pressed to get them together, but they were also planning and developing Pathfinder and the related APs behind the scenes in order to continue providing a steady stream of content for gamers and revenue for themselves. They are a business, after all.

Clearly, lower-priority stuff had to be dropped as a result, and things like conversion-guides and web-supplements went by the wayside. Frankly, they are obvious choices to cut, as well, since everyone needs module content, but no one "needs" web-supplements and not only do few people need conversion guides, but frankly a half-decent DM can simply do it themselves, particularly when previous information and precedents are available (as well as contributions from web-forum members).

All this was discussed at the time by the Paizo staff, so I really don't see any cause for anger. It was very clearly stated that they simply didn't have the time, funding or man-power to provide these "extras" when they were desperately pressed just to get the core content together.

wraithstrike wrote:

I guess since the magazines are still available for downloads WoTC changed the original stance on downloads for Paizo though. There was no time for a conversion though.

As for doing it now I don't think it is financially plausible, or even legal.*

It has nothing to do with finances ... it's all legal.

WotC owns the D&D game and associated Intellectual Property. They develop their own material and publish it themselves. The Paizo store is simply a retailer for this content, and has no control over it, so if WotC decides to quite selling 3.5 Player's Handbooks and so forth then Paizo can't sell them. Because book retailers actually purchase hard-copy in advance from the publisher as a capital-outlay, they can continue selling their back-stock unless the publisher (WotC) decides to recall and "buy them back", which given the continued demand for the product no one really wanted to do (WotC didn't want to spend the money on a recall and retailers didn't want to lose almost guaranteed profits from hungry fans snatching up high-demand OOP product). The situation is no different than with car dealerships ... if Ford decides to quit building Mustangs, then once dealers sell what is on their lot (which they have actually already purchased from Ford then there are no more available regardless of the demand.

The situation with PDFs is different. Retailers don't "buy" PDFs at wholesale and then "resell" them at retail. Rather, they basically act as an agency for the publisher, getting a commission on each sale but don't have to "buy stock for their shelves/warehouse" in advance. That's a simplification, but you get the idea. So as a result, it is easier for a publisher to issue a Drop-Dead Date that they are going to end sale of PDFs and pull them. Since there is no already-purchased "back-stock" in the retail chain, once the Drop-Dead Date arrives, that's the end of it and there can be no more sales.

Finally, the situation with Dungeon and Dragon magazines was a third arrangement. As mentioned above, WotC continued to own the rights and IP associated with D&D, but they licensed these right to Paizo to develop and publish the magazines, rather than doing so themselves. As a result, Paizo, not WotC, was the publisher of these products. When WotC exercised their contractual right to pull/not-renew the license to Paizo for the magazines (names, IP, etc.) they could not stop Paizo as a retailer from continuing to sell existing stock of the hard-copy, but also could not prevent them from continuing to sell PDFs as the publisher of those PDFs.

Now, Paizo continues to sell existing back-stock of the magazines according to the economics of supply & demand. They also continue to sell PDFs of magazines they published themselves under license (and probably pay WotC royalties on those). It is possible (depending on the details of the contracts) they could go back and re-print old magazines they published themselves (Dungeon Issue 86+, IIRC), but never would because they don't have the time and the economics aren't there. However, with their license gone what they cannot do is develop new material (incl. "conversion guides") nor even re-format their old material to PDF form or composite hard-cover.

HTH,

Rez

[NPC Dave]

Luna eladrin wrote:

I think the Sea Wyvern should be on the cover, since she is almost a recurring NPC.

We can incorporate both our ideas together!

The scene the PCs never get to see at the cove, the Sea Wyvern in the forefront with the gem having just been unleashed, with Vanthus and Harliss in their somewhere and a partial of the second ship in flames and a shot of the shore with a massive melee under way.

The players would make the connection to the cover when they arrive at the cove but it doesn't contain a massive spoiler as it merely shows what everyone already infers after fighting the savage monkeys and seeing the situation from the bridge.

[Are]

Iggwilv should be somewhere in the cover, just because she's awesome :)

[NPC Dave]

Jonnyt posted his full Eberron conversion notes at one point and they were apparently pretty good but the link doesn't work anymore.

Conversion notes for Mystara were done by fans and can be reviewed at Pandius.com. I plan to add to it as I continue running this campaign...my PCs are inside the Lotus Guildhall but I have been supplementing with additional adventures so they are all 3rd level and I have beefed up the Lotus Dragons accordingly.

I love the Devilfish scouts!