I am thinking of playing a cleric necromancer in an upcoming non-good/evil campaing, but i am at a halt.
I have nearly never played a necromancer in 3.5 and never in PF, and from what i have heard some things have changed.
First of let me tell you what the rest of the party is likely going to be:
Dhampir antipaladin
human (?) monk (probably qinggong)
human (?) wizard (probably enchantement spec)
human (?) fighter (probably THW)
I have to say that the game won't take place in Golarion but in a homebrew setting but there is a lawful evil god undead (and stuff).
Now i was thinking of taking the lord of the undeath archetype, is that any good?
Now to main question:
What can you tell me about necromancy in PF?
See if you can get a steady supply of Onyx gems from any of your Dwarven friends...
Only thing I can suggest is to take a look at Ultimate Magic if your GM will allow it.
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Even Animate Dead, Lesser in UM is a 2nd level spell (that doesn't require a material component cost.) If you're starting from 1st, you may want to consider an Oracle of Bones. Then, though a revelation, can have one undead right out of the box, as opposed to waiting for higher spell levels (that you get as a Bones Oracle for free* anyways.
Oracles are outlined in the APG, in case you did not know.
*This does not include the Lesser spell mentioned above, as UM is far newer than the APG.
My 2cp.
I should have said so at the top but i forgot.
I can use any PF material, even crunch from golarion material (i am thinking about the necromantic affinity feat from inner sea guide), and yes i have ultimate magic but didn't really had the chance to go through the entire book.
Question:
Can i create variant zobies and variant skeletons with the animated dead spell?
Question:
Can i create variant zobies and variant skeletons with the animated dead spell?
Variant SkeletonsNumerous variant skeletons exist, such as those whose bones burn with an unending fire and those who drip with gore and reassemble themselves over time. Both of these variant skeletons can be created using animate dead, but they count as twice their normal number of Hit Dice per casting.
Question:
Can i create variant zobies and variant skeletons with the animated dead spell?
Variant SkeletonsNumerous variant skeletons exist, such as those whose bones burn with an unending fire and those who drip with gore and reassemble themselves over time. Both of these variant skeletons can be created using animate dead, but they count as twice their normal number of Hit Dice per casting.
ok thanks.
What about zobies, i want to say yes but i can't find it.
Question:
Can i create variant zobies and variant skeletons with the animated dead spell?
Variant SkeletonsNumerous variant skeletons exist, such as those whose bones burn with an unending fire and those who drip with gore and reassemble themselves over time. Both of these variant skeletons can be created using animate dead, but they count as twice their normal number of Hit Dice per casting.
ok thanks.
What about zombies, i want to say yes but i can't find it.
It is strange how the variant skeleton section is separated, but for zombies it is not at the bottom so it is easy to find.
The zombies require extra spells.Although capable of following orders, zombies are more often unleashed into an area with no command other than to kill living creatures. As a result, zombies are often encountered in packs, wandering around places the living frequent, looking for victims. Most zombies are created using animate dead. Such zombies are always of the standard type, unless the creator also casts haste or remove paralysis to create fast zombies, or contagion to create plague zombies.
What about Skeleton summoner and Skeleton master? Undead Anatomy for in combat stuff (III lets you go incorporeal ala wraith), the undead master cleric archetype from UM?
What about Skeleton summoner and Skeleton master? Undead Anatomy for in combat stuff (III lets you go incorporeal ala wraith), the undead master cleric archetype from UM?
I am not understanding the exact nature of the question.
@concerro
Thank you very much, now how do i create juju zobies (bestiary 2)?
@concerro
Thank you very much, now how do i create juju zobies (bestiary 2)?
The book does not say. I would use the same rules as the skeletal champion which basically puts it in DM territory.
If my players asked I would have them use Create Undead for the Juju zombies or Skeletal Champion. They would also not be bound to the creator so he would have to convince them to work with him as just like any other NPC. If he had the leadership feat I would allow them to just work for him though if the undead creation was the main cohort.
Another question:
From what i have seen, if try to animate dead a 5th level human fighter i only get an 1 hit die zobie or skeleton right?
Now what happens when outsiders are killed? Do their bodies dissapear? Do they stay? Does it matter how they got here (summon monster or planar binding)?
Also while we are on that, what happens to summon monsters and summon nature allies when they die (and they aren't outsiders)?
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Remember that Varisian Tattoo (Necromancy) gets you +1 CL, which means an additional +2 HD of animated undead. Animate Dead is a good spell to choose for a trait that raised your caster level with a single spell, if you can take one.
Summoned monsters disappear on death, no matter where they came from. Called monsters, on the other hand, stick around.
Remember that Varisian Tattoo (Necromancy) gets you +1 CL, which means an additional +2 HD of animated undead. Animate Dead is a good spell to choose for a trait that raised your caster level with a single spell, if you can take one.
What book is that?
More questions:
What creatures can i raise?
1) undead? (probably no but i have to ask)
2) elementals? (apperantly as zobies only)
3) oozes? (same as elementals)
4) outsiders?
5) abberations?
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What book is that?Remember that Varisian Tattoo (Necromancy) gets you +1 CL, which means an additional +2 HD of animated undead. Animate Dead is a good spell to choose for a trait that raised your caster level with a single spell, if you can take one.
Varisian Tattoo is in the Inner Sea World Guide. You also need Spell Focus (Necromancy) as a prerequisite, but that shouldn't be a problem. As for the trait, you might have to hunt; I can't remember where it was off the top of my head, but I've seen it in a couple APs.
@concerro
Thank you very much, now how do i create juju zobies (bestiary 2)?
There is one option - the demonic obediance feat (from Book of the Damned 2 - Hordes of the Abyss) will allow a follower of Orcus to create a juju zombie at level 16 (less than that if you take the demonaic prestige class). The power is akin to a slay living and teh zombie is not automatically controlled. It descibes the power as equivelent to a level 7 spell.
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More questions:
What creatures can i raise?
1) undead? (probably no but i have to ask)
2) elementals? (apperantly as zobies only)
3) oozes? (same as elementals)
4) outsiders?
5) abberations?
For animating dead, undead are out, elementals and oozes must become zombies, and outsiders and aberrations are OK.
Note that since a skeleton or zombie does not have any of the special attacks of the base creature, elementals and oozes are much less impressive. Furthermore, especially for elementals but also for outsiders, having a corpse stick around is tough. A called earth elemental I could see, but an air, water, or fire elemental might just disperse and not leave enough of a corpse behind. Since elementals are mostly summoned, they'd disappear upon death, anyway, typically.
For creating more powerful undead, they aren't templated forms, so it's much harder. Yes, ghosts and vampires are templates, but you can't make those. Talk to your GM if you want different types of these undead. Otherwise, oh, well, you'll just need to find humanoid corpses somehow. Such is the life of the necromancer.
Varisian Tattoo is in the Inner Sea World Guide. You also need Spell Focus (Necromancy) as a prerequisite, but that shouldn't be a problem. As for the trait, you might have to hunt; I can't remember where it was off the top of my head, but I've seen it in a couple APs.
Thanks.
I was asking about the feat, i think that the trait you are thinking is the magical lineage.There is one option - the demonic obediance feat (from Book of the Damned 2 - Hordes of the Abyss) will allow a follower of Orcus to create a juju zombie at level 16 (less than that if you take the demonaic prestige class). The power is akin to a slay living and teh zombie is not automatically controlled. It descibes the power as equivelent to a level 7 spell.@concerro
Thank you very much, now how do i create juju zobies (bestiary 2)?
Thank you, i will look into it.
Another question:
Can skeletons and zobies wear armor? Meaning do they get armor proficiencies?
Although skeletons and zombies keep the weapon proficiencies of the base creature, they lose all feats--thus, no armor proficiency. But check out the Skeletal Champion.Another question:
Can skeletons and zobies wear armor? Meaning do they get armor proficiencies?
Ok so that means, masterwork studded leather and mithril chainshirt for armor, and masterwork light shields and mithril heavy shields for shields for my undead minions.
Thank you.
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If you look at the example of the human skeleton on the paizo website: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/skeleton.html#_skeleton you will see that the skeleton is wearing a broken chain shirt giving it more armor.
There is also this statement: "Skeletons are the animated bones of the dead, brought to unlife through foul magic. While most skeletons are mindless automatons, they still possess an evil cunning imparted to them by their animating force—a cunning that allows them to wield weapons and wear armor."
Juju zombies are created with Create Undead, per Undead Revisited.
Same with Skeletal Champions.
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A JuJu Mystery Oracle(Original version, not the new/retcon version found in that religion/faiths book) can make JuJu Zombies earlier then anybody else, if your into the JuJu zombie thing, and coincidentally make awesome necromancers. You may, however, want to consider playing an arcane caster if your into necromancy and the campaign will go into high levels. Yes, you get animate dead far, far later, however, the benefits outweigh that drawback. First, you get a better spell list(wiz/sorc as appose to cleric), but more importantly, you also get access to some abilities that Clerics have no way to replicate.
One of them is the arcane-only spell, Blood Money. Ever wanted to get around the cost of needing black onyx for all your necromancy? This spell lets you do that. It's a VERY valuable resource for a necromancer to have, and clerics have no way to obtain it. Secondly, going arcane gets you another spell clerics have no way to obtain....dominate person.
Now, this may not be a necromancy spell, but it's another indispensable tool for a necromancer. Why? Because of the Undead Bloodline Arcana or Agent of the Grave prestige class. By taking a single level of Sorcerer with the Undead bloodline, or taking the Agent of the Grave prestige class(which is VERY good for a necromancer who wants to focus on minions), you gain the ability to use an enchantment spells on undead like they where the beings they where in life. What does this mean? You can -dominate person- undead. You know all those special undead that you want to make but can't like Vampires? Well, now you can just dominate them into your service. How about the stuff you make with create undead not being able to fall under your control? Just dominate them. Command Undead(the feat) is generally a VERY poor way to command intelligent undead as they get a new save EACH DAY against charisma, which is a typical DUMB STAT for 90% of cleric builds, at the least. Compair to dominate person, which gives them a save every some-odd WEEKS and AGAINST YOUR CASTING STAT and you can see which is the superior method for commanding intelligent undead.
Now, there is a nasty cheat around this if you REALLY want to be a divine necromancer, and that is to be a elf or half-elf and take the ancient lorekeeper archtype. This archtype lets you add a handful of arcane spells to your spells known at the cost of losing your mystery bonus spells. A ancient lorekeeper with the JuJu or Bones mystery could, theoretically, add both blood money and dominate person to their spells known. Take the Agent of the Grave prestige class(which is good for a necromancer anyway) and you now have most of the cool wiz/sorc only tricks. This can also be done to a lesser degree with a straight JuJu Oracle that doesn't take ancient lorekeeper. You can pick up -dominate person- through a revelation of that mystery, but sadly have no way to pick up blood money. While this option exists, I don't feel it's optimal as while the agent of the grave abilities are nice, your revelations will be weak to the point of uselessness, and the only alternative, dipping a single level of undead bloodline sorcerer, is not much better from an optimization standpoint.
Anyway...back on more general build advice
Back on topic, Varassian/Mage's Tattoo(Necromancy), as suggested, is a good start to boosting animate dead, but why stop there? With the right feats, you can boost Animate Dead's CL to ridiculous levels, which is actually a very viable strategy and I'll explain why later. If you want lots and lots of undead, boosting Animate Dead's CL is the way to do it, and there are several feats that you can use to do this.
Varassian/Mage's Tatto in Necromancy is a +1 CL to Animate Dead, as mentioned. For another +1 CL to Animate Dead, you have two options: bloatmage/bloodmage initiate and Deific Obedience to Urgathoa. Sadly, these both come with some drawbacks. Bloatmage initiate's drawback is quite harsh, imposing you with a perma-medium load, and is only really useful if you plan on taking the bloatmage prestige class, for which it is a prerequisite. The second has two drawbacks, both of which are pretty neglegable in most cases. You have to worship Urgathoa and you have to perform a daily obedience to her which involves eating a lot of really nice food(Oh, I have to pig out on some good food...that's SO HARD!). As a result, the Deific Obedience option is almost always superior unless you are aiming for the bloatmage PrC, and I'd talk to your DM to see if he could change the feat around to adapt it to his setting's undead God.
If you can't get this, though, no worries, there are other Cl boosters(Though I'd recommend staying away from bloatmage initiate unless you actually want to make a bloatmage.). Spell specialization will give you a +2 CL boost to Animate Dead, but requires at least 13 int. Int is usually THE dumb-stat of choice for most clerics and oracles, however, so if you want to go the animate dead CL pumping route remember to have enough int to qualify for this and another feat I'll be talking about later. Now, the next key feat is one that ANY Necromancer looking to make use of minions should take, it's called Undead Master. It does a lot of cool things for a necromancer character, but the most important one is that it treats the CL of Animate Dead as being for levels higher for the purpose of animating. Now, add in the next feat I'll recomend, Spell Perfection, and you will see just how ridicilous you can make Animate Dead with the right feat combo.
Spell Perfection doubles all set numeric bonuses added to the chosen spell by feats, this includes CL boosts from stuff like Varassian Tatoo and Deific Obedience as well as the animation CL boost from Undead Master. So, with spell perfection set to Animate Dead, the necromancer gets AT MINIMUM +14 to the CL of animate Dead for the purpose of determining the HD you can animate and +6 to the CL of animate dead for other purposes(such as your control pool) with the right feats. This comes from Varasian Tatoo(Necromancy)(+1CL/+2CL post spell-Perf), Spell Specalization(Animate Dead)(+2CL/+4CL post spell-perf) and Undead Mastery(+4CL/+8CL post spell-perf[only for animation, though). Add in the Deific Obedience and that goes to +16 for animation and +8 for everything else.
Now, you may be wondering, I can animate way more then I can control, so what is the point of all this? Well, the answer is that there is a "loophole" in Animate Dead that any necromancer worth his salt should know of and exploit. That loophole is this: when you create undead past your control limit, you lose control of the excess FROM PREVIOUS CASTINGS. However, any excess from your current casting of animate dead are not so released. Thus, if you cast animate dead while you have no minions, and excede the control limit, the excess undead you animate from that one casting REMAIN UNDER YOUR CONTROL. Thus, with proper minion-mannagement and disposal, you can actually control your excess undead animated. All you have to do is make sure you have no minions from previous casts of Animate Dead around when you go to animate more. This trick is how clerics where able to rival Dread Necromancers in army size in 3.5e. They would use the -deathbound domain power- along with desecrate to boost the amount of undead they can animate well above their control pool and then exploit this loophole in Animate Dead to keep their excess undead under their control. Pathfinder did not -do away- with this loophole, so any Necromancer wanting to make heavy use of minions can and should exploit it with the feats mentioned above and any other CL boosts they can get.
Anyway, if you have any other questions on PF Necromancy, feel free to ask. Necromancy is the one area of Pathfinder OP where I have a lot of expertise, so feel free to pry my brain if you like. :3