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So back when Magus was in playtest, I was unimpressed with Spell Combat and got to thinking: Would a Magus actually be better off ignoring it and focusing on archery? Now that Ultimate Magic has hit retail, I think it is time to dust this off and try again with the fully-matured class. I think the result is a powerful, well-balanced character that deals respectable damage per round and has a lot of combat support and out-of-combat utility choices from spellcasting. Better than the revamped Magus-- perhaps not. But a viable Arcane Archer-in-a-can? You decide.
Assumptions: Pathfinder Society (20 Point Build, 12 Level Progression)
Race: Let's do Human. Elf is very nice as well-- Increase your Wisdom to 10, drop Iron Will at 5, and trade 1 HP and 1 SP for some nice racials. However: No rapid shot till 3, and no archer trifecta until 5. That's a long time in PS.
Str 14 (5) Dex 18 (10, Racial Bonus) Con 13 (3)
Int 16 (10) Wisdom 7 (-4) Charisma 7 (-4)
Traits: +1 Will Save, +2 Initiative
Progression
@1: HP 10, AC 18 (Chain Shirt), Fort 3, Ref 4, Will 1 Skills: Acrobatics, Perception, Spellcraft, Kn (Arcana), Intimidate, Plus 1 more to dabble.
Feats @1: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot. If you can survive your first session and buy a strength bow, you are a fully viable archer. Your combat strategy is Full Attack (+4/4, d8+4), counting your PB and Arcane Pool enhancement bonuses.
@3: Precise Shot, Arcane Accuracy.
Arcane Accuracy isn't good for much, honestly (remember: 3+ of your pool are devoted to weapon powerups). Consider the Hexcrafter arcana, if you read that ability as kicking in at L3.
@5: Arcane Strike, Iron Will
Here's another reason why Arcane Accuracy isn't that great-- you can't use it with arcane strike. At this level with a vanilla +1 CLB (Str +2) you fire at +8/8 (3BAB+4Dex-2RS+1PB1Enh+1Enh) and deal d8+d6+7(Fiery+1Enh+1Enh+2Str+2ArcaneStrike+1PB)=15/shot
@6: Spell Blending (Gravity Bow, Charm Person)
Enlarge Person+Gravity Bow add an extra d8 damage for -2 to hit for a known boss fight. Charm Person is for Society objectives.
@7: Deadly Aim; @9: Manyshot, Hasted Assault (Or Spell Blending). The more melee you have, the less useful hasted assault is. Very good utility spells are available (Suggestion!)
@11: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization @12: Spell Blending (Or Hasted Assault). Awesome utility spells are available, such as Charm Monster and Lesser Geas.
Killing People at Level 12:
Max Damage Configuration: After Haste (Swift or AOE), To Hit 17x2/17/17/12, Damage 48/shot
You can trade up to 15 damage/shot for up to 8 bonus to hit, which would look like:
Max Accuracy Configuration: After Haste (Swift or AOE), To Hit 25x2/25/25/20, Damage 33/shot
Attack bonus Calculation: BAB 9 -2(RS)-3 (DA) +7(Dex 20, +4 Dex Item) +3 (Greater Magic Weapon) +1PB Shot+1WF+1Haste= +17x2+17/+17/+12 to hit. To increase accuracy: arcane accuracy (+3 to hit, -4 to damage, burns a scarce resource), arcane pool to +2 enhancement +d6 (+2 to hit, -5 to damage); don't use deadly aim (+3 to hit, -6 to damage).
Damage Bonus Calculation: 2d6(Gravity Bow) +3d6(Fiery+Shock+Frost)+2d6 (Holy)+d6 (Flame Arrow)+4 (Str)+2 (Weapon Spec)+4(Arcane Strike)+3 (Enhancement)+6 (Deadly Aim)+1 PB Shot= 8d6+20=48 damage per shot.
Caveats: A) You'll often give up damage for accuracy, especially against foes with some energy resistance. 40 damage/arrow is probably more typical. B) Flame arrow may be overkill, but I've had very few fights per day in PS. It will often last two fights. C) You either cast haste on the party round 1 or use Hasted Assault (-4 damage/arrow).
Life at Level 12
Your saves are middle-of-the-road and AC is nothing special, but touch is healthy with a +7 Dex bonus. HP 99 is also nothing special, but this assumes no +Con item. Prepping defensive spells is a good idea, obviously, but mostly your spells are intended for utility for you and the party. Your sustained damage is heavy and not particularly spell dependent, though you will spend many of your L1 slots on gravity bow.
Looks viable to me, but perhaps I'm overlooking some thing(s).....
EDIT: Statblock: Human Magus 12
Str 18 (14+4 Enhancement) Dex 24 (18+2Level+4 Enhancement) Con 13(+1 Level) Int 18 (16+2 Enhancement) Wis 7 Cha 7
HP 99 AC 27(+7 [Dex] +4 [Mage Armor] +4 [Mithral Buckler +3] +2 [Ring]) Touch AC 23 Flat-Footed AC 20 Initiative +9
Fortitude 14 Reflex 14 Will 12
Traits: Reactive, Indomitable Faith
Feats: PB Shot [H], Rapid Shot [C1], Precise Shot [C3] Arcane Strike [M5], Iron Will [C5], Deadly Aim [C7] Manyshot [C9], Weapon Focus (CLB)[C11], Weapon Spec (CLB)[M11]
Arcana: Arcane Accuracy [M3], Spell Blending (Gravity Bow, Charm Person) [M6], Hasted Assault [M9], Spell Blending (To Taste-- Charm Monster?) [M12]
Skills: Perception +9, Kn (Arcana) +19, Acrobatics +19, Intimidate +13, Spellcraft +19, Fly +15, Knowledge (Local) +11
BAB: 9. Max Damage Attack Sequence: 17x2/17/17/12, 8d6+20
Max Accuracy Attack Sequence (Burn 1 Arcane Pool): 25x2/25/25/20, 6d6+12
Assumed Equipment: Cloak of Resistance +3, Mithral Buckler +3, Ring of Protection +2, Enhancement Items (Str+4, Dex+4, Int +2), 2 Lesser Rods of Extend, Ring of Counterspells (Dispel Magic)
Assumed Buffs: Greater Magic Weapon (24HR), Mage Armor (24HR), Gravity Bow (24M, but L1), Flame Arrow (4HR), Haste (Cast in R1 while enhancing bow; 12R). All spells except Haste pre-cast and extended via rod.
I like that you broke down the progression, but would you be able to do me a favor and as a spoiler list his final level 12 stat block? It's hard for me to see what the final result is otherwise.
Pathfinder Society characters are 20 Point Buy.
KNS: Fixed, sorry. Built the character on 20 points and then somehow typed in 25 at the end.
BDK: Turns out I don't know how to do spoilers on this forum. Built a stat block.
Enlarge Person doesn't do anything good for archers.
Enlarge Person wrote: All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged
by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more
damage (see page 145). Other magical properties are not affected
by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s
possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly
returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile
weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged
items are not increased by this spell.
Callarek wrote: Enlarge Person doesn't do anything good for archers.
Enlarge Person wrote: All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged
by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more
damage (see page 145). Other magical properties are not affected
by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s
possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly
returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile
weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged
items are not increased by this spell.
I keep finding minor differences between 3.5 and Pathfinder. Interesting. The level 12 statblock doesn't assume enlarge person-- I decided that it would be unusual to have enough forewarning to cast two short-duration buffs (enlarge person and gravity bow).
Sorry if I was terse above. I'm not much of a number-cruncher/build critic, but the point buy thing jumped out.
Have fun :)
I thought most Magus powers specifically indicate they attach to melee attacks?
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
It seems like you're missing out on most of the decent features of playing a magus by going this route. You'd probably be better off by playing, say, a bard. Or an archer cleric. Or an inquisitor.
Matt Haddix wrote: It seems like you're missing out on most of the decent features of playing a magus by going this route. You'd probably be better off by playing, say, a bard. Or an archer cleric. Or an inquisitor. "All" you miss out on is spell strike and spell combat.... and in the long run you get an equal number of attacks (rapid shot+many shot vs. touch spell and bonus delivery attack), and don't have to burn touch spells to do it. Agreed that its painful to have dead class features, but I'm looking at what the character can do at the table compared to other archers, not compared to other magi, and am pretty happy.
On a pure taste basis, I view divine casters as different enough from arcane casters that the inquisitor and cleric are not equivalent (the cleric archer is, of course, probably more powerful). Bards .... an arcane duelist is pretty competitive with this guy, but bladethirst takes a standard action to turn on and doesn't let you stack more than d6 elemental damage. Plus you're a bard....
Where I think this guy shines is as a pathfinder society replacement for a ranged eldritch knight or arcane archer build. Wizard 5/Fighter1/Eldritch Knight 6 is great at level 12-- but for level 1-5, you're a wizard with strange feat choices. Fighter 5/Wizard 2/Arcane Archer, you're a suboptimal fighter for 5 levels. Even without spell strike/spell combat, the archer magus probably has more special abilities than either of those characters, even at level 12.
And this guy is a very solid damage dealer compared to pure martial builds:
By level 12, you reliably have 6d6+ bonus damage from spells, bonus feats, and class features (4d6 elemental from flame arrows and arcane pool; +2 from weapon spec as a bonus feat; +d4 from gravity bow via an arcana; +4 from arcane strike via a bonus feat). That's MORE bonus damage than a rogue, uncapped by range or the need for flat-footed targets. The rogue has piles of skill points and rogue powers, but you have piles of spells for utility and defense , including reliable buffs like greater magic weapon (for you AND the rogue!). Near as I can tell you exceed or match the damage of a single-classed fighter archer at comparable accuracy and have way more to do outside of combat or if you encounter the dreaded windwall.
Of course, you can always hedge your bets, drop one feat into weapon finesse, and take the black blade ACF for a free magic sword as a backup....
How is a Cleric archer more powerful than say, a Bard archer? The +5 to hit and damage bards can get seem much better than any cleric buff spells I've seen.
Thumbnail comparison for that level 12 archer fighter
To Hit 23x2/23/23/18/13
Damage d8+2d6+22 (33.5)
Analysis:
That's inferior to the magus in accuracy mode. If the magus can't afford to spam arcane accuracy, the fighter has the advantage, with +1 to hit, +.5 damage, and one extra shot at +13. Against very low AC opponents, the magus tears things up in high damage mode.
Assumptions:
Attack: BAB 12, Dex +7, GWF+2, WM+2, DA-3, GMW+3(Pearl of power and extend rod loaned to friendly wizard), +1 haste (boots of speed)-2 RS PB+1= 23x2/23/23/18
Damage: d8 Str+7 GWS+4 WM+2 DA+6 GMW+3 Holy +2d6=d8+2d6+22= 33.5/arrow.
Neglected Fighter Benefits
The fighter gets 5 extra feats relative to the magus and I've only spent 2 of them. Adding Imp Precise Shot and Point Blank Master will help the fighter's reliability; Vital Shot will make him less depressed when he has to move. Those 3 feats have to compete with level 4 spells at CL 12. The fighter will have slightly higher AC and HP.
Cheapy wrote: How is a Cleric archer more powerful than say, a Bard archer? The +5 to hit and damage bards can get seem much better than any cleric buff spells I've seen. I assume you mean Inspire Courage (+3 competence at level 12). The AOE benefit is of course awesome. But selfishly, compare to:
Quickened Divine Favor: +3 luck to hit and damage.
AND: Heroism Sub-Domain power: Allies (faq says this includes me) get +2 morale bonus to hit and damage, 12 rounds/day
NET: +5 to hit and damage for me, +2 for the party, in 1 round.
Or:
Standard Divine Power: +4 luck to hit and damage, extra attack (does not stack with haste)
But I meant that cleric archers are more powerful mostly because they are full spellcasters, and therefore have level 5 and level 6 spells like heal and harm at level 12.
Hmm, I guess I assumed people meant cleric archers were powerful due to their buffs, not their full spellcasting. I figured it went without saying that the full spellcasting was powerful!
Also, a bard at level 7 can very easily Haste, Good Hope, and Inspire Courage all in one round. That's +4 to hit/dmg, lots of saves, an extra attack, etc. I guess I just can't see a Cleric doing better than that, ever.
Cheapy wrote: Hmm, I guess I assumed people meant cleric archers were powerful due to their buffs, not their full spellcasting. I figured it went without saying that the full spellcasting was powerful!
Also, a bard at level 7 can very easily Haste, Good Hope, and Inspire Courage all in one round. That's +4 to hit/dmg, lots of saves, an extra attack, etc. I guess I just can't see a Cleric doing better than that, ever.
The cleric wont annoy the party with any obnoxious singing for one.
For two, how is he casting HAste and Good Hope in one round?
What makes cleric archers powerful is yes, full spellcasting, plus conservation of resources. You throw out a few area buffs like Blessing of Fervor on top of Bestow Grace of the Champion or Divine Power and go to town.
Essentially the same philosiphy of mr. bard but much more enduring and possibly much more explosive in the spellcasting department.
Rod of quicken metamagic, lesser. Which is basically a must buy for a buffing player anyways.
Cheapy wrote: Rod of quicken metamagic, lesser. Which is basically a must buy for a buffing player anyways. this is PFS, you don't generally get to buy magic items from anything but a very limited list depending on your prestige.
Why even bother with the Magus. The Magus powers don't mesh well with a Arcane Archer. The Arcane Duelist (Bard) does though. Bladethirst applies to ranged ammunition. The bonus feats are nice. You bow could be your bonded weapon.
voska66 wrote: Why even bother with the Magus. The Magus powers don't mesh well with a Arcane Archer. The Arcane Duelist (Bard) does though. Bladethirst applies to ranged ammunition. The bonus feats are nice. You bow could be your bonded weapon. As I see it:
Magus Archer:
Better spellcasting (Between Spell Blending, Spell Recall, and just a better spell list and primary casting score, Magus will hedge out the bard)
Martial Weapons (composite bow is all that is important, so elf bard counters this)
Bonus Feats
Better damage early in progression (again, elf bard not so much)
Arcane Duelist Bard:
Better at skills (higher base skill points and eventually jack of all trades, sign me up)
Spontaneous casting
Can cure a little bit
More useful class abilities/feats (not feats you would have taken given the choice though... sans arcane strike)
Can be more well rounded in ability scores (you won't get versatile, so no need to keep cha over 16)
I am not entirely sure what would be a better switch hitter archery/melee, but I would put my money on the magus. Also familiar is well worth taking, even just for someone to use your skills (umd) or aid action.
Aside from hasted assault, I don't see many amazing magus arcana to take as an archer (I wouldn't bother with arcane accuracy for the reasons described). So spell blending, familiar, and the pseudo swift metamagic would be my choices.
Just wanted to point out that Arcane Archer requires elf or half-elf. Not that Elf is a bad choice, the racial bonuses line up nicely and the Con penalty matters less for a ranged character. I was actually just thinking about a Magus/AA today, but wasn't sure how the damage math turned out.
Ignore my previous post, I didn't read close enough and thought you were actually going for the Arcane Archer PrC, not straight Magus.
TarkXT wrote:
The cleric wont annoy the party with any obnoxious singing for one.
The bard doesn't have to sing at all. In fact he doesn't require any ranks in any performance skill whatsoever.
Also many cleric buffs do not stack now -- all of the bard buffs do, and at minimum he can get out good hope, haste and inspire courage in two rounds tops.
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