Hello awesome community,
I'm looking for some advice on how to freshen my game and get my roleplaying fun again. I have been the main GM for my gaming group for quite a while now. We actually have three games going, and I run two of them. Now before you point the finger and say, "there's your problem," allow me to add that I haven't had a problem before now.
It's been lots of fun, and these games have been running for over a year. I enjoy a certain modest respect as a GM in my local community, as I run very deep, "writerly" sort of games, with great epic storylines. I also do a gaming blog at gamingmage.com, with options and rules I allow for my players. However, the focus here is on my campaigns. Here's a bit about them:
One game is a 3.5 game, set in an asian-themed campaign world entitled Idaro and making heavy use of the Tome of Battle: the book of Nine Swords as a starting place. This campaign got off to a rocky start, but due to the determination of one player (the same guy who's running the third of our games--a Kingmaker game), the game got back on its feet and started running smoothly again. It's a dramatic tale of high adventure with a crazy twist ending where the PC's discover cracks in reality and discover that they are merely sheets of paper and dice on a table in my living room.
Idaro is fun to run, yet I have struggled since the beginning with motivating the characters. It all began when their martial arts temple and masters were annihilated in a surprise attack, and they left to seek revenge. But no matter how I twist it around, or what clues I drop in their path, somehow they just aren't...motivated. They don't know where to go, or what to do. Sometimes they will skip over obvious plot hooks (I recently fell to the level of using the Old Man NPC, who got ignored and bypassed)! Other times things just don't...get going. It's like they're not fully inhabiting their characters, or at least I'm not fully understanding how they inhabit those characters. There's been LOTS of discusssion out-of-game about this problem, so that's no solution.
The second game is The Great Escape, or TGE for short. This is a pathfinder game with a snakey theme. The players have been dropped into a deeply religious world, and were required to start as a divine-themed class. They are inside a gigantic city called Nakash, known as "The Slithering City," which is an unimaginably huge mechanical snake crawling over the country and eating everything. They need to fight and negotiate their way from the tail to the head, dealing with snakes, monsters, and "the eaten," or the local people of Nakash.
As you might be able to tell, I did a lot of planning for this campaign and insured a literally linear storyline would occur. There are great heresies to uncover and terrible adventures to be had. However, in a way I'm finding a similar problem occurring. My inspiration is drying up, as is player motivation. I just don't know how to sell the next plot point or adventure...I just dropped something in the game that requires the players to backtrack and save somebody in the tail of Nakash, and then make it back to the belly of the beast. As soon as I put it in the game I knew it was a bad idea. I had just worked out all the monsters and adventures available in the belly. What do I do?
Finally, to conclude this medley of strange requests: I'm just tired. I just don't have that spark of imagination or excitement about the game that I used to. I need something to get me going again. I can't really take a break from GMing, because nobody will step into my shoes. If I step down, the good times end for sure. Yet I find myself being extremely irritable, overly annoyed about people taking too long, making decisions based on pique, and a host of other bad moves I never used to make.
Any thoughts will be deeply appreciated and I promise to respond to them.
-Moox
Hello awesome community,
I'm looking for some advice on how to freshen my game and get my roleplaying fun again. I have been the main GM for my gaming group for quite a while now. We actually have three games going, and I run two of them. Now before you point the finger and say, "there's your problem," allow me to add that I haven't had a problem before now.
It's been lots of fun, and these games have been running for over a year. I enjoy a certain modest respect as a GM in my local community, as I run very deep, "writerly" sort of games, with great epic storylines. I also do a gaming blog at gamingmage.com, with options and rules I allow for my players. However, the focus here is on my campaigns. Here's a bit about them:
One game is a 3.5 game, set in an asian-themed campaign world entitled Idaro and making heavy use of the Tome of Battle: the book of Nine Swords as a starting place. This campaign got off to a rocky start, but due to the determination of one player (the same guy who's running the third of our games--a Kingmaker game), the game got back on its feet and started running smoothly again. It's a dramatic tale of high adventure with a crazy twist ending where the PC's discover cracks in reality and discover that they are merely sheets of paper and dice on a table in my living room.
Idaro is fun to run, yet I have struggled since the beginning with motivating the characters. It all began when their martial arts temple and masters were annihilated in a surprise attack, and they left to seek revenge. But no matter how I twist it around, or what clues I drop in their path, somehow they just aren't...motivated. They don't know where to go, or what to do. Sometimes they will skip over obvious plot hooks (I recently fell to the level of using the Old Man NPC, who got ignored and bypassed)! Other times things just don't...get going. It's like they're not fully inhabiting their characters, or at least I'm not fully understanding how they inhabit those characters. There's been LOTS of discusssion out-of-game about this problem, so that's no solution.
In any story driven game, or deep roleplaying game, you have to follow the rule of 3. Namely, anything your players NEED to know to advance the plot or overcome a certain challenge, or understand what is going on, should be presented three times, on separate occassions, through different means. This may seem overkill, but remember, as a dm we are constantly thinking about our game, it's story, the characters everything. Obvious means something completely different to someone who only thinks about the game for 4 hours every other week. And most players, no matter how dedicated will not think about a game they are playing in more then a little bit away from the table. So you have to remind them.
On the theme of reminding them, write recaps. Email a summary of what happened after every session. Encourage campaign journals by the players (perhaps offering hero/action points for those that do). The more they think about the game away from the table, the more focused they will be at the table.
The second game is The Great Escape, or TGE for short. This is a pathfinder game with a snakey theme. The players have been dropped into a deeply religious world, and were required to start as a divine-themed class. They are inside a gigantic city called Nakash, known as "The Slithering City," which is an unimaginably huge mechanical snake crawling over the country and eating everything. They need to fight and negotiate their way from the tail to the head, dealing with snakes, monsters, and "the eaten," or the local people of Nakash.
As you might be able to tell, I did a lot of planning for this campaign and insured a literally linear storyline would occur. There are great heresies to uncover and terrible adventures to be had. However, in a way I'm finding a similar problem occurring. My inspiration is drying up, as is player motivation. I just don't know how to sell the next plot point or adventure...I just dropped something in the game that requires the players to backtrack and save somebody in the tail of Nakash, and then make it back to the belly of the beast. As soon as I put it in the game I knew it was a bad idea. I had just worked out all the monsters and adventures available in the belly. What do I do?
Finally, to conclude this medley of strange requests: I'm just tired. I just don't have that spark of imagination or excitement about the game that I used to. I need something to get me going again. I can't really take a break from GMing, because nobody will step into my shoes. If I step down, the good times end for sure. Yet I find myself being extremely irritable, overly annoyed about people taking too long, making decisions based on pique, and a host of other bad moves I never used to make.
Any thoughts will be deeply appreciated and I promise to respond to them.
Well DM fatigue is a real thing. Eventually you just get dried up. The best thing to do I believe at that point is to bring the campaign to a halt and start something new if taking a break isn't an option. You can even keep the same characters but fiat them into a new plane or new world, where they can follow a different story. Sometimes the best way to freshen up things is to really shake them up. A new world with a new story might be just the thing.
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I really think that running two games is the problem. It has not been a problem before because you were not burned out yet.
Now, the Asian one seems to lack from player interest. I think you might want to put it on hiatus for a few months. See if your excitement increases. The load of running a game can wear on you and dropping some of that burden might make TGE more fun for you.
If no one fills your shoes that may be for the best too. Sometimes players need a break from a game so they can become excited about it again.
@ Kolokotroni:
Thanks very much for the tips. I have to admit I'm not familiar with the "rule of 3," but that sounds like a great tip and one I'm very interested in applying.
I like the recaps idea and I will give that one a try as well. I'm a bit worried that it will be a lot of work for little payoff, however. People tend not to read that stuff because they say, "Oh, I remember."
I'm REALLY liking the idea of shaking things up in a humongous way! I've been keeping another idea or two in the back of my mind for a new campaign. Maybe I can pull that off...
However, that might ruin the storylines I have going. I wouldn't want to shake things up without a clear, legitimate storytelling method. I'll have to think about that.
@Karkon:
Thanks for the thoughts. I have to say that I TRIED to halt idaro, a couple months ago...but there was such a clamor for it to keep going that we started up again!
With the gaming schedule we have, we alternate the games based on who's in town. It's a system that really works, and would be perfect except for my personal problems. I really want to shake these games out like dirty bedding and freshen them up again somehow.
Thanks again!
-Moox
Don't underestimate the "rule of 3." I have been using that forever. It works.
I like deeply involved campaigns with lots of intrigue and plot twists and turns. I also like puzzles and enjoy "who done it" story lines. And I enjoy complex traps that require solving to continue on.
I have learned that everything I think is simple and easy is not simple and easy to my players. If I don't make things fairly obvious, the players rarely see the hook, figure out the criminal mastermind or overcome the trap.
It's not because they are not intelligent or motivated, it's because the perspective and context I have is totally different than their perspective and context. What seems simple and obvious to me is virtually impenetrable to the players. If I don't make it screamingly obvious to me, it is rarely seen or overcome by the players.
This is true in reverse. When I am a player I find those same things to be very difficult to solve for the same reasons.
Resolving the player motivation and energy issue might re-energize you or it might not. In some cases you just have to take a break and recharge your batteries.
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I will back up the rule of 3 too (really the rule of players are sometime so oblivious that you have to beat them over the head with a clue.)
Now, you might want to try starting each Idaro session in media res or in the middle of the action. Lets say they have to sneak their way into an enemy stronghold for some reason. Start them already in the stronghold, hiding from guards or getting ready to try to disable some guards quietly. I have used this to great effect in a Cyberpunk game I ran for a couple years. If you start the game in a location where there is danger (not deadly danger) or excitement you might get them more involved from the get go.
Start with a summary of the reasons that they came to the stronghold and tell them their situation. This lets you get them going on a story hook with no action of their own and lets you summarize the reasons and hook for them.
In some games I have required players to have a prop that represents their character and when they speak or act as their character they have to hold or wear the prop. It seems goofy but players will put a lot of thought into picking that prop and that process helps bond them to the character.
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I just want to add on in media res that you should not stick it to the players when using this device. Just set up the action and let them respond. Don't start with, "the great ninja has stolen your prized sword of awsomeness." Start with, "you see a figure flitting through the shadows, you remember the old man's warning that the Shadow Claw clan would come to steal back the sword for their masters." Then start the action from there.
I just want to add on in media res that you should not stick it to the players when using this device. Just set up the action and let them respond. Don't start with, "the great ninja has stolen your prized sword of awsomeness." Start with, "you see a figure flitting through the shadows, you remember the old man's warning that the Shadow Claw clan would come to steal back the sword for their masters." Then start the action from there.
I would be careful with this approach. To many players (myself included) this sort of approach bears some smell of railroading. Some players are more sensitive to that than others, so be sure you don't have players who will react very badly to being told that their party is in the middle of something that they personally feel their character would have vetoed immediately. That can cause a player who is already less than fully engaged to totally disengage from the campaign.
Not saying "don't do it" just saying "be very careful."
If the game has to stop then it has to stop. I am assuming you have their contact information. Take some time off if you have too, and call/email them when you are feeling revived again. They may also be burnt out as players.
A switch to a different system helps sometimes. I love Pathfinder, but I will probably run SW SAGA or Mutants and Masterminds next just to do something different.
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That can be a valid concern. I should also add that you should warn your players that you will be doing this to get the campaign on track. Just use it to start sessions and let the players choose from there. It is why I gave my warning just above.
Placing the characters into the action but not doing any harm yet (full spells, health etc). Good
Stealing their crap, using spell slots and dropping health; bad.
I have done it a lot and it gets the game jumping right away and the players have loved it. They get somewhere without rolls or expending resources. Just don't use it to try to screw em because then they will hate it.
That can be a valid concern. I should also add that you should warn your players that you will be doing this to get the campaign on track. Just use it to start sessions and let the players choose from there. It is why I gave my warning just above.
Placing the characters into the action but not doing any harm yet (full spells, health etc). Good
Stealing their crap, using spell slots and dropping health; bad.
I have done it a lot and it gets the game jumping right away and the players have loved it. They get somewhere without rolls or expending resources. Just don't use it to try to screw em because then they will hate it.
This sounds like an approach that would work. The key things being "don't spring it on them" and "don't gimp them in some way." Perhaps the most frustrating and irritating thing a GM has ever done to my character was to say "You wake up naked and in prison."
WTF? And how, exactly, did my character, who takes great pains to avoid being surprised or captured, end up this way? "Oh, it just happened."
To say that I was less than happy with the situation is a severe understatement. Even knowing that the GM was generally a decent fellow and that it was highly likely that we would get out of prison and get our stuff back, I didn't see it as an "interesting and unusual challenge" I saw it as absolute GM fiat when he was unable to come up with a workable plot device.
Because of that I am probably one of those hyper-sensitive players I'm warning about. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't respond positively to something like Karkon is suggesting, just that it better be something I buy into before it is sprung on me.
As in the means of offering ideas, here's some things that I use with relative success, aside from what has already been mentioned.
If campaign journals/summaries seems like a huge thing for you ( I know it does for me on top of other preparation work) and something the players rarely pay huge attention to, it might be an idea to ask one of them (probably one who likes to write/is rather dutiful about getting things done)or alternatively all in turn, to write down summaries/journals from time to time. During game breaks it'll help to refresh memory, it's going to make one player - at least - spend more time on the game, and can be done quickly if the player in question simply take notes on each major event every session - it doesn't have to be full prose to work.
Assigning different players to recording different things is another option, for example in my current game one player records experience for the entire team and calculates up what they gained last time (with my help of course) between sessions, one write short summaries, one keeps track of quest, another of shared loot, and yet another of persons they meet and interact with, etc.
Another way to involve my players more, which has proved effective on most of them is talking or (more often) mailing to them about personal subplots for their characters, that are not essential enough for the rest to care, but cool for the individual player and his/her understanding of his/her specific character. It requires some work, and if your players don't treat it as something important and don't bother answering (I had one who did so, and discontinued the idea for him, while doing it with the others still, to no detriment of fun for him and less work for me). This in turn also helps me lay out character motivations for player who don't seem very well into their character. I also used it to introduce a new player into an already played NPC with some luck.
On another note, the problem you mention with backtracking in the TGE game might be solved through letting the players discover that the "person in need of saving" is actually a ruse set by someone, who don't want them to get any further for whatever insidious reason - letting them discover this before they leave might give them a sense of achievement - tricking the one tricking you appeals to some people too, and it'll make your most resent work useful at once - before you get more tired of it.
Constantly changing game styles might work for inspiration too, starting some game in danger as mentioned by someone already for example, or alternating between social focused encounters in one session, and combat focus the next.
Good luck finding the inspiration again - it can be (very) hard at times, and telling your players so might be an idea too - mine always seem shocked about the amount of time I spent on it, and usually act more attentively and appreciatively if they are reminded that it's not a work-free endeavour for all of us.
. . .yet I have struggled since the beginning with motivating the characters. It all began when their martial arts temple and masters were annihilated in a surprise attack, and they left to seek revenge. But no matter how I twist it around, or what clues I drop in their path, somehow they just aren't...motivated. They don't know where to go, or what to do. Sometimes they will skip over obvious plot hooks (I recently fell to the level of using the Old Man NPC, who got ignored and bypassed)! Other times things just don't...get going. It's like they're not fully inhabiting their characters, or at least I'm not fully understanding how they inhabit those characters. There's been LOTS of discusssion...
I've seen this problem before. You create this elaborate plot and sequence of events using great writing, excellently drawn NPCs, and perhaps a great mystery or other writing device. But when it comes down to the nitty-gritty of playing through it, the players don't feel like they're actually playing a game where their choices really mean anything. That's because ultimately they don't. Player choices ultimately lead to the next plot point. And what probably has them bummed out is that they *know* this. It doesn't take long for a player to figure this out.
I think you're probably so anxious to start the party on your grand mission that the group can't really get into their characters. Put story and NPCs on the backburner for a while. Focus on the PCs. What do they want to do? Why are they adventuring? Introduce NPCs that play off the strengths and weaknesses of the players. Make a series of adventures that have multiple ways to finish them. Draw up a few encounters, but allow the PCs to somehow connect to those encounters. Don't give the PCs a set of silly choices and one obviously good choice. . . which leads to the next plot point.
First off, LOVE the Great Escape idea. Second, at least for Idaro, the plot can come to them, if you have a further crack in reality directly affect what the players are doing, that could kickstart some motivation to return to the "A-Plot" so to speak.
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A couple of ideas...
The sympathetic NPC. Not an Old Man... 'cos they're just not sympathetic... but someone it'll be easy for the players to get an emotional attachment to - the 'lost little kid', and the 'exotic babe out of her depth' are both classics, for example. Using a character like this to lead the PCs towards plot points tends to, I find, work much better than the Old Man pointing the way. The Old Man has all the information - he's telling the PCs what to do, and the players know that. The sympathetic NPC works the other way round - they ask questions, put forward naive points of view, and generally prompt the PCs to take charge and act like heroes. The sympathetic NPC needs protecting. The best sympathetic NPCs also have a healthy dose of mystery built-in as well, to keep the players interested and guessing: who is this little girl really? She can't recall her name, or background... but her eyes are a weird shade of gold, and she sings songs in an ancient sounding language even she doesn't understand... The sympathetic NPC, once established, can help to guide PCs by wandering off and getting into trouble, or just getting kidnapped, as well. The key is to present a character the players care about, which is the tricky part - but you know your players, right? Shamelessly toy with things you know one or the other will fall for - one guy likes redheads? Hey - the sympathetic NPC just happens to be a redheaded babe...
Another idea is the cliffhanger - it can be tricky, but can pay off if done right. Basically you end a session on a cliffhanger with no obvious means of escape - leaving the players thinking about potential ways out of their predicament whilst they're away from the gaming table. It's not one to over-do, but throwing one in every now and then can not only stimulate the players into thinking about the game between sessions, it's also an easy to describe scene to get them back into the game at the start of the next session. Set up some dangerous situation to end a session on (boat tumbles over the edge of a waterfall, dragon is strafing them with flames, etc.), then tell the players that at the start of the next session they'll each have one round (or one standard action, or whatever) to get themselves out of it. Then send 'em home...
Other than that... just take a couple of weeks off from it all. Oh, and watch as many Ray Harryhausen films as you can during your downtime! :)
Whoa, you go away for an hour and your thread goes crazy!
@ Brassbaboon: It is an honor to get a response from you, sir! I always think you run the types of games I'd love to play in.
Thanks very much for the perspective. It is quite true that things which are obvious to the GM are almost always less so to the players. I've run into that problem many times in the past, and I do try to communicate things clearly to the players without utterly breaking the fourth wall. However, I think in this case it's more of a lack of impetus than a lack of understanding.
Recently, the players were on their way to meet a figure called "The Nightcrawler King"--a somewhat ambiguous figure, being evil yet not always siding with evil over history. They were traipsing through very dangerous country in order to meet with him as well as raid a treasure tomb nearby. Well, they finished up with the tomb and were preparing to move on to the King...and then one of them goes, "Meh. The Nightcrawler King is kind of scary. You know what, why go to see this guy? Whatever, let's go do something else. But what else is there to do?" And I'm left despondent at the end of the session. It's as if they care about their characters, but don't care about their motivations or about actually accomplishing what they set out to do.
@Karkon: Thanks for further tips! Unfortunately, I really don't think an "in medias res" style would fly with my group, at all. If ANYthing significant happens while players are out of the room, these normally fun, polite people get very angry. We recently had a huge dust-up over this very thing, actually. Player's freedom of choice, as well as the opportunity to set things up right going into any adventure, is very important to my group. I think that brassbaboon is correct in this instance about the objections that would be raised, EVEN if there were no detriment to the players at all. Still, the concept of a more get-to-the-action style might help considerably.
@Luthia: Those are all great ideas, although they do require me to ask people to do more work. I've pared my campaign guides down to one helpful page for a reason. People will read beyond that, but they won't remember it or incorporate those further pages into their identities. The problem is less one of player involvement than of players believing that what they do is...important, perhaps? I do really like the idea of e-mailed about personal plotlines, although I'm unsure about making those make sense in the group story.
I really like the idea for solving the backtrack issue! I had actually planned something very similar, but foolishly planned for it to occur after the backtracking had taken place! Your comment has made me realize that there's not really a need for such backtrack, and a twist involving the players discovery of a slippery plot like that would be absolutely amazing. It will make both them and myself feel awesome. An important part of getting things back on track. Thanks, Luthia!
@Brambleman: Why, thanks! I do try hard to come up with unique campaign settings and ideas. In Idaro, I do want to be careful about railroading, so a plot coming up and slapping them in the face would have to be carefully and clearly justified. That's something to consider, so thank you.
@ProfPotts: thank you very much for those excellent suggestions. Now that you say it, you may be absolutely right about the sympathetic NPC. Nobody wants to do what the know-it-all says. Everyone wants to rescue the person in distress.
Thing is, I've definitely tried that in the past. It works all right, but once the players deal with the immediate problem they just want to celebrate and move on. They'll listen with interest and appear to care very much about any hooks or plot points related to the sympathetic character...yet when that's over, for some reason it's as if they suddenly stopped caring, or at least caring very deeply. Perhaps three damsels in distress are in order (to combine the rule of three here, haha)!
The cliffhanger drives my players a bit crazy. I've used it, and it works, but can't be overdone, as I'm sure you know, professor. :)
Thanks!
-Moox
You also have to be careful with campaigns that have cultural or religious concepts that are foreign to the players in real life, because they do not have a basis for their experiences and translating those into character. That is why oriental campaigns are not as popular as concepts from western culture. The same could be stated with heavy religious overtones, if they are not similar to western based concepts. You will have to go the extra mile to translate these experiences, and there is a greater chance you will get burned out doing it.
IdaRo. Haha!
I don't know if Scooby-Doo would survive this harsh world...
-Moox
You also have to be careful with campaigns that have cultural or religious concepts that are foreign to the players in real life, because they do not have a basis for their experiences and translating those into character. That is why oriental campaigns are not as popular as concepts from western culture. The same could be stated with heavy religious overtones, if they are not similar to western based concepts. You will have to go the extra mile to translate these experiences, and there is a greater chance you will get burned out doing it.
Interesting points there. However, I feel pretty confident about the "translation" of these games. Things have been running very smoothly up until recent events. My players have been very into the game, getting into theological discussions in TGE, and tapping into zen precepts and history-based adventures in Idaro.
Nevertheless, you may be quite right about these ambitious games contributing to burnout.-Moox
In Idaro, I do want to be careful about railroading, so a plot coming up and slapping them in the face would have to be carefully and clearly justified.
It all began when their martial arts temple and masters were annihilated in a surprise attack, and they left to seek revenge. But no matter how I twist it around, or what clues I drop in their path, somehow they just aren't...motivated.
Revenge is usually a concept I introduce in a game after a significant amount of playing time when the PCs actually have something to avenge that occurred in-game. Events that occurred before the game starts typically aren't factored. It's very hard to play a truly vengeful character when there isn't a significant amount of material covered in-game.
While it's one thing to assume players can play a role, it's another thing when they're thrown into this role with no connection. The PCs did train for years with the masters, but the *players* didn't control the PCs during this time. The sense of loss is difficult to convey at the beginning of a game. . . especially when the entire game is built on the concept of satisfying that revenge.
You say you're not railroading, but asking a player to play a character focused on revenge is railroading in another form. You can't necessarily assume the players will actually care one way or another. The *PCs* might care, but the connection between the PCs and players is very weak.
Revenge is usually a concept I introduce in a game after a significant amount of playing time when the PCs actually have something to avenge that occurred in-game. Events that occurred before the game starts typically aren't factored. It's very hard to play a truly vengeful character when there isn't a significant amount of material covered in-game.While it's one thing to assume players can play a role, it's another thing when they're thrown into this role with no connection. The PCs did train for years with the masters, but the *players* didn't control the PCs during this time. The sense of loss is difficult to convey at the beginning of a game. . . especially when the entire game is built on the concept of satisfying that revenge.
You say you're not railroading, but asking a player to play a character focused on revenge is railroading in another form. You can't necessarily assume the players will actually care one way or another. The *PCs* might care, but the connection between the PCs and players is very weak.
That sounds true. However, for me, the opposite has always been true without fail. In Idaro, the destruction of the temple occurred IN-game rather than before the story.
In my experience, players have always been convinced that they would care deeply about events that occurred before the game started. They have always been much harder to convince that they should care about events IN-game. It's possible, but harder.The best game I ever ran, which was entitled Darkshroud, had a revenge event occur before the game start...which the players cared deeply about for the entirety of the story, and even brought it up in conversations. I don't know why I broke that mold in Idaro, but when the events were unfolding before their eyes, it had much less of an impact.
Counter-intuitive, but 100% true!
-Moox
Perhaps picking up a module to run for a few sessions could help? A break from the norm, basically.
In my experience, players have always been convinced that they would care deeply about events that occurred before the game started. They have always been much harder to convince that they should care about events IN-game. It's possible, but harder.
Hmmm, that runs counter to my experience. . . hmmm. . .
In my experience, players have always been convinced that they would care deeply about events that occurred before the game started. They have always been much harder to convince that they should care about events IN-game. It's possible, but harder.Hmmm, that runs counter to my experience. . . hmmm. . .
I think I may get what Moox is saying here. I'm not sure, but I do know that I've encountered situations that sound similar to what Moox is going through. I think in my cases the events that the party cares about that happened "before" the adventure are things that were critical to the character creation and concept phase of the game, and with many players, those conceptual things become critically important role playing guides for the character. For example, my 4e ranger was kidnapped as a child by slavers and raised as a slave. Several events, including his escape from the slavers, are deeply written into his character concept, so deep that he will choose non-optimized options because they match his concept which is still driven by the pre-game "event" of his capture and escape.
There is really very little that has occurred "in game" that has had anything like a similar impact to that character, although many very traumatic events have occurred. The closest thing to an in-game event that has had a similar impact revolves around a side plot-point about saving his sister from gladiatorial imprisonment, which again is tied to the original capture and escape that drives much of his behavior.
I guess my goal as the GM is to make the game experience the most fun aspect of playing the game. If I make the part of the game *before* playing the most fun aspect (character creation), then obviously the entire game is going to be a letdown comparatively.
I played in a game where character creation was the most fun part of the game. But that was because when the game actually started, I found out a couple of new players made a bunch of bad choices that caused the game to be much more difficult than it had to be. They found out that the older players pretty much knew every monster (though their characters did not) and were annoyed that the game didn't have more mystery and awe about it. That created some out-of-game resentment between older and newer players that overshadowed the entire game.
Maybe there's some hidden conflict between the players?
I think I may get what Moox is saying here. I'm not sure, but I do know that I've encountered situations that sound similar to what Moox is going through. I think in my cases the events that the party cares about that happened "before" the adventure are things that were critical to the character creation and concept phase of the game, and with many players, those conceptual things become critically important role playing guides for the character. For example, my 4e ranger was kidnapped as a child by slavers and raised as a slave. Several events, including his escape from the slavers, are deeply written into his character concept, so deep that he will choose non-optimized options because they match his concept which is still driven by the pre-game "event" of his capture and escape.There is really very little that has occurred "in game" that has had anything like a similar impact to that character, although many very traumatic events have occurred. The closest thing to an in-game event that has had a similar impact revolves around a side plot-point about saving his sister from gladiatorial imprisonment, which again is tied to the original capture and escape that drives much of his behavior.
Aha! Yes, you've just about got it now. I play with good players, who respond well to storytelling and want to play the story while making their own choices. However, nothing in-game seems to be having the impact it should. I feel like it's me, and I'm trying to figure out how to fix that.
I would ideally like their behavior to be driven by in-game choices and conflicts, rather than by a sense that they're missing the main plot. I'm liking the thought of a sympathetic character in need, as I can see ways to make that work within the framework of both stories.Maybe there's some hidden conflict between the players?
Hmmm. We have our occasional conflicts, like other gaming groups. It's inevitable when you run weekend marathon sessions like ours (often 10+ hours). However, I don't think that's the problem. As I mentioned in the OP, we've talked about the problems a lot, at least for Idaro. Yet it's not getting fixed. I'm just looking for fresh ideas and ways to shake things up, which is exactly what I'm getting, so thanks to everyone :)
-Moox
stuff about bacon and doing something ridiculous as a technique
Hahahaha! You, sir, are quite hilarious. I don't know if that level of insanity would really be fun for my group, but I've definitely had the experience where a silly decision led to awesome things happening in the game. I'll keep that in mind, Quirken :)
-Moox
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Well, I've dm'd and played for a couple years both. I've found that the only way to get players invested is to give them decisions that matter. And they also need to have choices about the things they do.
As an example, I try to provide my players with three different plothooks (my version of the rule of three). Each one has rewards, and consequences from not addressing the other two.
In your example with the ambiguously evil guy(codenamed pat), I would have given the players the option to go talk to him, and two other options. Should the players have addressed one of the other options, then they would occasionally hear stories about pat's evil actions on the world around them.
But actions are only meaningful if they have the appearance of effect. If performing the wrong action means doing something different, and performing the right action means progressing forward, oftentimes players choose the wrong action just to see something different.
Oh, and here's my favorite trick. Those three choices I talked about earlier? The first one they pick will always end up in the same encounter I prepared for the scenario. If they go back to complete the other two, they get the subsequent encounters I prepared for the next few sessions. You don't have to build five different encounter chains for five options. You just need hard crunch, and flavor text to connect where you need it.