There's nothing wrong with a signiture.Would make sense on longer posts. Totally unnecessary on one or two line posts.Hmmm...didn't know that...well ok then. Sorry.I think that posting your name at the end of the post is annoying...Hama, its good form to sign off on what your writing. It just ends up being more work for the reader if he has to scroll back up to remember who it is.
booger=boy
Not according to the FAQ ;)
there is a PFS fighter in our group that does 2d6+15
he is first level
he uses a 2 handed weapon
damage potential has outstripped defence and hps through the editions
And also a fighter wielding two handed weapon is one of the biggest damage dealers in the game.
One of the biggest? Who can outperform them? Especially if we're assuming the recommended amount of encounters per day and a healthy spread of enemy types?
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This thread makes my head hurt.
Booger=Boy, it has been pointed out to you many times with logic just how a 3./PF Fighter does more damage that a 1st Ed one with a Greatsword.
Lvl 1 2D6+7 at Max Str is better than 1D10+6, period.
Folks say 'without even considering Feats... but they must be considered.
Things like Power Attack were designed to further point out how devastating 2-H-Weapons are. So, add another +3 to that Damage, because instead of walking up and swinging, a PF Fighter is Charging and PA that poor, unfortunate Orc.
Feats.etc are relevant, since the thread isn't titled 'How come the Greatsword does less damage dice in 3./PF than in 1st Ed?, but rather it asks why it is so Wimpy, which it is most certainly not.
It does higher base damage (2D6 vs. 1d10), it has better damage (As a 2HW) via Power Attack, and other Feats/Abilities down the road, and it has twice the chance of Critting than a Greataxe (19-20 Vs. 20), though with a less awesome result (x2 vs x3) if i does get that Crit.
In 1st Ed, there were no 'Crits' officially, though many folks made '20's special (We did double damage, for example).
As somebody who does love Greatswords, but also loves other weapons, I am incredibly glad that they ditched the cumbersome damage vs> size chart. My Warhammer no longer dos D4+1, nor does my Greataxe suck...Let's not even get started on crossbows...Ugh.
1st Ed had a romantic love of the sword. Longswords did a D12 Vs. Large, and the Short Sword even did better (D8) Damage. The 'Classic' sword-wielding Hero slaying the Dragon sticks with most of our childhood fantasies/play, bu it's nice to know that one can now get equal awesome out of a Polearm.
-Uriel
Anyone else reminded of Hodor? :D
Anyway, two-handed weapons are down-right fearsome. Damage dice aren't a big factor, anyway, but they still get a better average damage than other weapons. Greatswords deal 7 points on average, which is a lot better than 5.5, and you don't get that unless you blow a feat on an exotic weapon, otherwise it's 4.5.
And that's also the bonus you get when you take Vital Strike. And again when you get Improved, and then Greater.
There's also crits, but the dice aren't that important in that case, because you also get your other bonuses then.
You have to take the Greatsword dmg in context.
PF/3.5 actually has more in common with Basic D&D as far as weapons go. Instead of adding weapon mastery that upped dmg for a weapon's dice, you just up str and add some fixed bonuses.
The greatsword in 1E was considerably stronger then in PF on a comparative basis. Use the Red Dragon...88 Hp vs 500 HP? The PF Greatsword would have to be doing 5-50 +84 dmg to be keeping even with a Fighter with Storm Giant Girdle and Spec. Plus, you're comparing 21 AC vs a 44...the Fighter is auto hit.
The foes in 1E were MUCH less tough. Hill Giants were 8 HD +1-2 HP. That's an average of 40 HP. AC 4. (=16).
As far as stats, Strength items in 1E ASSIGNED a score. Gauntlets of Ogre Power, 18.00 str for all purposes, Girdles of Giant Str assigned you the higher Str. You basically needed a 16 Str for the xp bonus and a str boosting item.
And when you're using Unearthed Arcana and rolling 9d6 dice for starting str, add in age mods, nto hard to get 18's at all!
I think they floated a rule in later years that the Str bonus you could add to a thrown weapon was limited by the dmg of the weapon. Darts, doing 1-3, maxed at +3 Str dmg. They were also perishable, so you didn't have magical darts except in special cases.
The big two handed weapons were powerful WEAPONS...you used them because they were the best tools for the job. PF weapons are considerably more stat dependent.
===
THe s-m vs L dmg type was based on just how massive a wound your weapon could do to something. A dagger could put six inches of steel into a man...six inches into a hill giant was nothing. Six feet of Greatsword could put a truly massive injury into something large...there was a lot more there to be injured! Blunt weapons were always less effective against large things then piercing and cutting weapons.
The bastard sword was the best overall weapon. Longsword in one hand, 2-8/2-16 in two hands for a NICE damagejump. However, it rarely got used because 60% of all magical swords were longswords, and you wanted a magic weapon, right?
And Lolth wasn't a God in 1E, she was the Demon Queen of Spiders. She didn't become a goddess until FR 'promoted' her, and as soon as they did, her stats changed.
She could also Heal 3t/day, and had a base -8 AC (=28) before you started factoring in protective spells.
Keep in mind that 1E had far fewer TH bonuses then PF does, AC was lower, and Clerics could still reliably hit everything, as could theives, because of it. But because only fighters could get the truly high strength levels, Melee dominated the combat niche completely. They were also the only class that got multiple attacks (other then TWF), and the only one that got more then +2 hp/hd.
Just take a look at max hp for characters in the two editions. A F/20 in 1E with an 18 Con maxed 126 hp from HD, and then +33 more by level, for 159 HP at 20th, and getting that 19 Con for another +9 HP was both unlikely and not likely to happen.
A f/20 in PF starting with an 18 con will probably have +6 to it by booster at 20, and maybe another +2 from Inherents, for a 26 and +8/level. That's 18 HP/level max...or 360 HP. He's got TWICE the HP of a 1E guy, so he'd better be doing mega dmg. Other classes do even better in HP vs their 1E counterparts because of the unlimited Con cap.
Melee in 1E had few bonuses to hit. 24 Str with the awesome Girdle of Giant Str was +6 th, +12 dmg. That's the same ability TH as a 22 Str in PF. however, that's a 34 or a 26 Str, depending on how you view the dmg.
Interestingly enough, PF/3E att/rd for melee almost mirrors the dmg advance of the Fighter. 1, 3/2, 2 and 5/2 att/rd dmg is almost exactly equal on a damage spread to the iteratives at 6th, 11, and 16th levels. Of course, only 1E melees got to use multi attacks...unless you got ahold of a scimitar of speed, or wielded two weapons.
ON an Edition comparison basis, 1E Fighters were far, far more dominant in the Melee role then PF fighters are, simply because of their foes, and how much weaker the other classes were in Melee in comparison. A large weapon meant more in 1E then it does in PF, because bonuses were so much harder to come by.
Oh, yeah, 1E Melees also got to move and make their full attacks, too.
==Aelryinth
A great concise summary there, Aelryinth.
Thanks
I'm going to have restore some of these weapon scores in my Pathfinder campaign to see how it works out. I'm sure some game designer thought they were too powerful in comparison to others and toned them down. Or worse that they were too violent(I hope this isn't the case). :lol:
I'm not seeing these extra d6s as something that's going to break the game. But the best answer is to test it out!
booger=boy
That's an idea, but in 2nd Ed, the best swords (other than vorpal or those giving extra attacks) was the frostblade for an extra 2d10. In pathfinder, you get +1 to +5 bonuses but you can enchant them with fire/cold/electricity properties for an extra +d6 damage each. A weapon can be effectively enchanted for these extra dice multiple times.
So by giving an extra +d6 dam for a great sword you are giving a free magic sword. Also it means no PC would ever have another weapon than great sword.
Would you change the damage against non-large creatures? What about lizardmen (they were large in older eds)?
I'm going to have restore some of these weapon scores in my Pathfinder campaign to see how it works out. I'm sure some game designer thought they were too powerful in comparison to others and toned them down. Or worse that they were too violent(I hope this isn't the case). :lol:
I'm not seeing these extra d6s as something that's going to break the game. But the best answer is to test it out!
booger=boy
That's an idea, but in 2nd Ed, the best swords (other than vorpal or those giving extra attacks) was the frostblade for an extra 2d10. In pathfinder, you get +1 to +5 bonuses but you can enchant them with fire/cold/electricity properties for an extra +d6 damage each. A weapon can be effectively enchanted for these extra dice multiple times.
So by giving an extra +d6 dam for a great sword you are giving a free magic sword. Also it means no PC would ever have another weapon than great sword.
Would you change the damage against non-large creatures? What about lizardmen (they were large in older eds)?
I don't have any problem restoring those weapons to the damage types that were in the "great golden" days. We will have to see how the players will react to having the changes. I don't think every player will go after the big hitters or even be able to use them. That's how it worked out in the past.
If the two-hander/Greatsword was 1-10 against normal sized and 3-18 against big ones, than let it be!
I can't bring back boobs yet since I haven't got my drawing skills up to snuff, maybe next year.
booger=boy
What about the differing size damages for other weapons? Or weapons speeds? Or weapons other than the greatsword? Would you change the crit range of these weapons?
Hey B-Boy, check out the Mongoose Conan d20 ruleset, I think you'll like those weapon ranges.
Oh, yeah, 1E Melees also got to move and make their full attacks, too.
At a much reduced speed -- half of their normal... 9' iirc.
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The Fighter is not the Two Handed sword
The Feats are not the Two Handed sword
Can a wimp PC use the damned thing properly?
High strength and Power Attack both grant 50% more damage from the use of two-handed weapons -- and all of that is multiplied on crits.)
And, if you want a 2d8 or a 3d6 weapon from your original d10 or 2d6, drink a potion of Enlarge Person (do this with a dagger, and it goes from d4 to d6...wee!).
I'm going to have restore some of these weapon scores in my Pathfinder campaign to see how it works out. I'm sure some game designer thought they were too powerful in comparison to others and toned them down. Or worse that they were too violent(I hope this isn't the case). :lol:
I'm not seeing these extra d6s as something that's going to break the game. But the best answer is to test it out!
booger=boy
That's an idea, but in 2nd Ed, the best swords (other than vorpal or those giving extra attacks) was the frostblade for an extra 2d10. In pathfinder, you get +1 to +5 bonuses but you can enchant them with fire/cold/electricity properties for an extra +d6 damage each. A weapon can be effectively enchanted for these extra dice multiple times.
So by giving an extra +d6 dam for a great sword you are giving a free magic sword. Also it means no PC would ever have another weapon than great sword.
Would you change the damage against non-large creatures? What about lizardmen (they were large in older eds)?
I don't have any problem restoring those weapons to the damage types that were in the "great golden" days. We will have to see how the players will react to having the changes. I don't think every player will go after the big hitters or even be able to use them. That's how it worked out in the past.
If the two-hander/Greatsword was 1-10 against normal sized and 3-18 against big ones, than let it be!
I can't bring back boobs yet since I haven't got my drawing skills up to snuff, maybe next year.
booger=boy
Why oh why would you want to change back to the 'great golden days'? Why on earth would your players want you to use the old (arbitrarily determined without any thought to game balance) damage numbers for weapons? Shall we restrict people to proficiency with just a couple of weapons as well?
Why am I even entertaining these propositions as if they're somehow reasonable?I hate to ask this, but is this an elaborate exercise in trolling?
No, Strength 18 in PF is +4 bonusoh, good so the ability chart I was looking at was right when it had 18:4.
booger=boy
Didn't you say earlier you had 3.X experience? That is basic knowledge.
Edit:I see you say have 3rd. In my prior post I was talking about play experience not just owning the books.
I will repost the relevant parts
Considering your "prestige" post I am thinking you skipped from 1st or 2nd edition straight to Pathfinder. That is cool though. What you will find is that the game has changed a lot.
no, I've got first. 3rd. Like to look at 2nd edition stuff. Got some 4th.
I will now rephrase my statement. How much actual play experience do you have with 3.X?
edit:fixed typo.
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nostalgia is great, but nots let it could our vision, lest we still think edsils and pintos are the pinnacles of car development
And vice-versa, lets not just assume that because the d20 system came later, it's automatically superior to retro D&D in all ways, which I have noticed a few posts in this thread implying.
I think that posting your name at the end of the post is annoying...Hama, its good form to sign off on what your writing. It just ends up being more work for the reader if he has to scroll back up to remember who it is.
booger=boy
Your name is above your post. The only way post is get mixed up is when people post very similar messages, and in that cast your signature won't really help, but it is a small issue.
edit:Nevermind the FAQ says it is not a small issue.
Obtain Large Sized Full Blade.
Obtain Monkey Grip and Exotic Weapon Proficiency Full Blade.
Do 3d8 damage just from the blade.
Fighter Varient - Two-Handed Fighter
Apply 2x Str Bonus to damage from weapon.
Increase Bonus from Power Attack by +1.
Level 16 fighter with 22 Str
3d8+80 per hit on up to 4 attacks per round.
Not including any crit modifiers/bonuses.
If you're really worried about it two handed fighters can do incredible amounts of damage if you simply apply yourself toward it.
Yes, these are all 3.5 options. Yes, there is a conversion for them over to Pathfinder. Yes, without Monkey Grip you can do the same thing in 3 ways.
1) Accept the -2 Penalty for the Awkward sized grip
2) Re-Forge the Grip so that a Medium Sized Creature can wield it.
3) Use standard sized Full Blade, get item of Enlarge Person.
Standard Sized Full Blade is 2d8.
Also, we see your name at the top of your post with every post you make. Not only is there no need to add a signature of any sort, there is especially no need to use your username for a signature. Additionally, as has been pointed out, the FAQ suggests to avoid it.
Why do you guys care about dumb little issues like a signature? Why not focus on the blasted game? :lol:
I'm sure most of you are really bothered by a signature. Give me a break! :lol:
booger=boy
Because it is annoying.
booger=boy
When you walk into a place of business with your lunch and sit down to eat it and someone points out the sign that says "No food or drink," it's generally polite to abide by the rules of the place of business rather than laugh, continue to eat, and complain about the people pointing out the establishment's published preference.
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this isn't one of those friggin places. Its a friggin board where it's normal the last time I looked to have signatures. Find something else to bug me about.
booger=boy
Why can't I include a signature with my posts?
We're trying to keep the appearance of our messageboards as clean and streamlined as possible. Signatures that get repeated over and over on a page detract from the main conversation, and we'd prefer that you not manually insert them into your messages.
You are not abiding by the company rules.
If you're going to quibble over the usage of signatures, please either do so through private messages, get a moderator involved, or go start another thread about signatures. :)
I'm surprised nobody has pointed out that those "almighty two handers" in 2e could be outperformed by tiny little darts in the hands of a fighter.
...Seriously, dart fighters were scary.
ok, why don't you write to the company and tell them you can't handle someone having a sig. It's ruining your life. :lol:
There's nothing annoying about it at all. This may be the first time I've ever heard of anyone complaining about a sig.
Maybe I don't like your flaming skull, but I'm not telling you to drop it. Big friggen deal, get over it.
I'm not sure if its dorkish or control freakish to worrying about my sig.
booger=boy
It is not ruining my life. You asked a question so I answered it. Your attitude is not helping either, and there is nothing to get over.
If it is annoying to even one person then it is annoying. It not being annoying to you does not make it not annoying.This is about the 3rd time you have misread one of my post as being upset. The common theme is that they all had me disagreeing with you. I will repeat it again, this time more clearly.--> Someone disagreeing with you does not mean they are upset or "having a cow."
If you understand the bolded area reply with a simple yes.
If you're going to quibble over the usage of signatures, please either do so through private messages, get a moderator involved, or go start another thread about signatures. :)
Give me instructions on how to do a PM here and I will. :)
I'm surprised nobody has pointed out that those "almighty two handers" in 2e could be outperformed by tiny little darts in the hands of a fighter.
...Seriously, dart fighters were scary.
Someone did. :)
When you walk into a place of business with your lunch and sit down to eat it and someone points out the sign that says "No food or drink," it's generally polite to abide by the rules of the place of business rather than laugh, continue to eat, and complain about the people pointing out the establishment's published preference.this isn't one of those friggin places. Its a friggin board where it's normal the last time I looked to have signatures. Find something else to bug me about.
booger=boy
Just because you are not physically inside of a brick and mortar Paizo building that does not mean it is not a place of business.
:)
For all of you wondering what the ":)" are about. I don't anyone want to assume that I am upset. :)
edit:added "anyone"
** spoiler omitted **
Darn it.
<thinks, since ToZ may have countered his PM post to Gloom>That was only semi-private since anyone can read it. You almost single-handily countered my reply to Gloom.
:)
** spoiler omitted **
TriOmegaZero did it properly. A Spoiler tag with a note so that if people click on the button and have an issue with what they read, it's their own fault. Afterall, they clicked the button. :P