Hello,
Now I'm not very experienced when it comes to tabletop RPGs and this is my first ever arcane caster, but every guide and topic I've read seems to suggest that I am playing a wizard effectively. I disagree.
To get to the point, I basically feel I am not getting the desired effects of playing a God-like wizard that I want. (My wizard is both a Treantmonk's Battlefield Controller "God" and a character with a a slight superiority complex.) I'm expecting 2-3 spell combination auto-win a fight style wizardy and all I end up doing is making some glittery orcs puke. :/
To provide a bit of background, I play in a weekly desert campaign (APL is currently 7.5). I play an infernal teifling conjurer with an ego and taste for finer things in life. (unlike the filthy demonic teifling magus peasant that keeps following him around.) Asides from the new magus player, we also have a summoner, a fighter, and a stalwart defender that bring the pain up front. Our last member is a cleric who is typically working triple overtime making sure these 4 still have their precious bodily fluids. (I constantly remind him he can conserve resources by simply not healing the magus >:D )
We have had our share of fights with undead, orcs, trolls and we recently have been dealing with a sect of rust-monster riding barbarians. I mention this because I feel that humanoids and giants will continue to be what we are forced to face and will help with spell choice decision making. Also fire resistant creatures and monsters are common.
All paizo material is allowed as well as some 3.5 stuff (spell compendium for instance is ok). The only houserule my DM has is that death effect spells are 3.5 death effect spells.
We are about to get to a library where I can finally find and scribe some decent level 4 spells down. Prior to, I have been making do with borrowing a spellbook of a dwarven pyromaniac. The reason I'm coming to you all now is that since UM came out I have a good chance of being able to "re-train" and tweak my character a little bit as far as feats and spells go to accommodate new source material at this time as well.
My feats are Toughness, Improved Initiatve, Disruptive Spell, Focused Spell, and Sudden Maximize
0 level spells:Acid splash,Arcane Mark,Bleed,Dancing Lights, Daze,Detect Magic,Detect Poison,Disrupt Undead,Flare,Ghost Sound, Light,Mage Hand,Mending,Message,Open/close,prestidigation,ray of frost,read magic, resistance,spark, touch of fatigue,
Level 1:
Feather Fall, Grease,Identify,Mage Armor,Magic Missle,Obscuring Mist,Protection from evil,enlarge person,silent image,ray of enfeeblement,alarm,burning hands,color spray,reduce person,shield,shocking grasp,vanish,summon monster 1
Level 2:
Invisibility, Scorching ray,glitterdust,web,resist energy,levitate,protection from arrows,knock,see invisibility,mirror image,blur,bulls strength
Level 3:
Manyjaws,Stinking Cloud,Summon Monster 3,Haste,spiked pit,fireball,fly
Level 4:fire trap,summon monster 4,firefall,explosive runes,
fireshield,dragons breath,wall of fire,
Every major combat so far has been a derivative of this forumla:
Pre-Combat: Mage Armor, Mirror Image, Shield, Enlarge Person on our fighter
Round 1: Haste
Round 2: Glitterdust
Round 3: Stinking cloud the glittered targets
Round 4 +: Scorching Ray and Many Jaws for damage until I run out of useful spells (which happens pretty much around round 6 or 7).
When out of spells: My character finds a nice area to watch the battle and smokes a pipe.
What happens when I follow this formula:
Round 1: Haste is awesome. I feel like I'm contributing to the team here.
Round 2: I proceeded to make some enemies sparkly. (I don't know if it is lucky rolls or just poor DCs.. but no one ever gets blinded.)
Round 3: 1-3 Sparkly enemies are puking their guts out (ok I guess but not fight-winning-tier).
Round 4+: Between resistances and saves I'm hardly doing any damage.
Rounds when I'm out of spells: Character's frustration of not dominating fights is alleviated by the taste of the desert's finest tobacco.
Out of character, I feel like I'm doing things right. The more experienced members of the group who are helping me have never once said I was doing something especially stupid, but nonetheless I am disappointed at my wizard not auto-winning fights or playing up to my percieved potential. I also know I will only get better when I have more and more spells but I thought I would be contributing more than what I am doing now.
As far as improving goes, I'm looking over UM and I really think I should go for more evocation focused play. Toppling magic missles, toppling many jaws, disruptive many jaws, and hydrolic pushing mounted barbarians off their rust monsters seems more of what I am looking for.. but perhaps I'm wrong and could just be doing more with what I have already.
Thank you for reading and I hope a few of you are nice enough to help me out.
Save-or-suck spells are much more impressive when you can get one or more really dangerous enemies to fail a save against one. Against larger groups of weaker enemies, or against enemies who are prone to make their saves, I agree that they can be less exciting than advertised.
I don't think you're doing anything wrong, although Focused Spell and Disruptive spell might be better as cheap metamagic rods.
If you can get one of them to hold still long enough, fireshield your tank. It's another 'contributing damage' spell where you're applying damage directly where it helps them most.
That it also makes them highly resistant to you dropping a fireball into close combat doesn't hurt either ;)
Since glitterdust doesn't seem to be living up to your expectations, I'd just get a scroll or a wand of it to highlight invisible opponents as needed.
You could fence the targets in with a wall of fire, then use the stinking cloud to encourage them to pass through it to "safety" ;)
You have potentially 5 melee characters. Each one of them gets an extra attack at Full BAB. Remember that those aren't the player's attacks. They're *yours*.
If you want to focus more on damage, try using the Summon Spells. You'll get another monster to play around with. Just make sure to have the stats at hand, preferably on a card! With Summon Monster IV, you can get a Dire Wolf for some awesome tripping action, or a Lion, who has pounce. Pounce will let the lion charge, and then make a full attack. Plus, when he bites he can grapple as a free action, and if he grapples, he can use Rake to deal some damage.
The main question in my eyes is: do your allies have a hard time finishing off the opponents? If not, you're doing everything right.
You may have kind of misunderstood the concept of the "battlefield control god". It's not about pulverizing the enemies yourself. It's about giving your party that much of an advantage that they have an easy time finishing the job. Or, to cater towards your character's superiority complex: "Well, let's help my dumb henchmen out a bit there ... *haste* *glitterdust* *stinking cloud* ... that oughta do it. *Lights pipe*" So you're doing just fine. Maybe toss in some walls to split enemies as well.
But it sounds like you want more bling and mayhem caused directly by you. If that's the case, evocation it is.
Thank you for everyone's quick responses!
I understand that I don't necessarily do damage and I know that what I am doing is crowd control(CC) and making sure the fights are as easy as they can be. I love the idea of supporting that melee enthusiast crowd that I tag along with on my pursuit of ultimate power. My problem is that when things make their saves against my CC abilities I end up not contributing anything to my party members. I go from God to well I tried... have fun guys! Its pretty disappointing when that happens.
A few sessions ago I finally got to level 7 and was able to cast 4th level spells. Beforehand I just had them taking up space in my spellbook so I do feel like I can get a little bit better at spell combinations.
Summoning is something that definitely has caught my attention. Instead of doing damage and combat maneuvers via metamagic... I could just summon monsters to do these same exact things for me. Plus I can remain invisible! Hey that fits my conjurer God concept rather nicely. Thanks for that.
Perhaps I can ask my DM if I can get SF(Conjuration) instead of Scribe Scroll like in pathfinder society play and swap out focused spell for augment summoning. My logic for disruptive spell was using it as an anti-caster weapon and likewise focused spell was going to be used for that spell that just HAS to hit. Rods make more sense for these but we are rather item starved in the desert. Also I can see how summons like a direwolf can do damage and combat maneuvers and make good anti-caster spells. Plus I don't have to worry about savingthrows or peircing spell resistances.
Fireshielding one of the fighters definitely sounds like a good idea. I also like the idea of combining wall of fire and stinking cloud. I think I'll try out spiked pit (even though it has a material component) and see if I like that a little bit more than stinking cloud.
Ok, a couple things
First glitterdust-Your dm may be accounting for this save or lose spells are often fudged away by the dm, especially mass ones like glitterdust. He could be intentionally boosting saves or fudging roles, either way have a conversation, you may want to turn away from save or lose and stick to battlefield control.
Second what on earth are you doing as a self respecting god wizard casting scorching ray and fireball? You have 4th level spells, you want to auto win, drop a black tentacles on their heads.
Haste is a good choice and remember the god wizard doesnt win fights himself, he uses his minio..i mean allies to do it for him. Why do the heavy lifting? You dont need to blast them yourself, trap them in a web and let your allies cut them down. Fireballs and scorching rays should be a last resort, not something you do commonly.
Second what on earth are you doing as a self respecting god wizard casting scorching ray and fireball? You have 4th level spells, you want to auto win, drop a black tentacles on their heads.
(a) He just reached level 7, so black tentacles was out of reach for him until just recently.
(b) Once he drops his Haste + Glitterdust + Stinking Cloud (and/or Black Tentacles), he can either do some blasting (and help the fight end sooner) or sit on his thumbs doing nothing. Which sounds like more fun?
Second what on earth are you doing as a self respecting god wizard casting scorching ray and fireball? You have 4th level spells, you want to auto win, drop a black tentacles on their heads.
Like I said earlier, I have not had the chance to gain my choice of 4th level spells yet. The only ones I have were traded for with a pyromaniac who went by the name of firebeard.
Interestingly enough you would mention that spell because I was reading in a thread just this morning how people have mixed feelings about black tentacles.
Some think of it as too good to pass up and others discover it lackluster at best. Considering most of our combats are outside in the desert instead of in enclosed dungeons I have a feeling that I won't be getting much mileage out of that spell (unless I combine it with wall of fire and other battlefield controls and basically force enemies to choose between a fire, the blender that is my groups melee front line or penetrated by tentacles in holes you never knew you had.
Hogarth is right. Doing a little bit of damage after you watch your CC spell's effectiveness fizzle out helps your ego.
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I feel your frustration, after casting your 2-3 control/buff spells you feel like there's nothing you can do to actually help so you start casting an boom you're out of spells.
However think outside the box a bit and have some fun. You've already rigged the field for your party to have an easy time of things so start experimenting with those scrolls you've been scribing every night, you have been building a library of scrolls for just in case situations right?
You wanna have fun, ride through the middle of the opponents while on fire with a giant Sphinx chasing you (mount + Silent Image)
Guide your minions in battle by directing them to the weakest or strongest foes (Deathwatch + Message)
Disarm the big bad nasty at range while smoking a pipe and laughing at the fighter (burning disarm)
Remember a God Wizard changes a fight from challenging to a cake walk then does what he likes, and I like to play. :)
Alright this is going to sound off -- but for those rounds after you've done your 'thing' I recommend alchemical items up through about 9th level.
A tanglefoot bag that hits still lowers AC and attack rolls even if it doesn't pin them (and it could drop that wyvern out of the sky) -- and when it does pin them -- it is surprising how much it can take to get free.
Somewhat higher level I recommend wands of the following:
Ray of Enfeeblement -- even with the low DC you are still rather likely to reduce their attack bonus and damage.
Ray of Exhaustion -- two rounds at maximum and they really suck -- a -6 to strength and dex is no fun and being unable to charge can kill some opponent's damage output.
Enervation -- An excellent wand -- hurt them, make them suck, and make them easier to kill all at the same time.
Toppling Magic Missile -- so you deal damage to two creatures and maybe trip them -- also makes a good back up for casting too.
For other back up spells:
Grease -- Control the battlefield -- if nothing comes near the grease because the grease is there the spell has done its job.
Mount -- A mobile meat shield and flanking denier -- very useful.
Reach Chill Touch -- I know, "but it's only a d6 damage!" -- but it is more than that -- it is also strength damage, and it can work as a super fear against undead... which can be highly useful.
However I really do recommend the alchemical items. Unless your GM is regularly fudging rolls they will have much more effect than many will give them credit for.
If you can get one of them to hold still long enough, fireshield your tank. It's another 'contributing damage' spell where you're applying damage directly where it helps them most.
Personal spell - self only.
Karma.. I really thought you were pulling our leg, but I realize you're serious.
Sounds like you're doing a great job contributing to combats. Getting 2-3 guys to puke their guts out is roughly 2-3 rounds of a fighter full attacking to kill them. Nice job.
Next time change it up a little - stinking cloud, *then* glitterdust :)
And don't forget the whole time they are puking out their guts they aren't swinging on your team -- that means you save even more resources since your minio... allies don't need healing.
If you can get one of them to hold still long enough, fireshield your tank. It's another 'contributing damage' spell where you're applying damage directly where it helps them most.Personal spell - self only.
Bah. Last time I cast it was in 3.5, and then it was to throw around mass fireshield on those rare occasions everyone listened to me to wait one round before charging.
It is also important to know your opponents.You mentioned that you are up against barbarians. NEVER toss fort saves at them. That is, unless you have ways to insanely buff your spell DC, STINKING CLOUD on BARBARIANS is a BAD IDEA. If they are raging (and they likely are), will saves aren't the best idea either (raging gives them a bonus to will saves). By elimination, reflex saves are your best bet, although some barbarians may have decent dexterity too to shore up their AC, and there are fewer save-or-suck/die spells out there. But if your allies are having a relatively easy time hitting the opponents (i.e. infer that they have low dex and hence low reflex saves), resilient sphere might be an excellent choice to for temporarily removing particularly tough barbarians from the fight. And it also allows you to save your fighter if he's getting overpowered by the barbarians-remember that your fighter can willingly fail his saving throw, then drink down a few healing potions whilst in the safety of the sphere before you dismiss it (but doing it at the right time will mean the difference between his gratitude and pissing him off-when in doubt, just ask him if he needs a temporary respite).
Also, when in doubt, go for spells that have an effect even when a save is successfully made. For example, ray of exhaustion should be devastating against barbarians. Why? Because a fatigued/exhausted barbarian CAN'T RAGE. So if see one of the barbarians barking orders at the others (i.e. leader) or one of them looks particularly large and is the only one with a flaming falchion, a ray of exhaustion will hose him down significantly.
More than any other class, you need to be perceptive and smart. Consider what the enemy will be weak against, and pick up on clues. Have a varied arsenal to take advantage of those weaknesses. And have a few options that will always be useful (like haste-you're doing it right if you use haste).
If you can get one of them to hold still long enough, fireshield your tank. It's another 'contributing damage' spell where you're applying damage directly where it helps them most.Personal spell - self only.
Bah. Last time I cast it was in 3.5, and then it was to throw around mass fireshield on those rare occasions everyone listened to me to wait one round before charging.
It was personal in 3.5, but Mass Fireshield? Nice.
Yes, it was nice, when I got to pull it off. It was a group of primarily DnD youngbloods, by experience if not actual age. Initiative meant run into combat, especially with the houseruled '20 on the init die gives you a free round of combat' houserule.
That usually meant that before I got a chance to buff anyone with either mass fireshield or mass resist energy, they were engaged and out of formation.
So, I ended up looking for spells that could benefit them when tossed into combat.
Haste the OP already has, and is a good choice, though it doesn't need always be a round 1, unless the starting distance is enough that melee won't close without the +30 move.
Save for half or save for reduced effect are the best bets to fend off the ineffective feeling of spells. Identify Friend/Foe spells are the best to find, but tossing spells that your party is resistant to also works.
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It sounds like you are doing most of the combat outdoors in the desert with no real terrain. Which does limit many of the battle field control spells. It also sounds like you are only facing a few humaniods at a time, likely with decent saves which reduces how good save vs suck spells are.
But even under the best of circumstances this is a support roll type character. They rarely "shine" in that people say wow cool you did that. Mostly they do a lot of little stuff that makes a hard fight easy, that no one really notices until you stop doing it. Summon Monster is likely a good bet for the type of campaign you guys are in. They can intervene themselves between you and bad guys becoming obstacles of a sort. Plus they attack and take damage.
Create Pit is a pretty good spell. It causes a reflex save if cast under someone and one if they end up next to the pit. With it be 10ft deep per 2 levels, at your level you would hit the max which is 30ft. That would let the others use things like bull rush or even summoned monsters that can bull rush to try and push enemies into it or next to it. Since it is 10ft square and effects one square around it. you just created a 20ft wide area of terrain as well.
But as others have said invest in some alchemy items, wands etc as well. Use those when you get the battle field spells off and save your other spells for key situations.
Mathwei, you are my man! Things like that are why I wanted to play a wizard in the first place. I really am letting my character down by not familiarizing myself with all the spells out there. I think that is something guides should warn you about. You really should do the research into spells yourself too. You are required to be prepared for anything and everything. At once. Treantmonk's blue spells can't cover everything.
The biggest regret I made with this character was the spending of my money. I totally misjudged and underestimated the effectiveness of consumables and how I could have spent money on scrolls and wands and buying spells to add to my spellbook. I had like 6k at level 5 and I basically spent most of it on bracers of armor, ring of protection and I think an amulet of natural armor (I don't have the sheet on me).
I have to admit I came into this "thinking aww yeah I read the guides I have prepared all the right spells let's do this!" Relying on my diminuitive (relatively) spell selection and spells per day to carry myself and my party members to victory. Big mistake.
A wand of silent image, mage armor, shield, and/or magic missle, scrolls of see invisibility, dispel magic, knock, potion of levitate, gaseous form (aka: protection from tpk), and a few tanglefoot bags could totally have gone a long way it seems. Some of that uselessness comes from my spell preparation. I would have some "just in case" spells like feather fall prepared when a potion or wand is a much better idea.
So what spells do you get away with not preparing and just rely on a scroll or wand?
I know it depends on what's next that day, but why would one prepare mage armor over having a wand of it?
I have a lot to look over before next session!
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Thumbs up on Hydraulic Push.
The most fun I ever had as a wizard in 4th edition was movement spells of the sort where you'd do some piddling amount of damage -- but then knock them back into some nasty effect they had just been mauled by and had floundered desperately for turns to get out of (such as the Warlock's 'hunger cube').
"The teeth wanted you back! You tasted so good!" -- <punt!>
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....however, if you wanted "godlike" blasting power, an elven evoc sorc with stratospheric CHA was the plan, not wizard. (Why elf? Because their +2 racial to overcome spell resistance trumps the +1 bonus from a higher starting CHA they'd get as another race; and the bonus to DEX is useful for targeting and defense anyway. CON is actually a decent dump stat for a blaster so long as they know how to avoid full-attacks.) A sorc's Eschew Materials and non-need of a spellbook are coolness personified whenever modules (or DMs in general) get on a mess-with-the-wizards bent.
And, with bloodlines, you no longer have to be the "same" as every other sorcerer.
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1. So what spells do you get away with not preparing and just rely on a scroll or wand?
2. I know it depends on what's next that day, but why would one prepare mage armor over having a wand of it?Enumerated for ease of response.
1: Anything utility that fits should go in a wand or potion depending on cost efficiency. Knock, levitate, gaseous form, mage armor, etc.
2: Cost/Availability. Remember that for a wand of MA to last you all day, it's going to have to be CL8 or so, or you're going to have to burn multiple charges per day. Remember that it only has 50 charges and it costs a minimum of 750 gp a wand (more if it's higher caster level.) It may be unfeasible to maintain this for an extended duration. Also, if you're incapable of crafting said wand, you may run into availability concerns, as not all GM's endorse the magic mart idea.
Some omissions from your spell list I don't think were touched on:
Solid Fog (4th level), Calcific Touch (also 4th level, use with Reach Spell on Dragons predominantly. Much faster to hit their dex than burn through their hp.), Hideous Laughter (2nd lvl) can take low Will enemies out of the fight entirely, Hydraulic Push (1st lvl, APG) is nice for anytime you might have wanted to bullrush a badguy into your Walls or tentacles.Plus the aforementioned Black Tentacles, Enervation, etc.
Very true here but there's another oversight a lot of new mages make especially when first starting out, and that's memorizing all the spells you can. Don't do it, always leave 1 or 2 slots empty every morning for emergencies.
Remember it only takes 15 minutes to memorize a small portion of your total spells per day (you can mem about 25% of your total list in that time).This way you will ALWAYS have the free slots to cast whatever occurs outside of combat and never need to wait till tomorrow to cast any utility spell you have or if you have time to prepare before jumping the BBEG and discover he's vulnerable to x you can use it and be the superstar then.
I recommend having a card with the penalties for blindness all clearly listed and handing it to your DM as you cast Glitterdust. Lots of Barbarians making that save says to me, as a DM, that he's found it too complex to deal with. It's your responsibility to make save-or-suck easy to deal with when you cast it.
Second, I recommend researching Slow. That spell destroys melee guys, basically making them into slow zombies. They get a move or an attack and you can target a crowd and avoid your allies. Combine with Haste on your fellow PCs to make them feel like gods.
Third, web should be for opponents you suspect are good at Fort and Will. The goal is to always start with targeting the crap save.
Fourth, Black Tentacles are not the "Winning!" button they used to be, but they still mess up casters pretty good. Solid Fog's been bludgeoned with the nerf bat. Enervation's massive. Look up what a negative level does: cumulative -1 to everything, plus loss of 5 hp, plus loss of caster levels. Confusion and Charm Monster are also oodles of fun: make your enemy your ally!
Fifth, suggestion is a fun spell that allows for creativity. Major image is also creative... if your DM isn't biased against it. But, hey! You're a wizard, not a sorcerer. If it doesn't work out, you memorize something else tomorrow!
Sixth, I agree: Summon Monster's been souped up and is a good choice. It's also good when you're jonesing for some hot melee action. Combine with invisibility to allow you to maneuver/heal easily.
Seventh, I'd look closely at retraining some of your feats, the ones previously mentioned. I'd also make use of scribe scroll, although it depends on whether your DM ever lets your party get downtime, which it sounds like he doesn't. If he does, then craft wand's pretty good too.
8. Enlarge Person's a great cheap buff spell for one reason: it gives melee guys reach. If you're ever
9. I don't like Wall of Fire. With Wall spells, you want them to waste actions getting out through spells or damaging the wall. A lot of your BBEGs are just going to eat the piddling Wall of Fire damage. So, research Wall of Ice.
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Wait... you're playing a conjurer? Your school ability of Summoner's Charm is all about casting Summon Monster spell... lots... The Acid Dart is pretty pointless... but with the APG you can take the Teleport School and swap it out for the Shift power and (at level 7) be teleporting about in little 15ft jumps (3 + Intelligence modifier) times per day... as a swift action no less! Summoning + Invisibility + swift action teleporting is a good thing... You shouldn't need to be blowing those pre-combat spells on other defenses and, if the rest of the party is doing their jobs, shouldn't really even need the invisibility - chances are the bad guys have lots of other people (what with all those melee characters and summoned minions) to fight past to get anywhere near you!
but with the APG you can take the Teleport School and swap it out for the Shift power
I am playing the Teleportation School Variant. Between Shift and the Dimensional Steps power next level I will be a master of mobility. Shift has already saved me from a few attempted grapples and swim checks.
Our campaign is very combat and story heavy, but our refusal to help the evil pharaoh (and me avoiding conscription into his army) keeps us away from the few major cities in the desert. We do get some downtime when we are dealing with nomads but we are limited in trading goods. For the time being I imagine I am basically limited to crafting wands and scribing scrolls
Leaving spell slots open is a brilliant idea and something I never thought of! Especially for utility out of combat spells (levitate, knock, etc)
Web is difficult to cast in the desert because of the limited anchor points but it has come in handy in at least 1 fight.
So far I have compilied a list of spells I am going to be research. If there are others available I will certainly get those as well but this list represents the spells that you all reccommended me and spells I think would be very valuable.
Correct me if I am wrong though, but much like food and drink, as long as they are free and someone is offering you them, take them!
1st: Hydraulic Push,Burning Disarm, Infernal Healing
2nd: Summon Monster II, Summon Swarm, Create Pit, Gust of Wind, Shatter, Fog Cloud, Spectral Hand
3rd: Aquaeous Orb, Dispel Magic, Magic Circle against Evil, Protection from Energy,Sleet Storm, Gaseous Form, Slow, Shifting Sand, Ray of Exhaustion
4th:Black Tentacles, Remove Curse, True Form, Greater Invisibility, Enervation, Calcific Touch, Stone Shape, Mass Enlarge Person, Greater Infernal Healing
You know people give acid arrow short standings but it can be a really good spell against other spell casters -- no SR, no Save and if they go to cast it forces a concentration check. Maximizing can pay off good dividends and if you are willing (or capable) extending it can make it take even longer to get rid of. A DC 14+spell level check isn't easy for a lot of NPCs.