How can a longbow cost 75gp when the yearly salary of a trained craftsman is 100gp per year? A trained bowmaker would make many bows per year and thus make a way to big profit.
Close the book and walk away while you still can! That way lies madness.
However, if you must continue,
I would like to know, dear Paizo, how have you decided upon the price levels in the Pathfinder Core book?
The prices for basic goods, nonmagical gear, and such have not changed much since 3.0 Dnd, if not before (but I didn't play any earlier editions). Pathfinder prices come from WotC, not from Paizo's writers, so I doubt you will find answers here except for speculation. As far as that goes, I can only assume that they result from roughly equal inputs of half-baked armchair history, pricing for game balance, and whatever sounded good to the writers at the time. Perhaps a dartboard was involved at some point; that seems more likely than that economic calculations ever were.
D&D economy doesn't work since 1978. And it will never work, because of a lot of things, starting with a well-worded wish. People wrote PhD theses on how to fix it, so if you have way too much spare time, go for it :)
Got any links? Should be in their school's library, right?
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I suggest you avoid dabbling in comparing the real world to the game world in all aspects and especially the economy. Having said that the best estimate about income for an NPC class with the profession skill (which covers all work that is not crafting) is this:
According to the profession skill a trained worker will make 1/2 his profession check a week in gold. Going with a level 1 character with one skill point a wisdom of 12 (hardly high, but not low either), masterwork tools and his class skill bonus we have a +7 to his roll. Averaging a 10 he'll get a 17 on his check or about 8.5gp a week.
Now I've noticed that it seems like most NPCs are actually around level 3~5 and as such each level pass first would be .5 extra GP a week.
IF the NPC has skill focus on his skill (and why wouldn't he? After all he's not an adventurer skill focus on making more money makes sense for him) he'll make an extra 1.5 gp a week putting him up to 10gp a week.
Which is about in line with what you could do with a DC20 perform check in a week's time.
So for skilled labor/ anything covered by a profession I would go with the assumption that the "average" worker is making between 10~15 gp a week, or about 520~780 gp a year.
It can be applied to crafting as a crafted can also have profession merchant and skill focus in that.
It comes from this thread: buildings
[shamelessplug]
Here is a link to my gaming blog wherein I discuss my views on the DnD economy. It mostly just discusses how the math shakes out for the various ways to earn money in the DnD world aside from adventuring.
Which brings up the thing that breaks the DnD economy the most: magic items. I didn't even touch those.
[/shamelessplug]
one would assume many commoner farmers have their profession maxed. presumably these or the ones with skill focus win the prizes at the farmers fair every year.
for the record I believe many manufactured goods like weapons are supposed to be disproportionate to npc income. the economy only really breaks with magic items.
I also think most blacksmiths would have skill focus from their training and most other specailty producers.
I'll start to worry about the historical accuracy of the economics in dnd when someone shows me the wizard casting elemental body. do you honestly believe that magic would have no effect on the economics? Economics is barely understood as it is, then add magic in... [sarcasm]yeah I believe your calculations.[/sarcasm]
I am one day going to write a big big article about the economics of Dungeons & Dragons / pathfinder.
I would like to know, dear Paizo, how have you decided upon the price levels in the Pathfinder Core book? If it is purely based on price levels in previous DnD editions - how were different price levels decided upon back then?
I have done a lot of economics calculations based on material prices and wages of 15th and 21st century Earth and found some prices to be completely ridiculous. Generally weapons and armors seem to cost twice what they should, and bows especially are overpriced. Other prices in Pathfinder, however, seem to be spot on – if a Pathfinder gold piece is equivalent to a British Gold Sovereign.
How can a longbow cost 75gp when the yearly salary of a trained craftsman is 100gp per year? A trained bowmaker would make many bows per year and thus make a way to big profit.
In my campaign I have decided to halve the prices of all non-magical weapons and armors. This also has the advantage, that my players stop looting every single piece of leather armor and goblin Morningstar they find – and have to waste time carrying it.
The game is an abstraction, not a simulation. Introducing realism makes things worse generally speaking.
99% of us know the economy along with the ecology does not pass muster.
Creative Director
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RPGs have to do two things in this arena: They have to be believable at simulating a world, and they have to be workable as rules for a game. That sometimes means that when designers skew toward one of those over the other, the other ends up being less workable.
Pathfinder (and D&D before it, and all other RPGS) are first and foremost games. So it's toward the game side of things that things like economy HAVE to skew. That does mean that there's going to be some weird disconnects here and there.
In any case, we decided on the price levels for Pathfinder 100% based on the same prices in 3rd Edition D&D, because messing with the economy would have meant completely rebuilding how magic items are built, which would have even larger ripples on the rest of the game. We didn't WANT a game that was that different from 3rd edition D&D. Making a game that would have been that different would have, I suspect, been a tragic mistake.
Now that Pathifnder's become as popular as it is today... we can look at making some more drastic changes to things like the game's economy if and when we do a 2nd edition somewhere down the line in several years.
For now though... it is what it is. If that bothers you... go ahead and start tinkering with costs. I'd love to hear about the results, if only because that's the best way to evolve the game!
[shamelessplug]
Here is a link to my gaming blog wherein I discuss my views on the DnD economy. It mostly just discusses how the math shakes out for the various ways to earn money in the DnD world aside from adventuring.Which brings up the thing that breaks the DnD economy the most: magic items. I didn't even touch those.
[/shamelessplug]You factor commoners as Level 5.
Is that assuming 3.5 skill ranks?
So a level 5 commoner would have spent 1 point a level on profession?
Or is it Pathfinder, and assumes that they have spent 1 point a level on profession and are gaining the +3 Class skill bonus?
The post (and math) were built using the Pathfinder rules as the baseline. I never actually played DnD 3.5, having played 1st, 2nd and 4th editions before moving over to Pathfinder.
My assumption of a level 5 commoner was due to how things are done in the homebrew world I've built. Level 5 is the highest level an average person can attain. Level 8 is the highest an "exceptional" person can attain, with only heroes going beyond that.
The assumption was 1 skill point per level with the +3 bonus, but with very low stats, due to being a commoner. I assumed that the bonus +2 went to a physical stat (CON or STR) and not to WIS. (My reasons for that are discussed in this post.)
I'm not saying that I necessarily did all of my math right, but I went over the numbers a few times, getting the same results. If you are seeing an error, please point it out so that I can correct the content of this entry.
I am one day going to write a big big article about the economics of Dungeons & Dragons / pathfinder.
I would like to know, dear Paizo, how have you decided upon the price levels in the Pathfinder Core book? If it is purely based on price levels in previous DnD editions - how were different price levels decided upon back then?
I have done a lot of economics calculations based on material prices and wages of 15th and 21st century Earth and found some prices to be completely ridiculous. Generally weapons and armors seem to cost twice what they should, and bows especially are overpriced. Other prices in Pathfinder, however, seem to be spot on – if a Pathfinder gold piece is equivalent to a British Gold Sovereign.
How can a longbow cost 75gp when the yearly salary of a trained craftsman is 100gp per year? A trained bowmaker would make many bows per year and thus make a way to big profit.
In my campaign I have decided to halve the prices of all non-magical weapons and armors. This also has the advantage, that my players stop looting every single piece of leather armor and goblin Morningstar they find – and have to waste time carrying it.
I saw a good analysis in a sourcebook called the dungeonomicon.
Here:Economicon.
While not at all comprehensive, feel free to check out this article.
While not at all comprehensive, feel free to check out this article.
interesting, bookmarked for future perusal
While not at all comprehensive, feel free to check out this article.interesting, bookmarked for future perusal
Lemme know if you like it. :P
The economy of the game is intrinsically linked to challenge, CR, reward, XP, etc., and must be balanced as such. The notion that one can translate that game mechanic back into a real world currency is ludicrous.
You are doing your players a gigantic disservice by mucking with this. It's not real; let it lie. Leave the system alone so that your players can be duly rewarded for killing things.
Lemme know if you like it. :PWhile not at all comprehensive, feel free to check out this article.interesting, bookmarked for future perusal
Looks nice, seems like the system works out in the end after all. At least on the low side. As mentioned in the economicon, at some point its silly to trade in bits of metal at all. Id like to see how the PC's react to being payed in soul gems.