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Just curious about the design choice. Is it a holdover from the 3.5 SRD, or is there actually a 19th level warrior NPC somewhere that works better than say, a tenth level warrior/7th level fighter?
Been itching at the back of my mind, that.
Also, I never quite got the Adapt NPC class either. I like the intention, making a NPC spellcaster, but I think it might be best served by just giving someone with NPC levesl a level or two of wizard and/or cleric.
Why shouldn't NPC classes go up to 20th level? In a way, it doesn't really seem to matter how far NPC classes go.
According to the demographics I usually use, one out of every million Commoners is a 20th level Commoner; one out of every million Warriors is a 20th level Warrior; one out of every million Aristocrats is a 20th level Aristocrat.
Why isn't the 20th level Warrior a Fighter? Well, being an NPC, she did not say at each level "Hmmm, if I become a Fighter I get a bonus feat and Armor Mastery and Bravery and what not..." What she knows is that she's seen a lot of action in her life. She is not dedicated to the martial craft like the Fighters are, but does her part. She does not know what level she is, or when she gained a level. She's been through more battles than she cares to count, and she always seems to survived, and if you try to give her trouble, you will get it back.
Just curious about the design choice. Is it a holdover from the 3.5 SRD, or is there actually a 19th level warrior NPC somewhere that works better than say, a tenth level warrior/7th level fighter?
Been itching at the back of my mind, that.
Also, I never quite got the Adapt NPC class either. I like the intention, making a NPC spellcaster, but I think it might be best served by just giving someone with NPC levesl a level or two of wizard and/or cleric.
Because there was probably some game out there where the NPCs only went to 19th level. But 3.5/Pathfinder NPCs go to level 20.
Sorry just called for a spinal tap reference.
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Just curious about the design choice. Is it a holdover from the 3.5 SRD, or is there actually a 19th level warrior NPC somewhere that works better than say, a tenth level warrior/7th level fighter?
Been itching at the back of my mind, that.
Also, I never quite got the Adapt NPC class either. I like the intention, making a NPC spellcaster, but I think it might be best served by just giving someone with NPC levesl a level or two of wizard and/or cleric.
I'm not touching this discussion with a 10-foot pole.
I won't touch it with a ladder with the rungs knocked out and sold as TWO ten foot poles!
Why would anyone buy a 10' pole with holes in it? Wouldn't be a very stable pole.
Just curious about the design choice. Is it a holdover from the 3.5 SRD, or is there actually a 19th level warrior NPC somewhere that works better than say, a tenth level warrior/7th level fighter?
Been itching at the back of my mind, that.
Also, I never quite got the Adapt NPC class either. I like the intention, making a NPC spellcaster, but I think it might be best served by just giving someone with NPC levesl a level or two of wizard and/or cleric.
Because there was probably some game out there where the NPCs only went to 19th level. But 3.5/Pathfinder NPCs go to level 20.
Sorry just called for a spinal tap reference.
Ah... I wanted to make the Spinal Tap reference.
Why shouldn't NPC classes go up to 20th level? In a way, it doesn't really seem to matter how far NPC classes go.
+1. The NPC class charts are easily extendable, considering they don't really get any class features. The exception is the Adept, and the idea of a 20th level adept isn't particularly offensive to me (at least not any more offensive than a 20th level anything).
I heard that WotC 5th ed the NPC classes are going to go to 21 ist level. Sigh let the NPC class levels begin.
Adepts do seem to be underwhelming even when used at 5th level they just do not seem that challanging or useful and are not that much fun. Also it is not like it takes up that much space to add more levels to the npc classes since they get no features so if you want a really expirenced but not well trained warrior go ahead.
NPC classes give quick boosts to basic statistics without giving them much else. Likewise, if you follow the rules in the bestiary for determining CR for creatures, every 2 NPC levels add +1 CR to the creature. This means that giving an NPC +10 warrior levels increases the CR by 5, but it provides a fairly significant power advancement (it's BAB is now +10 points higher, its saves go up, its HP goes up, it gets some more skill points, etc).
In the case of adept levels, adept levels give a spell list, allows them to use magic items such as wands, can grant a familiar, etc, etc. Now, there is some confusion as to the CRs of NPCs in the core rules. The core rulebook suggests making the NPC's CR equal to level -2, but the numbers come off horribly awry. However, the bestiary gives much better guidelines when explaining to advance creatures, and seems to know more about setting a proper CR.
In addition, because of this 2 for 1 CR, NPCs can receive certain benefits by multiclassing NPC classes. A Fighter 2 / Warrior 6 is CR 4, but has a +8/+3 attack routine, and can get better returns on Power Attack, for example. In exchange, he's giving up his class features.
Alternatively, a Fighter 2 / Adept 2 / Warrior 2 / Expert 2 is CR 4, and has a +6/+1 attack routine, 4 feats + 2 bonus feats, a +6 fortitude and will save, a smattering of spells, a familiar, and a fair amount of skill points, and virtually every class skill you could imagine (if it's not on the fighter, adept, or warrior list, the expert can select it). In addition, he now has access to spells like lightning bolt via wands, which can be included as part of his equipment. In short, our hypothetical NPC has been padded for durability and given a lot of interesting if minor abilities.
As for going to level 20, that's so you can go higher and higher with stuff. Want a gnoll chieftain that is a physical powerhouse / tank, but you want him to be pretty simple? Well, 20 full levels of Warrior will leave him at about CR 11. Toss on another 20 levels of adept and you have a CR 20 super gnoll.
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What she said.
I like NPC classes because they can be used to beef up a creature/encounter without making it overly complicated. If I add 5 barbarian levels to an ogre now I suddenly have to start thinking about Rage Powers and archetypes. I can add 10 warrior levels for the same CR adjustment, get more HP to work with, and not have to worry about anything beyond feats.
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What she said.
I like NPC classes because they can be used to beef up a creature/encounter without making it overly complicated. If I add 5 barbarian levels to an ogre now I suddenly have to start thinking about Rage Powers and archetypes. I can add 10 warrior levels for the same CR adjustment, get more HP to work with, and not have to worry about anything beyond feats.
What he said.
+1
Creative Director
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The reason the NPC classes go to 20 is because ALL base classes go to level 20.
I seriously doubt we'll ever do an NPC in print in a Golarion product who's only got NPC class levels all the way to 20... and in some cases (commoner!) we'll probably never go above 5th level (now someone will prove me wrong with a citation... have at it!).
But that doesn't mean that NO one can do this. Pathfinder is for more than just Golarion. It's designed to support ALL possible fantasy RPGs, and that means that in some games, 20th level NPC classes might make sense.
So they're there for those games.
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I seriously doubt we'll ever do an NPC in print in a Golarion product who's only got NPC class levels all the way to 20... and in some cases (commoner!) we'll probably never go above 5th level (now someone will prove me wrong with a citation... have at it!).
Well, since you ask: Ven Vinder, Commoner 7, in Sandpoint. :)
Well, since you ask: Ven Vinder, Commoner 7, in Sandpoint. :)
I seriously doubt we'll ever do an NPC in print in a Golarion product who's only got NPC class levels all the way to 20... and in some cases (commoner!) we'll probably never go above 5th level (now someone will prove me wrong with a citation... have at it!).
That is still not that high above 5th level.
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Creative Director
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Well, since you ask: Ven Vinder, Commoner 7, in Sandpoint. :)
I seriously doubt we'll ever do an NPC in print in a Golarion product who's only got NPC class levels all the way to 20... and in some cases (commoner!) we'll probably never go above 5th level (now someone will prove me wrong with a citation... have at it!).
Well done.
We'll probably never go above 10th level for commoners, then. Prove me wrong THERE!
I humbly submit that the BBEG of an upcoming adventure path be statted out as a 20th-level NPC class with PC wealth or possibly a template of some kind. That should be roughly CR 18ish, which is on par with previous "grand finales."
Actually, the rules say that PC wealth is equivalent to +1 CR (likely based on action economy theory), which is about right. Likewise, a 20th level NPC class is only about CR 10.
If you want them to only have NPC classes, you'd do best to combine them with racial hit dice, or continue advancing in NPC levels past 20 hit dice, which can indeed make them much scarier. As described earlier, an NPC with 20 levels of warrior and 20 levels of adept is about CR 20, and would have statistics about like this...
Averageguy the Awesomesauce CR 20 (3 Point Buy)
N Human Warrior 20 / Adept 20
Hp 440 hp (20d10+20d6+260)
Fort +30, Ref +23, Will +29
+5 Glaive +45/+40/+35/+30 (1d10+20/x3)
With Power Attack +37/+32/+27/+22 (1d10+44/x3)
+5 Composite Longbow w/Rapid Shot +37/+37/+32/+28/+22 (1d8+15/x3)
With Deadly Aim +29/+29/+24/+19/+14 (1d8+31/x3)
Str 30, Dex 18, Con 20, Int 13, Wis 19, Cha 7
Base Atk +30, CMB +40, CMD 64
Skills: Acrobatics +44, Climb +33, Knowledge (Arcana) +6, Knowledge (Religion) +6, Knowledge (Nature) +6, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (Architecture/Engineering) +6, Knowledge (Planes) +6, Knowledge (History) +6, Knowledge (Local) +6, Knowledge (Nobility) +6, Spellcraft +24, Survival +9, Swim +33, Use Magic Device +38
Feats: Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Blind Fight, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Multishot, Improved Familiar, Lunge, Step-Up, Nimble Moves, Acrobatic Steps, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft Ring, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Combat Expertise, Defensive Combat Training, Toughness
NPC Gear Value (20th Level Heroic NPC): +5 Glaive, +5 Composite Longbow (+10 Strength), +6 Gauntlets of Strength, +6 Headband of Intellect, +6 Amulet of Health, +6 Belt of Dexterity, +6 Helm of Wisdom, +5 Cloak of Resistance, 29,805 gp remaining
Adept Spells Prepared, CL 20th
Orisons (3) - Detect Magic, Purify Food & Drink, Create Water
1st (4) - Comprehend Languages, Obscuring Mist, Protection from Evil, Protection from Good
2nd (4) - Mirror Image, See Invisibility, Resist Energy x2
3rd (4) - Animate Dead, Deeper Darkness, Neutralize Poison, Remove Curse
4th (4) - Stoneskin, Polymorph, Restoration x2
5th (2) - True Seeing, Heal
Or something like that. :)
The question you should be asking is why do they ONLY go up to 20th level? I mean, I know I want to see an epic level commoner!
The question you should be asking is why do they ONLY go up to 20th level? I mean, I know I want to see an epic level commoner!
I would say because of space. The core rules, while not directly supporting epic level play, do in fact give rules for continuing the game infinitely. They are found in the gamemastering section, though it suggests that most campaigns should be wrapped up by 20th-25th level.
You could, in fact, use those same guidelines with the NPC class levels. A 40th level adept would again be about CR 20, for example. However, the adept would now have access to spell-slots higher than 5th level, which could be used for metamagic feats. His/her caster level would also be a whopping CL 40, which means punching through spell resistance would be trivial, and dispelling the adept's spells would be futile (except with mage's disjunction which would say "screw you caster level" :P).
Meanwhile, a 40th level warrior would be a melee powerhouse. Their attack routine would be about +55/+50/+45/+40 with a 30 strength and +5 weapon. With power attack (-12 to hit!) it would be +43/+38/+33/+28 for +36 damage! Combat Expertise would be nice to, since the +12 dodge bonus would be quite impressive.
Level 25 commoner plows his fields LIKE A BOSS!
...and from the shadows steps farmer Phil Pickett! "So ya'll figured it was me who planned it all!", he exclaims as he points his magical pitchfork, ellie, at the party
"And I would have gotten away with it, if it hadn't been for you kids!"
Can someone point where it says that CR of an NPC = level/2 ? My book says level-2, huge difference.
(Pag.398 Corerulebook / Gamemastering / Adding NPCs: "A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept—see page 448) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2".
And that CR doesn't match its actual power.
Actually, I mentioned this a bit further up. Basically the creating NPC section in the Core Rulebook suggests CR-2, which is entirely great if they're 1st level NPCs (results in CR 1/3), but it quickly falls apart if you try to go much higher, as you will find them completely off the mark when compared to similarly CRed enemies.
Instead, I would suggest using the rules for advancing creatures found in the Bestiary (or Monster Advancement in the PRD). It explains the steps and formulas used to increase the CR of a creature with class levels, and honestly, there's virtually no difference between advancing a gnoll or troll than advancing a human, just the human's base CR is either 1/3 (NPC classed) or 1/2 (PC classed). The Bestiary rules give a much, much more accurate gauge of power (which makes sense because it's specifically the book for monsters and challenge ratings). Likewise, the bestiary book says to give the NPC treasure appropriate to a heroic character with a level equal to its challenge rating.
Thus a CR 3 NPC should have gear that is equal to a level 3 heroic NPC.
It works far, far more accurately. And if you're concerned as to the RAW aspect, specific trumps general, and the bestiary is specifically for dealing with the CRs of creatures (and creatures are NPCs).
...and from the shadows steps farmer Phil Pickett! "So ya'll figured it was me who planned it all!", he exclaims as he points his magical pitchfork, ellie, at the party"And I would have gotten away with it, if it hadn't been for you kids!"
"...and your dumb dog"
I agree that med and high level NPCs should have lower CRs, but that 1/2 level rule is as inaccurate as the original level-2 (level-1 using PC wealth and level-3 with poor equipment), in my experience.
Actually, it's pretty accurate. I ran the numbers a while back when I noticed the inconsistency, and I posted some of the results on the board. A 20th level warrior using Power Attack and 10th level NPC gear is pretty well in line with CR 10 creatures.
About RAW, the CoreRulebook specifically says "Creatures whose Hit Dice are solely a factor of their class levels and not a feature of their race, such as all of the PC races detailed in Chapter 2, are
factored into combats a little differently than normal monsters or monsters with class levels." There can't be such a big difference between one method and the other.
Actually, the difference is huge. If you go by the Core Rulebook "Level minus X" guidelines, you end up with very low CR creatures with super huge amounts of treasure. Using the 20th level CR 10 warrior as an example, if you went with the level -2, it would suggest that his CR was 17, and he should have 58,500 gp worth of gear. However, he's only about as strong as a CR 10 creature, so he'll die quickly and drop waaaay too much loot.
However, at CR 10, with 12,750 gp, it's much more reasonable in terms of reward vs effort, and would have gear equivalent to a creature with double treasure (but most of his treasure would likely be gear and consumables, which are sold at half price).
Furthermore the rules for monsters with class levels won't produce the same stats, and follow additional rules: "Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature’s CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature’s CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature’s original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature’s CR for each level added)added). Creatures that fall into multiple
roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the
class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never
considered key.". NPC classes don't appear in the Bestiary table but are non-key.
Monsters with Class Levels gives general guidelines regarding which core classes add directly to a monster's abilities based on its role. Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.
Thus, npc class levels are never considered key. Unlike class levels, they never become key. Thus every +2 warrior HD adds +1 CR. This is actually a very elegant way of doing things, and you end up with pretty accurate results. In many ways, adding NPC levels are like adding generic hit dice to a creature, except it's specialized slightly in a specific direction.
If you want an example, I can run the numbers for you and post 'em up here. However, you could also look at the CR 20 NPC with 40 levels that I posted earlier, and compare him to a pit fiend or balor to decide his general strength, if you'd like. You should find he's much closer to the expected CR 20 range.
Okay, a post about epic level NPCs gave me an idea for a new goddess. I don't have a name for her, but she is the goddess of Warriors.
She started out as a 1st level Warrior. She did not want to fight, but she had to because her land was beset by invaders. As she continued through one military campaign after another, she gained levels, but never had the inclination to hone her martial talents as Fighters, Rangers, or even Barbarians do. She just became a 20th level Warrior, then a 30th level Warrior, then a 40th level Warrior... finally she became so good that other Warriors could pray to her for inspiration and Clerics could pray to her for spells. She is even now fighting off the diabolical hordes of a archdevil intent on conquering a section of the Plane of Concordant Opposition.
Okay, a post about epic level NPCs gave me an idea for a new goddess. I don't have a name for her, but she is the goddess of Warriors.
She started out as a 1st level Warrior. She did not want to fight, but she had to because her land was beset by invaders. As she continued through one military campaign after another, she gained levels, but never had the inclination to hone her martial talents as Fighters, Rangers, or even Barbarians do. She just became a 20th level Warrior, then a 30th level Warrior, then a 40th level Warrior... finally she became so good that other Warriors could pray to her for inspiration and Clerics could pray to her for spells. She is even now fighting off the diabolical hordes of a archdevil intent on conquering a section of the Plane of Concordant Opposition.
That actually sounds like a pretty cool idea for a deity. Someone who never wanted to fight, and was never intended to be a hero, but survived and survived, and fought and fought, until she became an inspiration to everyone and ascended to godhood.
You think maybe a level 60 Warrior? ^.^
I'm not sure where her divine powers come from. Probably something campaign specific, but as a 60th level warrior, he base attack would be a whopping +60/+55/+50/+45 or +42/+37/+32/+27 with Power Attack. And Wowza, that Power Attack would be hitting for +54 damage per swing. Very nice. :D
Okay, a post about epic level NPCs gave me an idea for a new goddess. I don't have a name for her, but she is the goddess of Warriors.She started out as a 1st level Warrior. She did not want to fight, but she had to because her land was beset by invaders. As she continued through one military campaign after another, she gained levels, but never had the inclination to hone her martial talents as Fighters, Rangers, or even Barbarians do. She just became a 20th level Warrior, then a 30th level Warrior, then a 40th level Warrior... finally she became so good that other Warriors could pray to her for inspiration and Clerics could pray to her for spells. She is even now fighting off the diabolical hordes of a archdevil intent on conquering a section of the Plane of Concordant Opposition.
That actually sounds like a pretty cool idea for a deity. Someone who never wanted to fight, and was never intended to be a hero, but survived and survived, and fought and fought, until she became an inspiration to everyone and ascended to godhood.You think maybe a level 60 Warrior? ^.^
I'm not sure where her divine powers come from. Probably something campaign specific, but as a 60th level warrior, he base attack would be a whopping +60/+55/+50/+45 or +42/+37/+32/+27 with Power Attack. And Wowza, that Power Attack would be hitting for +54 damage per swing. Very nice. :D
Beatified. Sanctified. Patron saint of warriors. Demigod attached to some greater deity of war. Grows in popularity (and power), moving up the divine food chain. My primary church only has three gods. And a couple of score major saints with their own holy orders, etc. (and the gods know how many obscure / minor saints). Probably just aquired another major saint. Say... Saint Joan :) Thanks!
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Why isn't the 20th level Warrior a Fighter? Well, being an NPC, she did not say at each level "Hmmm, if I become a Fighter I get a bonus feat and Armor Mastery and Bravery and what not..." What she knows is that she's seen a lot of action in her life. She is not dedicated to the martial craft like the Fighters are, but does her part. She does not know what level she is, or when she gained a level. She's been through more battles than she cares to count, and she always seems to survived, and if you try to give her trouble, you will get it back.
Hah! For some reason this made me think: "Wedge Antilles is a 20th level Warrior!" :P
I once had a Spelljammer setting in which ship's captains could take leadership and get crewmembers who could mulitclass between adept, expert and warrior.
In 3.X, a level of each gives you enough skills to be a space sailor, proficiency with weapons and armor, and a few useful spells for ship duties and whatnot. With the way skills work in PF, it's even better.
An adept 1/expert 1/warrior 1 makes for a good all-round shipmate.