I've been playing AD&D 1st edition with my 10 year old daughter and we recently switched to Pathfinder. It's been going great, but now she's expressed the desire to read the books herself, and a part of me cringes everytime she picks up the Bestiary. I keep waiting for her to read about the Ogre and ask me, Daddy, what's necrophilia? It hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time.
BTW, I personally love the adult themes in Pathfinder, stuff like the temple to Calistria in Absalom with elven prostitutes - it's something you'd never find in mainstream Hasbro owned WOTC - I'm just wondering if I should keep the books away from my kids or not. I don't mind the sex stuff so much, it's just the necrophilic cannabilistic incestuous ogres that bother me a bit.
I've been playing AD&D 1st edition with my 10 year old daughter and we recently switched to Pathfinder. It's been going great, but now she's expressed the desire to read the books herself, and a part of me cringes everytime she picks up the Bestiary. I keep waiting for her to read about the Ogre and ask me, Daddy, what's necrophilia? It hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time.
BTW, I personally love the adult themes in Pathfinder, stuff like the temple to Calistria in Absalom with elven prostitutes - it's something you'd never find in mainstream Hasbro owned WOTC - I'm just wondering if I should keep the books away from my kids or not. I don't mind the sex stuff so much, it's just the necrophilic cannabilistic incestuous ogres that bother me a bit.
I would restrict whatever you deem to be appropriate to be restricted, and tell her that parts of the book are for grown-ups are something similar.
Of course she may question the sudden restriction.She may think it is icky, but I don't think it will scar her. If it really bothers you though I would go with my first idea, and explain the reason the best you can.
Chances are if you refuse to explain something or restrict her she'll Google it and that could result in a traumatised child.
Tell her Necrophilia is doing evil things with dead people and she'll probably accept it.
Naturally, some things are not for children's eyes. May I suggest post-it notes, or pick her up the beastiary in PDF form and 'erase' certain words from the pages via black pen (binding the printed pages into a folio so that she can take it everywhere, and I am fairly certain that PDFs can be adjusted to censor certain words, although I am not certain about this with Pathfinder Tech thrown into the mix!).
It's something I used to do for the Under-15 group I DMed for, covered all the 'good bits' with print-outs of the Awesome Face to make the censorship more 'fun', and also edited out any text that could have caused Angry Absent Parent Rage.
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Let me start out with this caveat - you know your child best, so take the rest of this with a grain of salt.
I think its safe for her to look at the various RPG focused books, such as the core rule book, bestiaries, ultimate books, etc. Depending upon her maturity and curiosity level she may gloss over the portions of the descriptions that you cringe over. Remember, when you read them, they stand out as a red flag, but for her they do not have the same meanings attached so she may pass over them.
If she does ask, you can answer the question honestly but not embellish the details. How do you answer her question where do babies come from at age 5, 10, 13, 16, etc.? As an aside, this is a terrific way for both of you to become comfortable discussing difficult topics in the future. You will lose the awkwardness that certain topics entail, and she will learn that you will always try to answer any question she asks with honesty.
As far as the adventure paths go, that is a different story. There it is much harder to not run headlong into topics you may not be ready to discus. I suggest giving those books a few more years before giving her access. You can put on your GM hat for that one and tell her they contain spoilers.
Not passing any judgement here...this just got me thinking, my child is going to grow up very different than others. The idea of editing words like necrophilia out of her potential vocabulary never occurred to me...
I'll be running Basic D&D but I dont think I'll dodge this bullet either
Why? What's wrong with Basic D&D?
She is 10 years old, playing RPGs, and interested in reading the books. Something you have to remember, is from what information you have given us, she seems to be pretty mature for her age.
I have always been more mature than my age. Something my mother did, was when I questioned something, she would answer me truthfully, and like I was an adult she was talking to.
This made me respect her because I was not just getting "kiddie" answers from her. Which in turn laid the groundwork for me to go to her with more questions. Our dialog grew quickly, until it reached a point where she was no longer having to hold back with how detailed she answered me, because she fostered maturity in me by our conversations.
Protecting your children is your number one concern, and only you can judge how much detail to give her. However, do not throw away this opportunity to open that dialog with her. Answer her questions with a maturity level she deserves, and you will be able to instill in her a maturity level that will save you from countless problems in her future.
Just my two cp worth.
She is 10 years old, playing RPGs, and interested in reading the books. Something you have to remember, is from what information you have given us, she seems to be pretty mature for her age.
I have always been more mature than my age. Something my mother did, was when I questioned something, she would answer me truthfully, and like I was an adult she was talking to.
This made me respect her because I was not just getting "kiddie" answers from her. Which in turn laid the groundwork for me to go to her with more questions. Our dialog grew quickly, until it reached a point where she was no longer having to hold back with how detailed she answered me, because she fostered maturity in me by our conversations.
Protecting your children is your number one concern, and only you can judge how much detail to give her. However, do not throw away this opportunity to open that dialog with her. Answer her questions with a maturity level she deserves, and you will be able to instill in her a maturity level that will save you from countless problems in her future.
Just my two cp worth.
Actually I've always considered myself very liberal in this regard - I don't try to censor stuff and let her pretty much read or watch what she wants. Still you have to admit the entry on the ogre pushes the limit.
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I think the core books and the bestiary should be fine. I let my kids read those. I also allow them to read Kobold Quarterly (generally). I don't let them read my White Wolf books and I try and peruse other gaming books before I give them over - mainly for questionable artwork. Words like necrophilia don't bother me. They'll either ask or gloss over it and if they ask, I prefer having the opportunity to explain things in terms suited to their age category rather than having them go elsewhere.
Actually I've always considered myself very liberal in this regard - I don't try to censor stuff and let her pretty much read or watch what she wants. Still you have to admit the entry on the ogre pushes the limit.
Well, I agree it's gross, but I read lots of gross stuff when I was a kid. I'm not sure what the worst case scenario is. I'm so disgusted that I have nightmares and I never play D&D/Pathfinder again? Or I decide necrophilia is awesome and I'm warped for life? I don't think either of those outcomes would have been likely from reading the Ogre description, but every kid is different, I suppose.
I have always been more mature than my age. Something my mother did, was when I questioned something, she would answer me truthfully, and like I was an adult she was talking to.
+1 FTW. I have four kids - 24, 17, 10, 6. They *all* play or have played D&D with me & my wife. In fact, the 17yo is pretty much my gaming right-hand man. The younger three have all been at the gaming table since before they could talk. So that said, I can understand where the OP is right now.
We've never "talked down" to any of our kids. Usually, our house has been too small to allow for much in the way of private conversations anyway. The 10yo has been a CSI junkie for as long as I can remember, and so has become exposed to a rather wide range of concepts by it. I suppose, since we homeschool, this takes the place of "peer-presented learning" that occurs in public schools. If something pops up, we do like Sidious' mom did - honest answers, but without going into a lot of detail.
And wow - I *wish* my 10yo was interested in reading the rulebooks! Now, the 6yo has started doing so...but the 10yo is content to have it explained to her and just memorize it by ear. *sigh*
Nothing but again, sooner or later she'll want to read some of the other books etc, besides RPGs eventually raise mature questions and touches on so many topics, the least of which is voilence.I'll be running Basic D&D but I dont think I'll dodge this bullet eitherWhy? What's wrong with Basic D&D?
Comeing from a non-parent here just somebody trying to help.
I would like to recommend the early Forgotten realms novels. yes there were novels not involveing everybodies favorite dark elf.
The Darkwalker on the Moonshea series is in my opinion perfect for a 10yr old because it has a very strong female charecter as well as a gripping storyline.
The only objection I could see is that later in the story robin lays with tristan and when he asks her to marry him she says no because druids are forbidden to marry. She tells him that she will gladly be his lover but never his wife becuase she would rather be a druid than a queen.
Several battles and books later queen robin and her daughters defend the moonsheas again to help rescue the imprisoned king.
I think the series is good for pree-teens as well as adults because it has all the fantasy elements of unicorns,dragons,the undead,and epic battles as well as heroic deaths but none of the violence,sex or adult content is dwelled upon.
The same can be said for the harpers series,the nobles series and the preist series. also the cleric quintet is a fine read.
If you also want non game related fantasy authors my personal favorite is mercedes lackey. The only warning about her valdemar novels is the mentioning of healthy homosexual realtionships mixed in with regular heterosexual relationships. Other than that the psionic police and celestial ponies are a good read.
Hope this helps some.
And wow - I *wish* my 10yo was interested in reading the rulebooks! Now, the 6yo has started doing so...but the 10yo is content to have it explained to her and just memorize it by ear. *sigh*
You sigh about that? If my kids start memorizing the rulebooks "by ear" when they're 10, I'll be thrilled!
Well, she's the "mutant" in the family - my parents were voracious readers, my wife's parents were voracious readers, she and I are both voracious readers, the other three kids are, as well. In fact, in all honesty, the 6yo is a far better reader than the 10yo. The 10yo is simply interested in stuff *other* than books and I have trouble remembering you don't *have* to be a bookworm to be normal and healthy! :D
Actually I've always considered myself very liberal in this regard - I don't try to censor stuff and let her pretty much read or watch what she wants. Still you have to admit the entry on the ogre pushes the limit.
First off, good for you for letting your daughter have her own mind, and explore things at her pace. Its much easier to guide the child, when the hand doing the guiding is not doing so forcefully.
I will give it to you, that the first paragraph of the Ogre entry is rather colorful in its vocabulary. Break it down however, there are what, four words that are the root of this problem?
I will presume that if she has seen at least a few episodes of the local evening news, things like murder, brutality, and to an extent, savagery, are all words that, even though probably not in her common vernacular, she knows the base concepts behind.
Torture, mutilation, and dismemberment, would be a step above those first three mentioned. Again though, if the previous three are known, and understood, then explanation of these three words should stem from the previous base line established, and there should be very little difficulty in their explanations.
So that leaves the final four big ones. Cannibalism, in and of itself is a detail oriented word. Killing is a broad term, consumption of flesh is a broad concept, however the killing and consumption of one's own species is a rather advanced concept. It can be rephrased, however, to an extent where it merely elicits the "eww" response, and that is the end of the discussion.
The final three however, are the hardest to discuss with a child of any age. Merely for the fact that they all deal with a sexual action. Has the subject of sexuality been discussed at all yet? Does she have any concepts that can be used to help explain these ideas? There is no "right" way of broaching the subject with a child.
My personal experiences were unique. I was a science freak when I was a child. I owned numerous medical encyclopedias. I knew the human anatomy for both males and females by the time I was 10. For me the subject was approached early on, and in a very clinical manner, because that was my maturity level.
That is how it worked for me. How it will work for your daughter will be different. Because of my love of science, and the knowledge of medicine, I had a baseline my mother could use when speaking to me about the subject. Do you have something like that you can use with your daughter? Or are the interactions between males and females, like kissing, still explained with just the love concept?
If there is no baseline to work off of, then perhaps your hands are tied with either approaching the subject with her, so she understands, or withholding the information from her until she is old enough to talk about it. Is 10 years old the right time to start having the "birds and the bees" conversation with your daughter? Maybe this is is how you can start. "There is a right way and a wrong way to love people. Those words exemplify the wrong way to love someone." As she grows older, she can be given more details on how they are wrong.
I abhor restricting knowledge from anyone, however in this case, if the subject is too sensitive to approach at her current age, you may be forced to use the parental cop-out of telling her it is just "bad things bad people do." Once she is ready to understand the concept of love, and sexuality, then the subject can be approached again.
I think you should not allow your daughter to read the Beastiary....well just two small reasons why I think you should think about.
1)The Bestiary is for the DM...a player should not just read thur it. I know I might be old fashion in this...and it was the 1st ed MMs that got me into gaming...but I believe there should be a divide between Player info and the GM's info.
2) While yoiur daughter might be able to handle things like nercophilia...can you saay the same about her friends? I mean...do you really want a phone call from the school or a class mates parent about your daughter using the word necrophilia? Or if a friend's parent does not want to explain to their child what necrophillia is.
I mean sure raise you daughter how you like...but remember your child does not live in a vacuum.
Now if you daughter is mature enough to censor herself in public...than it might not be a big deal.
I think the way to explain necrophilia to a ten year old is this:
Did you see that part in Snow White where she's lying in a glass coffin, and Prince Charming comes up and kisses her her on the lips? Wasn't that kind of gross because she was, um, dead?
That's necrophilia. It's just grosser with the ogres because the ogres are not Prince Charming and the corpses they kiss aren't as pretty as Snow White.
P.S. If she's read Hansel and Gretel, she's already familiar with cannibalism.
I think you should not allow your daughter to read the Beastiary....well just two small reasons why I think you should think about.
1)The Bestiary is for the DM...a player should not just read thur it. I know I might be old fashion in this...and it was the 1st ed MMs that got me into gaming...but I believe there should be a divide between Player info and the GM's info.
2) While yoiur daughter might be able to handle things like nercophilia...can you saay the same about her friends? I mean...do you really want a phone call from the school or a class mates parent about your daughter using the word necrophilia? Or if a friend's parent does not want to explain to their child what necrophillia is.
I mean sure raise you daughter how you like...but remember your child does not live in a vacuum.Now if you daughter is mature enough to censor herself in public...than it might not be a big deal.
Well that's the thing, she GMs now. I'm originally from the states but live in Moscow where I teach English. Amongst my students are some triplets, age 11 and my daugter helps me teach them - I teach each of them one on one for 45 minutes and while I'm doing that she plays with the other two. Bored of teaching grammar and and not having any progress I started playing AD&D and now Pathfinder and they went from hating English to loving it and now they ask my daughter to GM when I'm teaching the others, and she does a hell of a good job I must say and is much more creative then I am.
Actually, I agree with some of the other posters that's she's not likely to even notice the parts she doesn't understand - fortunately I haven't noticed any other entries as graphic as the Ogre.
I think the way you explain necrophillia to a ten year old is thus...
"It's a form of sexual deviance where someone performs a sex act with a corpse. It's pretty universally considered taboo (or against the rules) by all cultures, and most people would consider someone who does it to be very crazy."
I don't understand the issue people have. Would you censor a dictionary?
I think the way to explain necrophilia to a ten year old is this:
Did you see that part in Snow White where she's lying in a glass coffin, and Prince Charming comes up and kisses her her on the lips? Wasn't that kind of gross because she was, um, dead?
That's necrophilia. It's just grosser with the ogres because the ogres are not Prince Charming and the corpses they kiss aren't as pretty as Snow White.
P.S. If she's read Hansel and Gretel, she's already familiar with cannibalism.
When I was a kid, I just looked words up in the dictionary. Saves time and embarrassment from asking: "Mom, what's 'satyriasis'?" (From the AD&D DMG, natch.)
Actually, I agree with some of the other posters that's she's not likely to even notice the parts she doesn't understand - fortunately I haven't noticed any other entries as graphic as the Ogre.
By everything you have said, the soundest suggestion to be given is take a chance. Probability says she will skip over the parts she does not understand. Once she understands, she will fill in the blanks.
Less probably chance, she will ask questions. At which point you can, and will, come up with something that will appease her, while keeping the disturbing details away from her.
Final chance, she might surprise you, and show you how mature she is with knowing \ understanding the concepts. At which point, congratulate yourself for some very fine parenting.
WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
reminds me of thyat simpson episode
Director of Brand Strategy
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You may also consider starting her with some of the fiction. Other than one case of, well, necrophilia, in Prince of Wolves, there's not much in those as offensive as the Grauls in RotR. If a novel is more than she could handle in terms of length, the web fiction or even the serialized Pathfinder's Journal stories in the APs are a great place to start.
Against all obviousness, she's 10 years old. That is not exactly a little child any more. If she's been playing DnD for a while, she is familiar with the good-evil dichotomy. I think she'll be able to understand if you explain that some evil creatures do evil and detestable things. Nobody expects you to go into gory details.
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Creative Director
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Exactly.
Every parent needs to make the decision on what is and isn't appropriate for their children to read, and Pathfinder, which very DEFINITELY skews toward mature topics, is a game that you'll need to make that call on.
Using myself as an example, I started reading Stephen King at about age 10 (give or take a year), with Dean Koontz and Clive Barker shortly thereafter—all after being introduced to these writers by my grandmother. All three of those authors more or less leave Pathfinder in the dust when it comes to adult content, so I've obviously got a skewed perception on what is and isn't appropriate for a kid to read... but I tend to err on my mother's take—If the kid's reading on his/her own, that's the important part!
What's necrophilia, you ask? Well, remember Bella and Edward from those Twilight movies...
Well from the vampire PoV that is vitaephilia.
Well that's the thing, she GMs now. I'm originally from the states but live in Moscow where I teach English. Amongst my students are some triplets, age 11 and my daugter helps me teach them - I teach each of them one on one for 45 minutes and while I'm doing that she plays with the other two. Bored of teaching grammar and and not having any progress I started playing AD&D and now Pathfinder and they went from hating English to loving it and now they ask my daughter to GM when I'm teaching the others, and she does a hell of a good job I must say and is much more creative then I am.
Actually, I agree with some of the other posters that's she's not likely to even notice the parts she doesn't understand - fortunately I haven't noticed any other entries as graphic as the Ogre.
Ok if she GMs...that my 1st oint is moot.
But my second point still stands. Though living in Moscow might mean even the parents might not know what necrophilia is.
What's necrophilia, you ask? Well, remember Bella and Edward from those Twilight movies...Well from the vampire PoV that is vitaephilia.
From the Vampire's point of view, that example is another type of -philia that reserves you a special place in Hell, along with people who talk at the theater.
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From the Vampire's point of view, that example is another type of -philia that reserves you a special place in Hell, along with people who talk at the theater.What's necrophilia, you ask? Well, remember Bella and Edward from those Twilight movies...Well from the vampire PoV that is vitaephilia.
+1
You have to remember that mature content often goes over the heads of young'uns. I read the Dragonlance books when I was 10, and never realized what was happening in the 'boot scenes' until years later.
Ok if she GMs...that my 1st oint is moot.
But my second point still stands. Though living in Moscow might mean even the parents might not know what necrophilia is.
"Necrophilia" is a cognate in the Russian language, so I'm sure that they would know it if they heard it. :)
On Topic:
I have a 13-year-old daughter who oftentimes asks questions about the same concepts. Her mother and I usually explain what it is in an academic way, or look it up and read the definition to her.
To date, anything "gross" has been deemed so and not asked about again. <grin>
Wow..
Everyday, I find more reasons why I love pathfinder. More violence and schemes than the namby pampy DnD stuff was. Even the book of vile darkness wishes it can be as evil as pathfinder.
I mean after all, we have in the APG a spell you have to cut off parts of a dead thing to make a treasure map. I can just imagine bards standing on top of a pit "It puts the lotion on it skin!" as they prep a person to become a map.
Wow..
Everyday, I find more reasons why I love pathfinder. More violence and schemes than the namby pampy DnD stuff was. Even the book of vile darkness wishes it can be as evil as pathfinder.
I mean after all, we have in the APG a spell you have to cut off parts of a dead thing to make a treasure map. I can just imagine bards standing on top of a pit "It puts the lotion on it skin!" as they prep a person to become a map.
And yet I consider pathfinder a PG-13 as far as mature content goes. Much like Mr Jacobs, I started reading, Barker, Koonts, King, et al., at a youngish age (12). I am the person that advocates reading as many of WW's Black Dog Publishing Books as possible when looking at evil, addiction, drug effects, sexual fetishes and the like.
Hence the best advise I can offer is try and know where your kddos are coming from/ are as people so you can address what you need to.
I remember that when I was about ten, I read Katherine Kerr's fantasy series, and I remember very clearly that there was quite descriptive text of incestous pedophilia, rape and necrophilia in it. It fascinated me a bit, but not really scarred me as far as I know. On the other hand, I grew up to be quite a freak, but I don't think that book had anything to do with it.
I don't think you need to worry, generally. At today's age, with internet and all, she'll probably see freaky s*~& you didn't knew exist until your mid twenties before she's hit 14. I think it's better if she gets a natural way to talk to you about things like that, as mentioned above. If you can't talk to her about it specifically, the suggestion of saying necrophilia is "doing nasty stuff to corpses" as mentioned above is a sound one - whatever you do, you shouldn't go the "don't read those parts" route, since if you do, she'll read them anyway and then google image search it. Which obviously is worse.
Also, if you're open to her with stuff that "nasty" and get a good connection with her on such matters, I think there's a larger chance that she'll listen to you if you someday at a later age decide there's something that she shouldn't see/do. The less you invoke the "parent forbid" clause, the more serious she'll take it when you really need to do that.
I don't have kids, though, so I may be out in the wilds when it comes to this. I do however remember my youth quite well, since I'm not that old yet, and I remember what my parents did right and what they did wrong.
Maybe I'm just especially warped, but would "people that love corpses" really be that bad? Sure, it's disturbing, but it's not vague enough to make them curious, while still not too explicit. And it's gross enough that they won't want to know any more.
Since you are asking for advice… I vote for:
1) Let her read the books. Tell her that if she wants to avoid seeing things that can never be unseen, don’t Google words she does not know. She should ask you.
2) When/if she asks, be honest. For example, ‘It’s when someone has sex with a corpse.’ (I doubt she will need to be explained that it is just not cool. If she does, I can’t help you. You’re own your own, sorry :( ) Then assure her that this type of thing won’t be seen in the games you play with her until she is older so, she need not worry about it popping up. [There is just no way to state that last bit without it looking like I’m making a sick pun. I’m sorry. I tried, I really did.]
PS: Oh, just putting it out there… can we have the ‘is necrophilia really so bad’ discussion in another thread please - one that’s not about what’s appropriate for a 10 year old to read?
PS: Oh, just putting it out there… can we have the ‘is necrophilia really so bad’ discussion in another thread please - one that’s not about what’s appropriate for a 10 year old to read?
Or appropriate for anyone with a brain capable of moral discernment?
My advice as a parent: Don't seek parental advice from total strangers via the Internet.
PS: Oh, just putting it out there… can we have the ‘is necrophilia really so bad’ discussion in another thread please - one that’s not about what’s appropriate for a 10 year old to read?
Who started that discussion?
And I disagree, Mark. It's no more foolish than asking Abby, and generally more accurate.
Maybe I'm just especially warped, but would "people that love corpses" really be that bad? Sure, it's disturbing, but it's not vague enough to make them curious, while still not too explicit. And it's gross enough that they won't want to know any more.
"People that play with dead bodies."
It's accurate enough for a child's understanding. That the play also includes a sexual element isn't really important. Heck, if she runs a game, the ogres in that world might play dead-elf-head-basketball, you never know.
What's necrophilia, you ask? Well, remember Bella and Edward from those Twilight movies...
Or if you remember this... Buffy and Angel, because they did it better!