The Reach Evolution

[Miryam]

How, exactly, does this work?

It says that a single "attack" gets reach. Do only natural attacks count, or can weapon attacks receive reach as well? It's not a "natural attack form" like Improved Damage, so if it's applied to claws, it only affects one claw and not the other?

[j b 200]

Miryam wrote:

How, exactly, does this work?

It says that a single "attack" gets reach. Do only natural attacks count, or can weapon attacks receive reach as well? It's not a "natural attack form" like Improved Damage, so if it's applied to claws, it only affects one claw and not the other?

When It says a single attack it means one of his natural attacks, i.e. his tail whip has reach, but his bite and claws do not.

[Nigrescence]

j b 200 wrote:

Miryam wrote:

How, exactly, does this work?

It says that a single "attack" gets reach. Do only natural attacks count, or can weapon attacks receive reach as well? It's not a "natural attack form" like Improved Damage, so if it's applied to claws, it only affects one claw and not the other?

When It says a single attack it means one of his natural attacks, i.e. his tail whip has reach, but his bite and claws do not.

I read it as ONE claw attack gets reach. You'd need to take it twice for both claws to get reach.

Also, there's no reason why a bite could not have reach, but yes it only applies to one single attack. It doesn't even apply to all attacks of the same type. Only one claw could get reach with one Reach Evolution, and you'd need to take the Evolution an additional time for every single attack that you'd want to gain Reach. Want both claws to have it? Take Reach twice. Want one Bite and one Tentacle to have it? Take Reach twice. Want both Claws and one Bite to have it? Take Reach thrice.

At any rate, it's only a natural attack, since no Eidolon comes pre-fused with weapons naturally or even through any Evolution.

EDIT: Though I see no reason why a limb with the Reach Evolution on a claw couldn't be used to wield a weapon and also benefit from that reach aside from just declaring that it can't be so. I'd say it evens out. An Eidolon would have to invest Evolution Points into it, which are a valuable resource. So an Eidolon, in my opinion, should be able to be a Biped, with two Reach Evolutions, one for each claw, both holding a two-handed weapon with reach, and benefit from reach given by the Reach Evolution as well as reach granted by the reach weapon. Now, some may say that there are more optimal builds for your Eidolon, but I like the style and flavor of it, and I don't think it would need to be ruled out, especially since it's probably not optimal.

[Mauril]

I've always read that the Reach evolution basically augments one of the other evolutions, namely one of the other attack evolutions. Applying it to any set of attacks that come in pairs (wing buffet, claw, rake) means that both gain reach. If you have an eidolon that has, say, two sets of arms each with claw attacks, the reach evolution would need to be taken twice to apply to all four claws. This is also how Hero Lab treats the evolution.

Because the evolution only applies to other attack evolutions, you can't put it on the "arms" evolution, granting the eidolon reach with weapons. You can only get natural reach with weapons by using the Large evolution.

[Miryam]

Clearly we need an official answer or errata. How does PFS play it?

[ancientdm]

So an Eidolon, in my opinion, should be able to be a Biped, with two Reach Evolutions, one for each claw, both holding a two-handed weapon with reach, and benefit from reach given by the Reach Evolution as well as reach granted by the reach weapon.

I find this part of your premise the most interesting, it would seem that if the eidolon had two arms (each with reach) he could swing a "TWO HANDED" weapon and gain reach with it. Now if he has a two handed weapon in each hand I would think he would be at some sort of minus in addition to that suffered for the off hand/secondary weapon since one of the requirements to use a two handed weapon is to have two hands free. Or is that another change in the rules I haven't discovered yet? I am new to pathfinder and constantly find my assumptions do get overruled. Would be nice to know in case I haveto resolve the whole two handed argument.

[Nigrescence]

ancientdm wrote:

I find this part of your premise the most interesting, it would seem that if the eidolon had two arms (each with reach) he could swing a "TWO HANDED" weapon and gain reach with it. Now if he has a two handed weapon in each hand I would think he would be at some sort of minus in addition to that suffered for the off hand/secondary weapon since one of the requirements to use a two handed weapon is to have two hands free.

I mean to say that both hands are used to hold one two-handed weapon, not that each hand has its own two-handed weapon.

Sorry if that seemed unclear. I can see how that was poorly worded on my part.

[William Bradshaw]

Nigrescence wrote:

j b 200 wrote:

Miryam wrote:

How, exactly, does this work?

It says that a single "attack" gets reach. Do only natural attacks count, or can weapon attacks receive reach as well? It's not a "natural attack form" like Improved Damage, so if it's applied to claws, it only affects one claw and not the other?

When It says a single attack it means one of his natural attacks, i.e. his tail whip has reach, but his bite and claws do not.

I read it as ONE claw attack gets reach. You'd need to take it twice for both claws to get reach.

Also, there's no reason why a bite could not have reach, but yes it only applies to one single attack. It doesn't even apply to all attacks of the same type. Only one claw could get reach with one Reach Evolution, and you'd need to take the Evolution an additional time for every single attack that you'd want to gain Reach. Want both claws to have it? Take Reach twice. Want one Bite and one Tentacle to have it? Take Reach twice. Want both Claws and one Bite to have it? Take Reach thrice.

At any rate, it's only a natural attack, since no Eidolon comes pre-fused with weapons naturally or even through any Evolution.

Actually in ultimate magic it subtly says all attacks of the same type gain reach.

If you read abolith base build it says....

25 points: Base Form aquatic; Primary Evolutions reach (tentacles), tentacles (2); Secondary Evolutions basic magic (ghost sound), huge, large, major magic (minor image), minor magic (silent image), tentacles (2), ultimate magic (major image).

It uses the plural of tentacle when describing reach and does not mention it again for any other tentacles implying that it is added to them all.

[David knott 242]

What is all this talk about taking the Reach evolution more than once? Nowhere does it say that this evolution can be taken more than once, so it can't.

[Son of the Veterinarian]

David knott 242 wrote:

What is all this talk about taking the Reach evolution more than once? Nowhere does it say that this evolution can be taken more than once, so it can't.

You can take it once per attack. Take it for your bite attack, then take it again for your tail, but you can only apply it once per attack. So no taking it twice and getting a ten-foot bite attack.

Nigrescence wrote:

EDIT: Though I see no reason why a limb with the Reach Evolution on a claw couldn't be used to wield a weapon and also benefit from that reach aside from just declaring that it can't be so. I'd say it evens out. An Eidolon would have to invest Evolution Points into it, which are a valuable resource. So an Eidolon, in my opinion, should be able to be a Biped, with two Reach Evolutions, one for each claw, both holding a two-handed weapon with reach, and benefit from reach given by the Reach Evolution as well as reach granted by the reach weapon. Now, some may say that there are more optimal builds for your Eidolon, but I like the style and flavor of it, and I don't think it would need to be ruled out, especially since it's probably not optimal.

This is what I did, took the Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword feat and Reach for my Biped Eilodon.

[Clebsch GM]

I have a related question. If a medium size eidolon has a reach evolution for an attack, does this work like a large creature in that it can attack either squares 5 feet away or 10 feet or is it like a reach weapon that can only attack at 10 feet but not five feet?

My take would be that it can attack either 5 or 10, similar to a large creature.

Edit: Actually, on further thought, it might be different for different attacks. A horn that can gore would have to be 10 feet but not 10 unless the horn were on something like a snake form. But I would think the bite of a snake with reach (part of the serpentine base form) would be able to attack at 5 or 10 feet.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

Getting reach always works like a creature with natural reach unless it says otherwise like reach weapons do. So yes, at 5' or 10'.

[Clebsch GM]

Thanks.

[Scrawl Da'Wall]

It irks me that that one of my favorite classes is banned from many groups mostly because of broken eidolon builds.

Reach (Ex): One of an eidolon's attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon's reach with that attack increases by 5 feet.

1. Reach applies to only one attack not to an attack type. If you add reach to claw it only applies to one claw attack not all claw attacks.

2. Reach can only be added to your build once.
As of now there does not seem to be an official ruling on whether you can add it once to a build that gets reach as a free evolution.

3. Reach does not stack. If your DM allows you to add reach to a build with the free reach evolution.

4. As of now there is no official ruling on whether you can use reach on one arm to give a one handed weapon attack reach. Ask your DM.

Other common fixes to broken eidolon builds.

Improved natural attack does not stack with improved damage evolution.

Eidolons do not get Two weapon fighting feat they get multi weapon fighting feat.

If an Eidlon uses a manufactured weapon all of his natural attacks become secondary attacks.

Without Multiweapon fighting feat an eidolon gets -10 to hit with more than one weapon attack.

A weapon attack replaces one of their natural attacks.
(So no 14 armed Eidlons getting 14 weapon attacks & 4 natural attacks per round)