Allow me to pick your collective brains if you don't mind, but *raises a hand* I like planar monsters. I've created a number of them over the years, and I'd love to snag some feedback from folks as to which extraplanar creatures you've used in your campaigns and in what capacity, and which planar monsters you really like or really don't like (and why/why not).
Edit: I mostly mean outsiders. Archons, demons, daemons, agathions, sceaduinar, etc.
Humor me if you would (or quasits will come after you. Little known fact: I have a small, trained army of them). ;)
(FWIW this isn't directly related to any current projects of mine)
The shorter list would probably be which ones I haven't used, which includes agathions and proteans, but only because they haven't been around long enough for me to actually incorporate them into a game.
I've used elementals as shock troops, guardians, and summoned cannon fodder. The evilly aligned elemental creatures I've used as independent baddies in their own right. I'm particularly fond of salamanders and belkers (very pleasantly surprised they made it into the Bestiary 2...when the original belker art was used in the Bonus Bestiary to portray the allip, I'd presumed they weren't OGL).
The upper planes creatures I tend to use as PC allies or heralds of the gods. Occasionally they get placed as guardians over the site of some great evil, leading PCs to have to defeat them or convince them to let them pass and take out the evil themselves (hard sell on one with an LG alignment.) Once I had a fallen deva as a recurring foil for a group of PCs...one that left the female PCs a bit hot and bothered, too. ;-)
Inevitables are fun. Nothing like a couple of marut out to hunt down an undead rogue to spice things up. (The fact that he'd just joined the party made for some interesting dynamics, especially after they found out he was the reason they'd been attacked in the first place.
Demons and devils...what haven't I used these bad boys for? They're the pinnacle of evil. My homebrew world is a post-holocaust environment exactly because of the foul influence of these fiends. The gods laid down an interdiction that cut off all access to the lower planes in order to save the world from complete destruction. This left a lot of pissed off fiends stuck on the world, many of them in other forms. When they die they can't return home, so possessions are common (Advanced Bestiary to the rescue!).
I'm also very fond of retrievers and bebiliths as big bads. Something about spidery outsiders just does it for me, I guess.
One outsider I've never used often is the couatl. While I've always found it aesthetically pleasing, its powers and abilities never really found a niche in my games. It just sits in the monster compendium gathering dust. It's never even shown itself as a summoned monster. Poor thing.
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Devils and Demons are staples in my games. More than goblins, drow or undead.
I've not really used the "Good" Outsiders as much -- PCs are the good guys, afterall. But I use them occassionally.
I'm sure that, over the years, I've included an occassional non-Demon or Devil Outsider as a "monster" but I really can't say when. Pretty sure I've never used one as a BBEG. And not the Yugoloths, er, Daemons, either.
I think the game could use an adventure where a group of non-Demons or Devils evil Outsiders are the bad guys. Something like the Proteans in LoF #4 (or was it #5?).
The players in my homebrew campaigns know that there are three staples in my game: devils, demons and undead.
I frequently utilize an Archfiend as an "enemy-of-my-enemy" or "lesser of two evils" type of ally who manipulates the PCs a lot. Oddly, no one ever plays a paladin in my games... Too much moral ambiguity, I suppose.
The last Planescape game I ran involved a "friendly" chat with a baernaloth. This was basically your fault.
I like planar monsters.
I never would have guessed that Todd. ;)
I'd love to snag some feedback from folks as to which extraplanar creatures you've used in your campaigns and in what capacity, and which planar monsters you really like or really don't like (and why/why not).
My likes: While I haven't used any yet, I am really liking the new Bestiary 2 outsiders. The Ceustodaemon and the Cacodaemon will be making appearances soon as support for a spellcaster. Cestrodaemon will be his heavy hit men while Cacodaemon will be his familiar. They will be less roleplaying with them and more "give the fighter something to hit" role. I'm considering having a few inevitables and proteans duking it out, trying to pull the player's kingdom one way or the other (whether they want them or not).
Dislikes: reused Devils and Demons. Many of these from B1 have been around for most of 3E and plenty have been around since 1E. The ones I've used no longer strike fear or awe into the hearts of players.
extra planar monsters are an incredible source of fun as a player.
As as wizard I have used the formarian workers alot.
I have created a spell thats allows a symbiotic relationship with a glimmerskin so that a wizard can melee like crazy and gets most of the benifits but only gets half exp for the encounter because the glimmerskin gets the other half.
I have used energons both pos and neg to great effect as a mage.
I find the 3.5 summon monster list way too restrictive so I work with my DM and swap stuff our level for level. It is still the same CR but adds alot more flavor than just summoning the same ol howler or lantern archon as every other wizard.
As a druid pretty much the same thing because creatures from the elemental plane of wood are cool and unusual.
If you really want to distract some foes or even destroy a town then summon the bacchi from MM2. Those party animals never stop partying and think of the damage that can be done to a town when the party never stops.
Druids can benifit alot from summoning the elemental weirds,the other wordly fae or any number of animals from the outer planes.
One spell I developed allowed a druid to contact a elemental weird and bargain answers much like the summon dragon spells. The cost was much lower but stil a very effective means of giving the druid his own version of contact other plane.
Those are some of my ideas.
Allow me to pick your collective brains if you don't mind, but *raises a hand* I like planar monsters. I've created a number of them over the years, and I'd love to snag some feedback from folks as to which extraplanar creatures you've used in your campaigns and in what capacity, and which planar monsters you really like or really don't like (and why/why not).
Edit: I mostly mean outsiders. Archons, demons, daemons, agathions, sceaduinar, etc.
Humor me if you would (or quasits will come after you. Little known fact: I have a small, trained army of them). ;)
(FWIW this isn't directly related to any current projects of mine)
I like outsiders as a DM, and hate to play against them. I don't use a lot of the good ones except as plot devices though.
The deamons are new to me, but I do like them. I never used the Yugoloth due to lack of support. I just have not had enough time to use them on a regular basis. I like devils more than demons due to their scheming, but if I want to fight I will normally choose demon.
Specific favorites: I like the bone devil and ice devil due to the number of attacks. For demons I like the Glabrezu, Maralith, and Balor. The maralith has a really good combination of SLA's and martial prowess.
I want to like the barbed devil, but it just is not threateing enough for its CR. IIRC it only has 2 claw attacks that dont do a lot of damage. The Vrock is a classic monster, but they just don't feel threatening on their own, and by the time you can use a lot of them the PC's are strong enough that they really don't matter all that much.
I would like more info on the greater demons and devil that are on par with Dukes of Hell, Demon Lords, and so on if Paizo ever decides to expand on such things I hope they hand it off to you.
edit:I like elemental too, particularly fire and earth. The earth elementals are hit pretty hard for their CR, and that is a good thing.
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Been fond of planar beings since coming into the game with 2E. And Planescape. Mmmmmm-mmm.
Was always particularly fond of the azatas/eladrin, angels/devas, demons, modrons, kytons. Mariliths and planetars have long been my favorites of the bunch.
And moingos. And mephits. Also, genies. (I'll take the shaitan over the dao any day of the week) And the rilmani, but only the Planescape versions...not the 3.x versions...yeesh. And baernoloths. Those guys just struck a chord. A very creepy one. Demons and devils were bad news, but everything about the baernoloths just struck me as wrong, right down to the art.
Outsiders I don't like? Eh, it's hard to find one I have an actual dislike for. I'm not very fond of the sceaduinar, if only because it pushes the negative-energy-related-things-are-evil meme.
Outsiders I really wish there were more of? Or in some case, any at all? Frightening/unsettling/ugly good-aligned angels and other celestials would be very nice to have. I've harped on that elsewhere, but it would be nice to have some exemplars of "dark is not evil" and "beauty doesn't equal goodness" on Team Good's side. Even Planescape didn't have a lot of that, but they at the very least had the black-oily guys from the LG planes in that role.
My players stay out please
Planetar, ghaele, and tome archon became the trinity of primary good-aligned gods covering a united spectrum of CG, NG, and LG. Fallen solar took his place as the primary NE "devil" figure. Kyton and succubus took over on LE and CE. Three rilmani became the CN, N, and LN deities of creation, magic, and death respectively, until the CN deity up and disappeared and left his duties to his twin son and daughter.
I've also long wanted to run another world where:
*Marilith was inspired heavily by Jaramanda from the Hellbound boxed set, who was noted as being terrified of death after the demise of her sister(the one in the comic). This marilith would be driven by fear of death and what unknown truth waited for her there, hence the pursuit of godhood as a sure fire way to remove that risk.
And then devils would start up a counter invasion through nations that would go the way of Cheliax, since they would think the demonic invasion was Blood War related, and eventually to stop a demon from ascending to godhood.
And there would be a baernoloth stoking the flames of it all.
Celestial interference would be minimal since the planet was unusually plane-locked, making it nearly impossible to get on or off the planet except by dying. So almost all outsiders have to enter the world via transmogrification with mortals, along the lines of what was talked about in Ravenloft: Von Ricten's Guide to Fiends, which I absolutely loved as a flavorful means for fiends and the like to enter Prime Material world. I wound up taking that idea and making it the standard for my original homebrew world.
Matters would escalate to the point that some of the native mortals would seriously consider summoning the Tarrasque(as a sort of champion of the Prime Material) as a good idea.
edit-I've never really like how standardized certain things became for outsiders in 3.x, or how many creatures got lumped into the outsider type, like tieflings and aasimar. I've always broken away from that in my games, keeping things like the Silent Hour for lilends and other such elements best handled on a case by case basis rather than saying "this is how it works for all outsiders", whatever "it" may be.
The last few posters have raised a valid point about the Vrock and the Barbed - waaaay 'undercon'.
Happy to use them, but you need to sort of throw out the CR system to do so for those encounters.
I throw out the CR concept entirely :)
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I also like planar monsters! I frequently play as them or run campaigns where large numbers of PCs are some type of outsider. Would a tally of what planar monsters I've used be of any use to you? If so, here one is:
Just going from what I remember (which could be off)-
Outsiders I've Played As A PC-
1 Axiomite
1 Young Axiomite
1 Young, Fiendish Axiomite
1 Fiendish Kolyarut
2 First Blades
1 Advanced, Crystalline Sandman
1 Imp
1 Uniila
1 Arbiter
1 Azer
A Soulbound Doll that was in the employ of Hell (It doesn't exactly count, but the guy had so many extraplanar ties I'm throwing him on the list)
Outsiders that have been PCs in my campaigns-
~20-30 Tieflings (By far the most common PC race in campaigns I've run.)
2 Young Tieflings
1 Advanced Tiefling
1 Young, Advanced Tiefling
2 Aasimar
1 Young Meladaemon
1 Astradaemon
1 Young Astradaemon
1 Glabrezu
1 Balor
1 Ogre Mage
1 Ephialtes Kyton
1 Salamander
1 Arbiter
1 Earth Elemental
1 Kyton
1 Lillend
Outsiders that have been PCs in campaign's I've played in-
1 Fiendish Air Elemental
1 Solar of Legend (with other templates I'm unaware of)
1 Lantern Archon
3 Tieflings
2 Young Tieflings
1 Arbiter
1 Couatl
That Horse (It had so many templates...)
2 Hound Archons
1 Young Hound Archon
1 Advanced Glabrezu
1 Shadow Demon
Outsiders that have been NPCs in my campaigns (not counting random stock monsters from fights... there's too many of those)-
1 Leukodaemon
2 Hezrou
1 Glabrezu
1 Bdellavritra
2 Noble Efreeti
3 Succubi
1 Treerazer
2 Deinzens of Leng
1 Hound of Tendalos
1 Deimavigga
1 Pit Fiend
1 Cornugon
2 Barbazu
1 Wendigo
2 Shadow Demons
1 Marilith
1 Axiomatic Marilith
1 Dretch
1 Solar
1 Noble Marid
3 Noble Shaitan
1 Dust Mephit
1 Barghast
1 Ogre Mage
1 Sandpoint Devil
1 Shining Child
1 Adhukait
3 Rakshasha
1 Janni
1 Bebilith
1 Keketar
2 Nanuet
1 Imantesh
1 Solar
3 Vrocks
1 Fiendish Octopus
1 Invisible Stalker
1 Astral Deva
2 Planetars
1 Axiomite
1 Pairaka
1 Sepid
Outsider NPCs I'm waiting to use-
1 Nihiloi
1 Purrodaemon
1 Ephialtes Kyton
1 Ifrit
1 Young Noble Shaitan
1 Arcanotheign
1 Ayngavhaul
1 Oread
Outsiders that have been major NPCs in capaigns I have played in-
2 Planetars
1 Pleroma
1 Meladaemon
1 Young Meladaemon
1 Astradaemon
2 Vrocks
2 Ogre Mages
1 Rakshasha
1 Earth Elemental
1 Noble Shaitan
1 Marut
Outsiders I am particularly fond of-
Axiomites- I love the 'living cloud of math' idea, like playing strongly lawful beings, and just am pleased with the race in general; I'd love to see more related lawful outsiders.
Pleroma- It's one of the most awesome creatures I've seen added to the game in a long while, both in appearance and in power set.
Shaitans- I hold an odd fondness for the Elemental Plane of Earth and like Paizo's take on its genies.
Devils in general- I enjoy playing organized, lawful villains (though not exclusively).
Outsiders I dislike-
There aren't really any I strongly dislike. I guess I was somewhat disappointed with the Jyoti and Sceaduinar when their stats finally came out. I was thinking the Jyoti woudl be a bit stronger and more awe-inspiring given the whole 'keep most gods out of the positive energy plane' thing, but it wasn't a huge disappointment and I do like the outsider in general. The alignment of the Scaduinar caught be off guard in a negative manner; I was expecting them to be true Neutral from what I'd read of them, and I wasn't (and still am not) too keen on their being stuck in an 'evil' alignment slot.
Outsiders I don't really use a ton-
Agathions- They're pretty new to Pathfinder and I haven't found any compelling points to add them into adventures I'm running. They don't hold the same draw that some of the other outsider types do to me, and I tend to gravitate toward angels instead of them when looking for a Neutral Good outsider to play as or use.
Azatas- Though not as attention-starved as Agathions, I haven't used these a ton either. I'm finding using them more appealing as more types get added.
Qlippoths- Too new; I haven't found a good place to introduce them yet.
I may add more comments later about my general likes and dislikes in outsiders (as well as more details on some of this stuff).
Edit:
I like Proteans better than Slaad. I sort of liked Slaad, but they didn't strike me as being as interesting as Proteans do (though I'd like to see more types of Proteans).
I like Aeons much better than Rilmani. The Aeons in general are awesome, with the Pleroma being of particular note.
I like Daemons better than Yugoloths, though I keep liking Yugoloths more as I hear more about them from their old Planescape days. I only really knew them as their 3E mercenary selves; I played back in 2E, but I avoided Planescape even though I liked planar settings a lot due to my strong dislike of the cant (and the general condescending tone it was often spoken in) and minor dislike of the factions and the emphasis placed on them pretty much completely turning me off of the setting. In retrospect, I'm liking Planescape more and more and occasionally pick up old products that I never bought for it back in the day.
I suppose I like Agathions a tad bit better than Guardinals due to some of the new types adding variety. They're about the same in terms of how much I like the general theme.
I like the Azatas more than I liked the Eladrin because they now incorporate things that aren't just 'extraplanar elves', now having the Lillend, Lyrakien, and Brijindine in their ranks.
I like the Kytons being their own subtype, and I like that new types of Kyton are coming out. I hope to see more in the future.
I like the Qlippoth roughly the same amount that I liked the Obyriths, though I'm more familiar with the Qlippoths since I wasn't playing much during that point in 3.5.
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I like to use daemons / yugoloth, more as the 3E flavor mercs of doom and death as opposed to soul eating end of days monsters. Having extraplanar guys who are just there to kill whatever if the price is right (or you if its wrong) fits alot of the games I run well.
Archons seem to be the only upper planes outsiders I tend to use often, mostly because they're lower level in general than angels. Having CR2 and CR4 (good) extraplanars is helpful when you dont want a Planetar or some other CR10+ angel acting as a patron to the party.
Devils also are more favored in my bestiary than demons, simply because I like Barbazu and Erinyes.
The outsiders I don't care too much for are:
Agathions / Guardinals: Too much anthropomorphic animal for my liking.
Azatas: Their flavor just doesn't compel me to use them over angels or archons.
Axiomites: Yes I know modrons are closed content, but they're much cooler.
Proteans: Meh... Slaadi were cooler.
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As a player, I took a conjuration-focused sorcerer to epic level, Sorceror/Malconvoker/Monk (for a cheese feat from Complete Scoundrel).
And I've summoned it all. Planar binding, even Gate. From the lowly Fiendish Squid (for a ride when swimming) to the mighty Horned Devil. I've even gated a Greater Aspect of Dagon once to solo a boss encounter. I've summoned a squad of literal healb+~@~es to keep the party alive during an epic encounter.
As a DM, I love Demons. I love the cosmology of the abyss, the myriad forms of demonkind, the wonderful "invasive" thing they have going that lets them literally do anything from sickening corruption to infiltration to brute destruction.
I'm also a big fan of the odd outsiders, like the Shining Child of Thassilon; monsters like that, so outside the normal cosmology of the game, are what really sold me on Pathfinder early on, when I was running RotRL.
I've been trying to figure out a way to use the Proteans as a compelling enemy for an adventure, but havent put much brainstorming time into it.
(Also, I'm really dissapointed in the art for the mind-range protean in the bestiary 2, the goofy blue cartoon thing. The red featered raptor-snake from Legacy of Fire was way, way cooler.)
The extraplanars I employ regularly as a PC include the dretch, the lantern archon, the lemure, silvanshee as familiars, imps as familiars, lillends, and trumpet archons.
The Lemure and Dretch make excellent meat shield summons at lower level and can offer some decent damage as well. Lantern Archons at spell level 3 and above constantly give me more damage output than a 'blasting' spell of same level and the spell like/spells of the lillend and trumpet archons are extremely valuable at higher levels of play.
As to the evil outsiders:
I generally turn up my nose at them as both a player and a gm:
They tend to lack "umpf" as far as monsters go with the following problems:
1. Too quick to drop, for some reason (paladins, banishment, dismissal) they fall much to easily and quickly.
2. Inoffensive -- extremely easy to hedge out, and lacking spell like abilities that are likely to see actual regular use, as well as having 'meh' attack routines just makes all the demons/devils/daemons/etc blur together to me.
3. Too predictable -- oh wow, another demon/devil/whatever of "x"? And just as uninspired as the last one! How quaint... not really -- after all the abilities generally remain the same, with the same predictable 'blood lust' or 'foul form' or 'desire to corrupt and destroy'... I mean okay some of that is to be expected -- but they are just so simple.
4. Too predictable -- yes again -- only this time from a role play perspective. Honestly it's like, "evil outsider appears, taunts party offers tainted aid for service rendered, betrays party, fights party, loses and swears eternal vengeance" -- You don't get much more cliche than evil outsiders appearing in adventure paths. Beyond that perspective (as a GM) for a player it is the exact same thing. Simply not worth it to deal with them in any other way than at sword tip sending them back to the outer planes.
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The good outsiders have some of the same problems -- but generally there are few enough of them, with a large enough spread of different abilities and means to go about things that it doesn't seem as in your face.
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The chaotic, lawful and pure neutral outsiders simply lack too much role play options to really be viable in all but the rarest corner cases. They aren't numerous enough in type, and are generally to unyielding in fluff position to really be of value in a role playing situation without really knowing the players (or gm).
I prefer extraplanar critters that either match up to the HD caps for the planar ally/binding spells or I cobble together my own using templates. Nothing says 'nasty' like bound half-fiendish dragons of the appropriate HD in my experience.
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I also like outsiders, but I like them to be rare and unusual - when an outsider shows up in my campaign (one that wasn't summoned by the PCs) then something special is happening.
I appreciate that the Bestiary 2 went out of its way to flesh out the selection of planar alignment creatures. Why, just the other day I needed an outsider to guard a site in the astral plane and I was able to pull out an Aeon that fit perfectly.
Outsiders rock.
Especially Proteans. Unlike those slaadi sell-outs, proteans are actually CN, not CE most of the time.
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I like lower HD critters, since my games don't get much past 8th level, generally.
Some sort of demons, devils, daemons between the imp/quasit/dretch level and the bigger stuff. CR 3 to CR 6 ish is kind of a ghost town. 'Grunt' fiendish soldiers that aren't as heavy-hitters, could be neat, sort of like the fiendish equivalent of orcs, gnolls and ogres. (Which, granted, I can just invent by slapping the fiendish template onto an orc, gnoll or ogre...)
On that tangent, different templates for abyssal, infernal, daemonic, archonic, angelic, azatan, etc. creatures, instead of shoehorning them all into celestial or fiendish, would be cool.
The various outsiders, IMO, lack strong themes. Legacy demons and devils are just all over the place. A set of evil outsiders based strongly on the seven sins, for instance, could be neat.
Equally, the various celestials are just grab-bags of powers and SLAs, and I'd rather see a series of good outsiders based on the seven virtues, or various other 'good' themed concepts, like mercy, compassion, healing, bringing the rain, etc. The demons and devils do all sorts of crazy stuff, but the good outsiders seem to be better at arse-kicking than providing guidance, helping people, saving villages or, yanno, *doing good.*
On the other hand, the evil outsiders have similar design issues. They have all sorts of wonky combat-stats, but little, if anything, involving corrupting mortals, making contracts, offering deals, etc. If nine out of ten demons and devils can do *bupkiss* for you, why would anyone summon one? If all I wanted was some schmuck killed, I could have summoned an earth elemental and *not* endangered my mortal soul...
The Pathfinder Succubus, with it's profane gift deal, has finally begun to address that sort of thing, but it's a tiny drop in the bucket, since the various tempter devils and even the good aligned outsiders should have blessings than can hand down, in exchange for oaths and services. The game setting, since 1st edition, has kind of assumed that people could call up critters and make deals with them (see, Erac's Cousin), but that's never been supported in the core rules, just in corner-case products like the Book of Vile Darkness that end up being *immediately* repudiated and shunned when the 'rules' end up being 'broken' in one direction or the other.
Anywho, time for the ADD to take hold and for me to change the subject;
The 'outer' planes have received lots of love.
More interesting creatures suited for life in the transitive and inner planes, could be cool. More air, earth, fire, water creatures that *aren't* as lame as the arrowhawk and tojanida (thoqquas rock, but are probably too good at the tunnel building, which is more a problem with the burrow mechanic than the creature type). More astral, ethereal and, especially, shadow creatures. Maybe some first world entities?
Given the inability to reconcile the not-evil / totally wicked evil contradictory notions about negative energy, it's probably easier to just not bother creating new creatures for the positive and negative energy planes.