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Half elves and half orcs have been a staple of D&D for a while now. So have half celestials and half fiends. Now, we have the Dhampier, a race of half vampires. My inquiry is, where is the half dwarf (does the plumbing even work)? The half gnome (does it still get bleached)? The half halfling (just how short can you get)? Is the halfling already halved? If so, from what?
On a more serious note, while I appreciate the flavor of half races, I think, unless backed up with some intricate details in the "how", creating more half races just cause you can is a bit cheesy. If it's really as easy as coupling, then you would expect to see half trog, half mermaids, half <insert your fav monster>.
Thoughts? Opinions?
Dark Sun had sterile half-dwarves called Mul, of course.
And I think there used to be quarterlings.
But Pathfinder isn't Star Trek.
Gnomes of Golarion says that gnomes can't breed with other races. Otherwise you'd see a ton of half-gnomes, considering their love of variety.They the book explain why they couldn't tho? Physical incompatibility? Or an effect of bleaching?
Such things are rarely explained. For example, orcs and elves cannot interbreed. It is not clear why that is, but elves are quite relieved by this, and frequently use it to tease or insult humans. The old "You guys can make babies with orcs. You're so gross!"
My guess would be that they are originally from the First World. They were fey, and not all fey are about seducing humans. They weren't, apparently. Maybe the transition from First World fey to Material Plane humanoids further limited their ability to interbreed with other races.
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My inquiry is, where is the half dwarf (does the plumbing even work)? The half gnome (does it still get bleached)? The half halfling
In the Midnight Campaign Setting.
In that setting, the non-humanoid races had a common ancestry in the Elder Fey (which later diversified into river fey, mountain fey, forest fey, etc...).
Humans couldn't interbreed with any of these races (so no half-human half-elves there!), but there were several more or less common couplings of non-human races.
Elflings were elf-halfling children. The elves in Midnight were short, like standard 3e, and the jungle elves were even shorter than others. They and halflings often interbred. Talk about a nimble race!
Dwarrows were gnome-dwarves. Their exact racial abilities depended on whether they lived with their mountain kin or their river kin (dwarves or gnomes, respectively)
And there were Dworgs. Orc-dwarf half-breeds. They were both strong and tough. And utterly pitiful. They were the only creatures that hated orcs more than dwarves. Orcs and dwarves were absolute enemies (and it is said that the Enemy created orcs from dwarves, something the dwarves would violently deny, but the existance of dworgs lent credibility to this theory), and dworgs were invariably the result of orcs raping dwarves (which shows how utterly depraved orcs really are).
half mermaids
Which half? Depending on upper or lower half, this would either work with humans, elves and the like; or fishes.
No self-respecting dwarf
That's an oxymoron.
would lower himself
Haha! Lower himself. I get it!
And yes, for those who haven't realised it, I'll openly admit it: I think little of dwarves. Normally I'm open and think before I condemn, but dwarves I give short shrift. Some might be stumped by this, but that's the way I am.
No self-respecting dwarfThat's an oxymoron.
would lower himselfHaha! Lower himself. I get it!
And yes, for those who haven't realised it, I'll openly admit it: I think little of dwarves. Normally I'm open and think before I condemn, but dwarves I give short shrift. Some might be stumped by this, but that's the way I am.
A dwarf needs self-respect. Otherwise, he'd get no respect at all!
Ditto with love.
And that's why there are usually no half-dwarves.
I think the reason there are no half-halflings/dwarves/etc. is that the pairings happen so rarely that it's not plausible for them to be playable. Considering that the match up between a dwarf and human in and of itself would be incredibly rare, the chance of such a match up producing children would be even rarer, so much so as to be a cosmic event :P. Half celestials would be more common than half dwarves which is why they're at least mentioned in the bestiary.
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I think the reason there are no half-halflings/dwarves/etc. is that the pairings happen so rarely that it's not plausible for them to be playable. Considering that the match up between a dwarf and human in and of itself would be incredibly rare, the chance of such a match up producing children would be even rarer, so much so as to be a cosmic event :P. Half celestials would be more common than half dwarves which is why they're at least mentioned in the bestiary.
Is there an good explanation on why a dwarf-human pairing is more rare than, let's say an elf-human pairing? Both races are ancient, with their "sacred bloodlines" that must not be tainted. Sure Dwarves can be insular, but elves are often depicted as the same. One can argue that you'll see more dwarves-human interactions since both races like to trade with each other. So how come there are no half-dwarves?
As for half-celestials, now we're crossing into divine territory. Is mating between humans and beings of another plane that common :p More common than pairing of beings that you're likely to see more often? Come on...
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In my own homegrown campaign I had three main races: Humans Elves and Dwarves. Half elves were the result of Elves and humans. Halflings were the result of Humans and Dwarves, and Gnomes the result of Elves and Dwarves.
In the Kingdoms of Legend World guide on Page 7 they have a half gnome and a half dwarf.
According to 2E Forgotten Realms, Dwarves sometimes would go and find a wife of another race (human) to help their depleted and interbred gene pool. The resulting half-dwarfs were just like dwarfs, except 6-8 inches taller. By the time they interbred back with dwarfs, the next generation had no outward indication that they were not a fully blooded dwarf whatsoever. I always thought that was funny, that dwarven genes were all so dominant, but I have an odd sense of humor sometimes.
You can find the information in the complete dwarven handbook for forgotten realms for 2E in a more complete and accurate fashion, as I am going from memory on this one.
Beat me to it!
Yeah, 'Dwarves Deep' mention's half-dwarves and the dwindling gene-pool quite a bit.
Also, in the Ruins of Myth Drannor (or Empire of Elves: Cormanthyr source book) there is mention of a half-dwarf/half-elf gardner responsible for one of the biggest gardens...
Beat me to it!
Sure did! I was wondering if you were gonna post in this thread!
Yeah, I made that one dwarf and his 9 half dwarf sons for that one campaign that ran the local smithy in Turelve. He was a wandering blacksmith class from that Demihumans of the Realms book, but I don't know if it mentioned in that book about half dwarves or not.
It just makes sense that they would look elsewhere. I remember reading somewhere else that the ratio of male dwarves to female was leaning pretty heavy toward the male side. Well, barring enough wars to thin out the male side of the equation.
I might be remembering my lore wrong, but I think Gully dwarves from Dragonlance were supposedly descendants of human/dwarf pairings.
Personally, I'm partial to how Shadowrun deals with racial pairings. An ork and a dwarf have roughly equal chances of having a child that is either a dwarf, or an ork. No dworks. Or orfs. Race is sort of hand-waved as being just another acquired feature, like getting your mother's eyes, or your father's nose. It simplifies having to track the myriad of half-races that would inevitably crop up, because-- to paraphrase Kinsey-- sex is weird.
When it comes down to the biology though, no interspecies pairing should work. Humans should not be able to impregnate elves any more than some creepy farmer should be able to impregnate his livestock. Different species are different species and the biology and chemistry of breeding are, simply put, different. Put that centaur away, that's not evidence to the contrary.
Elves and humans can interbreed in most fantasy settings because Tolkien wrote about half-elves. That's basically it. Elron kinda booped it all up for people that want to impose scientific order on interbreeding. I haven't been able to locate half-elves in Norse folklore; doesn't mean they don't exist, just means I can't find them, so Tolkien is earliest example I can cite. If you can cite an earlier example, by all means do so. It'll still likely be from a source that did not entirely understand genetics.
The best bit of fluff justification I can put forward is that elves, orcs, and humans share some common ancestry that makes them each distant heriditary cousins. This enables them to interbreed. Still doesn't make a lot of biological sense (by that logic, where are all the mad scientists creating half-human chimpanzees, seeing as we have remarkably similar DNA?), but hey, it's a fantasy game. In multiple ways, apparently.
Of course, my theory about ancestry goes right out the door when you consider the Racial Heritage feat humans can pick up. You've got gnome blood in your background?! How? When? Why? What? That contradicts canon! Sacrilege! On top of that, half-dragons? Reptile + mammals? The only justification is screaming "MAGIC!" and running for the fire exit.
Ultimately, it's a fantasy game. 'A wizard did it' or 'Zeus got really drunk' explains away a number of bizarre chimeric beasties in the game that have no place in nature. What does and does not work, in terms of interbreeding, is entirely in the hands of the people telling the story.
Humans/Elves/Orcs are all one species, descendant's of great apes, even if they are not the same race, or they could not interbreed... I always figured this was why Orcs and Elves hate each other.
If their half breeds are infertile than they are simply of the same genus, like horses donkeys and zebra's, otherwise they are a subspecies of each other.
Dwarves/Halflings/Gnomes, ETC are not the same species. I like to think they descendant from other creatures than the great apes, but more likely they are a different order or family of great apes making it so they match the humans/elves/orcs in many ways but can't interbreed.
Edit: had an entire campaign world based off this idea.
Is there an good explanation on why a dwarf-human pairing is more rare than, let's say an elf-human pairing?
I'd say that elves and humans are attracted to each other, while dwarves and humans aren't.
Dwarves are quite racist. They consider everything except their own race to be wrong. They're too stubborn to see the merits of something else. So they wouldn't breed with humans. And humans probably don't want to have children (or just some fun) with a gruff, unattractive, too-short creature that is constantly going on about how it's so great and their axes are the best and gold is so great and gold and gold gold gold gold.
Just doesn't work.
The half-elf concept works a lot better: Humans consider elves to be so beautiful it almost hurts (and a lot of people like to have some carnal fun with really beautiful people), and also refined and graceful. Elves, on the other hand, are fascinated by the human drive and passion. Plus, they're usually very open for new experiences, being a curious and chaotic race. That Calistria is the main goddess for elves certainly plays a role, too.
Both races are ancient, with their "sacred bloodlines" that must not be tainted.
Not all elves are like that. Being chaotic, they're not really prone to prejudice. There are some among them that are like that, but they're the proverbial Vocal Minority.
Sure Dwarves can be insular, but elves are often depicted as the same.
Elves don't want to mingle their culture with the humans', simply because they're so different, especially their lifespans. You can see what happens to elves who grow up among humans. The best a Forlorn can hope for is being just a little twisted. If they're less lucky, they'll be stark raving mad.
Imagine more elves being like that.
That having been said, those elves that don't live in their old nations don't really keep to themselves too much. They might hesitate to build lasting friendships with humans, or even fall in love with them, but elves don't really see the need to fall in love before having fun with someone.
A lot of half-elves are the results of affairs, not of marriages.
One can argue that you'll see more dwarves-human interactions since both races like to trade with each other. So how come there are no half-dwarves?
Those trading relations are usually cool, distant and strictly professional.
As for half-celestials, now we're crossing into divine territory. Is mating between humans and beings of another plane that common :p More common than pairing of beings that you're likely to see more often? Come on...
You can see someone every day without ever feeling the urge to mate with it. But then you see someone else, just once, and you have to keep yourself from jumping them right there and then.
Yes, matings between humans and outsiders isn't that uncommon. For celestials, it might be attraction to the humans they are sent to protect and support, and the humans of course see pretty angels (which happen to have a lot in common with them in regards to outlook and alignment). And I guess sometimes the gods sent out celestials to strengthen a bloodline.
In the case of fiends, a lot of devils and demons are summoned just to be slept with. Sometimes it's for lust, sometimes it's to get powerful off-spring. And sometimes the fiends demand it as payment.
And then, half-celestials and half-fiends don't really have to be the half-mortal offspring of humans and outsiders. Sometimes the divine influence transforms you. Saints and other champions of the gods might be gifted with great strength and wisdom, or might perform rituals to sell their soul for power.
The fact that we're talking about supernatural beings is the very reason this is relatively common: There can be supernatural ways and reasons for these "half-breeds".
Humans/Elves/Orcs are all one species, descendant's of great apes, even if they are not the same race, or they could not interbreed...
Nah. That's not it. Those creatures were created by gods or other powerful entities.
Some can interbreed, some can't. There might be a reason for that, or it's just that way because the gods decided that way.
After all, dragons and outsiders can interbreed with pretty much everything, and they're not the same species at all.
this discussion could have easily been answered if the feat Racial Heritage was open to all races and not just humans
Dwarves don't have the right parts. They breed with their hair and beards... like Na'vi.
How is babby formed? How dwarf get pragnant?
I always thought a Dwarf/Human crossbreed would be so similar to one parent or the other that a specific racial writeup would be unnecessary, although I could see the same argument for Elf/Human crossbreeds, and yet we have Half-elves. *Shrug*
Dwarves don't have the right parts. They breed with their hair and beards... like Na'vi.
It sure does explain why they get so upset when you shave them in their sleep.
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Such things really should be tied to settings rather than rules. We don't need another generation of gamers that'll rage about someone of race X making babies with someone of race Y in some game he's not even in. (yes, I have seen far too many threads derailed on that one element)
Was there some Faerun hoo-ha with Gruumsh or Corellon making it so elves and orcs couldnt interbreed
Yeah, those two had a nasty break-up. ;)
There is no evolutionary theory in my fantasy. There are no species. There are no genetics. Each race was created as it exists by the gods.
The races cannot naturally interbreed; there are no elf/dwarf or dwarf/gnome pairings. The reason all existing humanoid half-breeds are half-human is that the ability to interbreed is a human special feature.
Was there some Faerun hoo-ha with Gruumsh or Corellon making it so elves and orcs couldnt interbreed, or was that a homebrew thing? I can't remember these days... sigh.
That said, Muls are cool.
Nah, that was official. In the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, there are no legendary grudge matches between the main elf god and the main orc god (mainly because racial pantheons are a minor thing and elves and orcs didn't even meet until a mere 10000 years ago), but still, their races can't interbreed. The reason for that was not revealed yet.
Maybe orcs and dwarves can interbreed. Maybe orcs are a dwarf off-shoot from the time both races lived in the Darklands.
Dwarves don't have the right parts. They breed with their hair and beards... like Na'vi.It sure does explain why they get so upset when you shave them in their sleep.
It's more fun to attack them with fire. Burn their beards away. And then shout "what an ugly gnome!" That always cracks me up.
I think the Half-Dragon comes for the ability of some (Most?) Dragons being able to 'Poly-morph'.
That's probably part of it. The rest we really don't want to know.
Also, Dragons aren't Reptiles. They are just armoured with scales and have a physiognomy that is reminiscent of a reptile.
Dragons may look like lizards, but they're not animals. They're dragons. Highly magical creatures that ignore a number of things nature usually insists on, because they're confident and powerful enough to give nature the finger.
And I think there used to be quarterlings.
I think you mean three-quarterlings. To get a quarterling, a halfling would have to mate with a zeroling, which is just ridiculous.
;-)
I'm rather fond of the idea that elves and orcs can breed... and that their offspring are human.
This explains why humans and elves can interbreed for half-elves, and humans and orcs can breed half-orcs... Humans are the genetic meeting of orcs and elves. It's perfectly logical. And hilarious.
The offspring of a zeroling is always a zerloing, regardless of what it mates with. See? I remember how to multiply!
Humans are the genetic meeting of orcs and elves. It's perfectly logical. And hilarious.
Might be hilarious (except that it's not), but it's not anywhere near logical.
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How often does one encounter Half-Orcs and Half-Elves in the published APs and Golarion setting material?
Even though they are listed as playable character "races" I don't really think of them as being at all common among NPCs. In my mind, if you play a half-elf or half-orc there's a good chance you won't meet another one - I see it as more of a unique character trait that's more suited to PCs and remarkable NPC's than the kind of background player you'd see just hanging around.
Humans/Elves/Orcs are all one species, descendant's of great apes, even if they are not the same race, or they could not interbreed... I always figured this was why Orcs and Elves hate each other.
If their half breeds are infertile than they are simply of the same genus, like horses donkeys and zebra's, otherwise they are a subspecies of each other.
Dwarves/Halflings/Gnomes, ETC are not the same species. I like to think they descendant from other creatures than the great apes, but more likely they are a different order or family of great apes making it so they match the humans/elves/orcs in many ways but can't interbreed.
Edit: had an entire campaign world based off this idea.
Something similar is actually part of my homebrew campaign world... orcs, humans, and elves have a common ancestral race. They were gradually warped and mutated into different tribes/subspecies/species by the old gods but they can still interbreed. Humans are most numerous and interact with other races the most, so most half races are half human.
Don't really have an official explanation as to what happens if an orc breeds with an elf, except, "We don't talk about it." ;) (And actually, most orcs are rather geographically separated from elves for the most part). I suppose if someone really wanted to play a half-orc, half-elf, I'd just have them pick either the half-elf or half-orc race and maybe make a minor adjustment to the racial traits to show that the other "half" isn't human (darkvision instead of low-light vision or vice versa).
Gnomes, dwarves, and halflings all have different ancestors, and while they share ancestry with other creatures, interbreeding doesn't happen for a variety of reasons.
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According to 2E Forgotten Realms, Dwarves sometimes would go and find a wife of another race (human) to help their depleted and interbred gene pool. The resulting half-dwarfs were just like dwarfs, except 6-8 inches taller. By the time they interbred back with dwarfs, the next generation had no outward indication that they were not a fully blooded dwarf whatsoever. I always thought that was funny, that dwarven genes were all so dominant, but I have an odd sense of humor sometimes.
You can find the information in the complete dwarven handbook for forgotten realms for 2E in a more complete and accurate fashion, as I am going from memory on this one.
I actually like this explanation quite a lot, even though it's from FR. It cleverly explains how an entire race is able to coexists with many other races, yet never produce (or hides very well) any halfbreed.
Did they give any stats on the half-dwarfs?
I'm rather fond of the idea that elves and orcs can breed... and that their offspring are human.
This explains why humans and elves can interbreed for half-elves, and humans and orcs can breed half-orcs... Humans are the genetic meeting of orcs and elves. It's perfectly logical. And hilarious.
I like that explanation as well.
Sounds like Forgotten Realms was pretty thorough (of course). Anyone know how it was/explanations for Greyhawk?
Greyhawk was alot more sand boxy and while there were dragon magazine articles the ecology of the half orc etc. I dont think Half dwarves were ever addressed.
I seem to remember the 1e Orc entry (when they were kind of pig headed) suggested they could breed with anything except elves.
So from this you got Orog for Example.
But i think this function of orcs has disappeared over time.
Pretty sure Orog dont exist in Golarion (though i supose you could call an Orc with the half ogre template that)
You can always go the route I did in all my old games...
I outlawed the Half-breed templates.
I like the idea that all sapients are genetically incompatible.
But that is just me.
I went the opposite route. My homebrew races are "built" by picking 2 racial feats and 2 racial traits. For a half X/half Y, you'd just choose one feat from the list given for each parent race, and one trait likewise. So there's nothing to stop anyone from, in theory, playing a half-orc/half-gnome.
I went the opposite route. My homebrew races are "built" by picking 2 racial feats and 2 racial traits. For a half X/half Y, you'd just choose one feat from the list given for each parent race, and one trait likewise. So there's nothing to stop anyone from, in theory, playing a half-orc/half-gnome.
What about the stat bonuses?
Do not use the Half-Humans, so no half-elves, or half-orcs.
In fact, kind of turned off by half-breeds as overdone. Just dislike when they say somone is half-human, when interducing another race in fantasy or sci-fi stories.
I went the opposite route. My homebrew races are "built" by picking 2 racial feats and 2 racial traits. For a half X/half Y, you'd just choose one feat from the list given for each parent race, and one trait likewise. So there's nothing to stop anyone from, in theory, playing a half-orc/half-gnome.What about the stat bonuses?
I'd normally let them pick one race as dominant, and use those modifiers. Alternatively, they could spend a racial feat to use the other set of modifiers in addition to the first set.
I'd normally let them pick one race as dominant, and use those modifiers. Alternatively, they could spend a racial feat to use the other set of modifiers in addition to the first set.I went the opposite route. My homebrew races are "built" by picking 2 racial feats and 2 racial traits. For a half X/half Y, you'd just choose one feat from the list given for each parent race, and one trait likewise. So there's nothing to stop anyone from, in theory, playing a half-orc/half-gnome.What about the stat bonuses?
Now you have me interested -- I'm not fond of most of your homebrew, but I don't think I mind what you have here for races...
What counts as a racial feat and what counts as a trait?