I'm setting up an encounter with a green hag who is an 8th level wizard specializing in necromancy. I want her tactics to involve creating zombies to roam the local swamp, and keeping several controlled zombies near her lair as guards. I want her to be able to feed some of these guards each one potion of ghoul touch, since they can stand motionless for weeks "holding" the spell until something comes along that they need to attack.
Looking at the rules for potions (specifically that the drinker is both caster and target), I see that this won't work. Keeping within the rules, how could she give the zombies the ability to use ghoul touch?
Also, would a rod of metamagic (empower) allow her to control 50% more undead with the animate dead spell? Or if not, is there another way to give her more undead under her control within the rules. She already has spell focus and greater spell focus (necromancy) and the command undead feat.
Drinking a potion like ghoul does not give you the ability to paralyze others. It would only paralyse you since you become the target of the spell. Since zombies are immune to the spell the potion would only be wasted.
Empower only affects situations where you have a variable result such as 10d6 for a fireball. Anything that is setup so that you have a specific number can not be empowered.
You might want to look at a dread necromancer(3.5). They can control a lot of undead.
doubleing the HD cost to create a zombie allows for the creation of varient zombies.
ghoul touch seems a likely canidate for a varient ability.
An incredibly specific magic item could be crafted to cast Imbue with Spell-like Ability: Ghoul Touch limited by how many imbues could be active at once.
And do the guards need to be directly controlled? I thought that the mindless undead could be given a simple instruction that they follow. Or, chain them to keep them from wandering off, then let them be their normal zombie selves, attacking anyone within chain length. If the entrance has a bend to shield them from ranged attacks, it makes a cheap door guard.
doubleing the HD cost to create a zombie allows for the creation of varient zombies.
ghoul touch seems a likely canidate for a varient ability.
Right. There's no reason you can't simply add an ability to the zombies. Check out the back of the Bestiary.
Instead of gloves of vampiric touch, gloves of ghoul touch.
If there isn't a feat that lets you control more undead, make one.
One person on here was suggesting leather bracers that would give a feat to the wearer. For a potionlike thing, how about Oil of Ghoul Touch?
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Potion of ghoul touch would bestow the spell of ghoul touch upon the imbiber, not paralyze him. But, even if zombies stand motionless for days, the spell has a duration, and when it runs out, well, it runs out, so unless they recieved very specific instructions like :"When you see someone, drink potion and attack" the potion would be wasted. Also, there is a 50% chance that the zombie will be unable to remember two instructions.
Potion of ghoul touch would bestow the spell of ghoul touch upon the imbiber, not paralyze him. But, even if zombies stand motionless for days, the spell has a duration, and when it runs out, well, it runs out, so unless they recieved very specific instructions like :"When you see someone, drink potion and attack" the potion would be wasted. Also, there is a 50% chance that the zombie will be unable to remember two instructions.
Though if you give them the instruction to drink the potion, that leaves them without orders in front of fresh intruders.
When left unattended,
zombies tend to mill about in search of living creatures
to slaughter and devour.
The zombies now attack.
Thanks to everyone for ideas and explanations of the rules.
Here's what I've come up with so far--
A permanent desecrate spell doubles the number of undead that can be controlled within its area.
Using the create wondrous item feat would allow for making an oil of ghoul touch (or any other touch spell-- just used ghoul touch as an example).
The hag can command zombies to stand still, then apply the oil to them. The description of touch spells in the CRB says that touch spells can be held indefinitely (the duration listed for ghoul touch is how long the paralyzation lasts), so long as the person holding the spell doesn't touch anything else, even accidentally.
So she could have several controlled zombies standing motionless, annointed with various oils. She would need to command the zombies to attack, however, or they would remain motionless even when intruders walked right past them.
Anyone see any problems with this?
Spellstiched zombies? (Source: Libris Mortis I believe)
Imbue Undead with Necromantic Spell Ability zombies?
I have two issues however:
1) 'Programming' the zombies. They have no intelligence whatsoever, thus aren't capable of much in the way of tactics. I think you could program it to drink the potion. Or you could program it to attack the intruder. But you cannot program it to perform both.
2) Even IF you provide ghoul touch to the zombie (in the form of the spell), and even IF it casts the spell, the touch spell is set off anytime the zombie touches something (which you can pretty much tell it to not do) or if something touches the zombie... mosquito swarm, significant rain, snake slithering across, parrot perching, etc etc.
But there are ways of accomplishing what you are trying to achieve, at least on some level.
dosent the drinker have to be living for the potion to activate?
a zombie drinking a potion (assuming his digestive tract is intact) just stores or ruins the potion.
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target.
Ghoul Touch
...
Target living humanoid touched
Chill Touch
...
Targets creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)
Touch spells in potions or oils are generally a no-go. It would make Alchemists a lot cooler, but the problem is that you are both the caster AND the target of the spell when you drink a potion. Since touch spells can't really work that way, they fail (or if you have a mean DM, they affect you). Oils are a bit less of a problem, since the person applying the oil is the caster, but the zombies would still be the ones affected by the touch spell (the "Target" in the target line).
It's a cool idea, and if you want to house-rule it, by all means do so. Maybe the hag has given up a hex/special ability/feat slot for the unique ability to have her zombies store a spell for one week each. But RAW, no dice.
Touch spells in potions or oils are generally a no-go.Like, say, Cure Light Wounds?
Okay, let me redeem myself. Potions that give you a touch attack are generally a no-go, because of the way the spell block is worded and the way potions function, you don't get a touch attack, you cast the spell on yourself and then effectively become the target of the touch attack all at once, discharging the spell immediately.
I knew there was a reason I generally stayed away from the Rules forums, but I couldn't remember what it was...
Touch spells in potions or oils are generally a no-go.Like, say, Cure Light Wounds?Okay, let me redeem myself. Potions that give you a touch attack are generally a no-go.
I knew there was a reason I generally stayed away from the Rules forums, but I couldn't remember what it was...
Careful, spells that are touch attacks cannot be put into a potion, but spells that grant touch attacks can. See elemental touch and calcific touch.
Right. There's no reason you can't simply add an ability to the zombies. Check out the back of the Bestiary.doubleing the HD cost to create a zombie allows for the creation of varient zombies.
ghoul touch seems a likely canidate for a varient ability.
I think this is definitely the best choice. There's already fast zombies and plauge zombies as variants to base a paralyzing zombie off of.
I read the spell description and I cannot see the problem with an Oil of Ghoul Touch. It works just like an Oil of Magic Fang.
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I read the spell description and I cannot see the problem with an Oil of Ghoul Touch. It works just like an Oil of Magic Fang.
The difference is what it does to the target. The target of the Magic Fang receives an ongoing benefit. That's what happens to the target in the "Target" line of the Spell Block. The Oil of Ghoul Touch's target gets paralyzed and makes a stench. That's what happens to the target in the "Target" line of the Spell Block. They don't get the ghoulish touch, they get 'touched'. Legal? Yes, technically I suppose. What the poster wants to happen? No, not at all.
It's an artifact of how the spell is listed, and could seem to be entirely meta-game. However, if you think about it... Snorter's point earlier makes it make sense. You cast Cure Light Wounds, touch someone, and they heal. When you drink a potion/apply an oil of Cure Light Wounds, the imbiber/applicant's target get healed. You cast Ghoul Touch, touch someone, they get paralyzed and stink. Drink a potion/apply an oil of Ghoul Touch...?
Edit: fixed awkward word choice
I can't comment on the potion part but the more undead part, you might consider the Undead Leadership feat from Libris Mortis (if that's an option). It let's you recruit undead the same way the Leadership feat let's you recruit followers.
I'm seeing the "you" in the spell description as the zombie. It also makes sense that greater negitive energy gives Ghouls their touch power.
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I'm seeing the "you" in the spell description as the zombie. It also makes sense that greater negitive energy gives Ghouls their touch power.
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While that would be beneficial for a great many spells, the Potions/Oils section makes it very clear that the (imbiber)/(object the oil is applied to) is very definitely the "Target" of the spell. In this case, that means thing touched, not the "you."
This opens the door for all sorts of cursed oils.
Oil of magic weapon that affects the weapon as if someone was trying to sunder it with a magic weapon.
Oil of Magic Fang that affects the applying hands instead of the animal's natural weapons.
Pathfinder was made without considering this sort of interpretation. That's why it doesn't list the functioning of each potion more or less seperately as needed.
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This opens the door for all sorts of cursed oils.
Oil of magic weapon that affects the weapon as if someone was trying to sunder it with a magic weapon.
Oil of Magic Fang that affects the applying hands instead of the animal's natural weapons.
Pathfinder was made without considering this sort of interpretation. That's why it doesn't list the functioning of each potion more or less seperately as needed.Signature
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That is incorrect. Those spells don't do damage. They are specifically designed to give an object the ability to do greater damage. Note that if you check the SRD that ghoul touch is never made into a potion/oil form.
Remember that the intent of anything in the game is more important than the wording, and it is almost impossible to word something so perfectly that nobody can take advantage of it, or misread it.
This is what you are refering to.
Since The Age of Worms has a potion of false life in it, which was not on the list, Oil of Ghoul Touch should either be abandoned, treated as homebrewed to that one campaign, or even be a Hag racial item.
If anyone tries to replicate the substance, they would get a cursed item. I really think it's like the Shield Potion. Ghoul Touch should be relabeled a personal spell. Only the caster can use it. No potions or oils.
I do not see how Ghoul Touch would paralyze a Zombie.
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This is what you are refering to.
Since The Age of Worms has a potion of false life in it, which was not on the list, Oil of Ghoul Touch should either be abandoned, treated as homebrewed to that one campaign, or even be a Hag racial item.
If anyone tries to replicate the substance, they would get a cursed item. I really think it's like the Shield Potion. Ghoul Touch should be relabeled a personal spell. Only the caster can use it. No potions or oils.
I do not see how Ghoul Touch would paralyze a Zombie.
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Technically it wouldn't, since the "Target" of Ghoul Touch is "Living Creature" and zombie doesn't fit. Spell doesn't have a qualifying target, so it does what any spell without a target does; "fizzles" (whatever that means in your campaign).
This is what you are refering to.
Since The Age of Worms has a potion of false life in it, which was not on the list, Oil of Ghoul Touch should either be abandoned, treated as homebrewed to that one campaign, or even be a Hag racial item.
If anyone tries to replicate the substance, they would get a cursed item. I really think it's like the Shield Potion. Ghoul Touch should be relabeled a personal spell. Only the caster can use it. No potions or oils.
I do not see how Ghoul Touch would paralyze a Zombie.
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The potion of false life has a range of personal so it is illegal. It is either a rules oversight or a homebrew item that was handwaved for story purposes.
Okay, maybe this is where spell research would come in handy.
Supposing she creates a spell that allows her to store a single touch attack spell in another creature. Does anyone have any guess as to what level such a spell would be? Did such a thing exist in 3.5?
Okay, maybe this is where spell research would come in handy.
Supposing she creates a spell that allows her to store a single touch attack spell in another creature. Does anyone have any guess as to what level such a spell would be? Did such a thing exist in 3.5?
I think it is better to just make an exception with a house rule or use the spellstitch template from 3.5. Even saying the NPC research a spell is going to be a houserule anyway, and if the PC's find out a spell can over ride the potion rules they may find a way to do it from the NPC that the GM can't deny without obvious railroading.
Yeah, good point. The players would be all over that. Thanks for the help.
Ravenloft Minion spell.
As soon as the Ghoul Touch spell is used the Minion experiences second death.
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Yeah, good point. The players would be all over that. Thanks for the help.
In one of the campaigns I played in, we did some creative things with some potions of fireball the GM gave us...