Perhaps you're looking at Archetypes for the Summoner already?
The creature summoned is a fragment outsider, not a whole outsider. It is a mutable thing that is imprinted with the summoner's personality, and can be altered with simple spells to perform far more than it's originally designed task. It is a far cry beyond the power of a mere animal companion or familiar, with infinite utility and incredibly powerful destructive capability under it's shifting limbs.
If you want to create a utility Eidolon, that is entirely possible, with fly and burrow speeds, vision enhancements, and increased mental statistics, but the thing is much less valuable than a hulking razor-backed cat with stinging tentacles because it's paired up with what tends to be a frail, frightened guy with glasses and a giant book as his only armor.
Besides, if you want utility, you have those -eternal- summoning spells at your disposal.
I'd like to know, why there aren't any types of Eidolons aside from bruisers? Why aren't there any intelligent ones? Caster ones?
Because they are class companions, not Leadership cheese.
P.s.
A few more Summoner ideas which don't work with the current dumb bruiser Eidolon.
Genie summoner. (I don't mean wishes every day but more in line with the original genies. Maybe with "Create food" or "Minor Creation" and getting stronger versions as it gains levels)
Succubus summoner. Maybe if the Succubus was the Dumb Bimbo(TM).
Lucy (from Fairy Tail).
A Dark Magician etc style Yugioh summoner.
Succubus Summoner: What you're looking for, is Antipaladin.
Genie Summoner: What you're looking for, is Wizard.Lucy from Fairy Tail ... Drud maybe? Witch maybe? Never saw that.
Summoners in Pathfinder are Pokemon Trainers, and your Edilion is Picachu. Wait til you level and give him lightning breath. But Summoner is only one of many classes who do summoning routinely. Shop around.
Eidolons can be built as more than bruisers. That is just what they are best at. They are also too flexible. That is why they need all the exceptions to the rules to keep them from breaking most people's games. The idea was not to give you a monster that you could completely change every day, but to give you one that you could create as you got more powerful to fight as you want it to or assign other skills to it.
Source=APG
1. an eidolon receives a number of skill ranks equal to 6 + its Intelligence modifier per HD.
2. Eidolon Skills
The following skills are class skills for eidolons: Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Stealth (Dex). In addition, at 1st level, the summoner can choose 4 additional skills to be class skills for his eidolon. Note that eidolons with a fly speed receive Fly (Dex) as a free class skill, even if they do not gain a fly speed until a later level.
3. None of them are inherently smart, but you can assign their level up attribute bonus to their int score, and still have them be decent combatants.
One of the other posters built one that was decently skilled during the beta testing. If I can find it I will post a link to it.
4. Skilled (Ex)-->Only 1 evolution point.
An eidolon becomes especially adept at a specific skill, gaining a +8 racial bonus on that skill. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different skill.
Level 5=8 evolution points.
At this point you have 5 skills.
They will not be as skilled as rogue because they were intended for combat, but they can be decent at skills.
An Antipaladin only summons as an aside. Most of the class is focused elsewhere.
As far as I know , there aren't any low level genies a wizard can summon.
Lucy is much more like a pokemon trainer than the Summoner is. She has a number of spirits she can summon to do various things. She herself has little to no powers on her own.
I did shop around , I wanted to have a class that used Summoning as it's main function. I guess a Summoner isn't it, which seems wrong to me. A class called Summoner should be the preeminent caller-of-things-from-beyond imo.
Anyway, what about the other stuff I mentioned? How feats/skills/form never changed even as you level?
What would you do (as GM) if your player got bored with how he designed his Eidolon after a few levels? Or if you found it was actually gimping him? Would you stick to the rules and not allow him to redo the feats/skills/form? How would you handle it?
When you first make your summoner you are linked to an aspect. I give my players 3 session to change the class/race/etc.
The summoner is better at summoning than the other classes, but a dedicated summoning druid or arcanist is good enough that there is not much room between where they are in the ceiling. If they stated they wanted a skilled Eidolon up front then I would change the stats around to suit that, maybe switching wisdom and intelligence.
The Eidolon does get feats, and skills never change for anyone. You can get more skills by increasing intelligence but I don't changing skills out ruins immersion for many people since skills are a learned task, and not something that can just be believably thrown away.
edit:edited for clarity.
Go back and take a second look at Druid, specifically the awaken spell, as well as the animal buffs in the spell list and the spontaneous casting. Druids do a lot more "summoning" than even summoners do.
Go back and take a second look at Druid, specifically the awaken spell, as well as the animal buffs in the spell list and the spontaneous casting. Druids do a lot more "summoning" than even summoners do.
They can summon more, but the summoner does it as a standard action. I don't think either will run out of summons past 6th level if that is where the focus is. Where is the awaken spell?
I think my posting skills are less than adequate. I wasn't talking about the Summoners skills/feats but rather the Eidolons. As according to the rules I read ( I could be wrong) they are immutable once chosen. Which seems odd to me when you can change their evolutions at every level.When you first make your summoner you are linked to an aspect. I give my players 3 session to change the class/race/etc.
The summoner is better at summoning than the other classes, but a dedicated summoning druid or arcanist is good enough that there is not much room between where they are in the ceiling. If they stated they wanted a skilled summoner up front then I would change the stats around to suit that, maybe switching wisdom and intelligence.
The summoner does get feats, and skills never change for anyone. You can get more skills by increasing intelligence but I don't changing skills out ruins immersion for many people since skills are a learned task, and not something that can just be believably thrown away.
I was talking about the Eidolon also. The problem is that I used the word "summoner".
I am going to edit it.
Thanks guys, for all the replies. :)
I'll get my GM to have a look at this thread. Maybe we can come up with some homebrew stuff to let me play the char I want.
Also, anyone have any links to variant Summoners? Or Archetypes?
I don't think there are any out yet. You will probably have to wait for the Ultimate Magic book.
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Also, while some aspects of the Eidolon is set, the Evolutions are mutable. You can change those every single level.
Tell me another class with a pet that has that ability?
In addition do not forget that the summoner also has Summon Monster spells. You want an extra caster? Summon one up. You want a skill monkey? Summon one up.
The Summoner is one of the most devastating classes around. You want more than one of these summoned monsters? Prepare extra Summons spells.
Why do I say it is a devastating class?
in an adventure we had the usual combination of classes, except instead of a wizard we had a summoner. The fighter was quite useless that adventure. The eidolon tanked very well. In the final battle the fighter and eidolon held off a wave of lesser monsters. Behind these lesser monsters the "Boss" waited, cackling. The summoner dropped his eidolon, summoned a celestial something or another in front of the "Boss." The next round the summoner summoned yet another summoned celestial something or other. The Boss was hard pressed and the party had yet to get through the lesser monsters to directly attack the boss.
The Boss drops the first summoned monster. So the summoner calls forth another one. The round the party managed to get free of the lesser monsters the Boss died due to the attacks from the summoned creatures. These summoned creatures were dismissed and the Eidolon recalled.
In this battle, the Summoner stole the show. His versatility was impressive.
Just remember that the Eidolon is not the Summoner's ONLY feature.
Yar!
I thought the Summoner can't use Summon Monster while his Eidolon is out?
The summoner cannot use his Spell-Like Ability to summon when his Eidolon is out, and vicaversa, but the summoner is also a caster and can prepare any Summon Monster spell and use those at the same time.
~P
Edit: and in the above example, the summoner did not have his Eidolon out when he used his other summons. It was dismissed, he summoned other things, then when all was said and done, he brought his Eidolon back.
~P
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Yar!
I thought the Summoner can't use Summon Monster while his Eidolon is out?The summoner cannot use his Spell-Like Ability to summon when his Eidolon is out, and vicaversa, but the summoner is also a caster and can prepare any Summon Monster spell and use those at the same time.
~P
Edit: and in the above example, the summoner did not have his Eidolon out when he used his other summons. It was dismissed, he summoned other things, then when all was said and done, he brought his Eidolon back.
~P
yes exactly.
The summoner CAN use his spells to summon a monster, but the normal Rounds per level duration still applies. Additionally remember he can not use his Spell Like ability to summon more than one creature at a time. BUT he can use his Spell like ability to summon a monster and then his spells to summon more. Or push come to shove, he can keep his Eidolon out and use his spells to summon as many creatures as he has spells for.
A really good player will scour the Bestiaries and find creatures he can summon that also have spell like abilities or spells of their own. Need a healer? Summon one up. Need an arcane blaster? Summon one up.
One reason I don't play a Summoner is the amount of research needed to find the best monsters, create the templated stat blocks, and have everything ready. I'm way too lazy. lol
Summoning creatures from the Bestiary is all well and good when your GM allows it. I know plenty of people who would only allow what was on the lists as written.
My GM will probably allow me to have custom lists luckily. :)
He was saying the person will research the summon monster list for the best monsters. I have considered letting a player add one or two custom monsters to the list. In return I would remove 2 of my choice.
Where is the awaken spell?
Are you really not familiar with the spell? How long have you been on these forums again? You don't play many druids I take it?
Where is the awaken spell?Are you really not familiar with the spell? How long have you been on these forums again? You don't play many druids I take it?
My search fu is terrible. I have looked for that spell more than once.
My search fu is terrible. I have looked for that spell more than once.Where is the awaken spell?Are you really not familiar with the spell? How long have you been on these forums again? You don't play many druids I take it?
Maybe you were sleepin' while lookin' for it?
Greg :P
My search fu is terrible. I have looked for that spell more than once.Where is the awaken spell?Are you really not familiar with the spell? How long have you been on these forums again? You don't play many druids I take it?
I'm not terrible fond of how the Eidolon works, mechanically. I've been pondering a summoner concept who for the most part ignores the Eidolon and focuses on his Summon Monster SAs. Not sure how viable that'd be though.
I'm not terrible fond of how the Eidolon works, mechanically. I've been pondering a summoner concept who for the most part ignores the Eidolon and focuses on his Summon Monster SAs. Not sure how viable that'd be though.My search fu is terrible. I have looked for that spell more than once.Where is the awaken spell?Are you really not familiar with the spell? How long have you been on these forums again? You don't play many druids I take it?
You might check the forums on that. I think MDT has made a version like that.
When I first heard the name, I envisioned something like the summoner from Palladium Fantasy Roleplay. I was kind of disappointed when it turned out to be more like my Summoner in Lineage II with her pretty princess power pony.
But the class has grown on me alot.
Still curious about the new archtypes for it in Ultimate magic.
Greg
My thinking, which I agree might be a bit naive, is that since the Eidolon and the SLA's are mutually exclusive, they must be roughly balanced against each other and you shouldn't be terrible disadvantaged relying on one over the other.
Maybe. :)
I'm not terrible fond of how the Eidolon works, mechanically. I've been pondering a summoner concept who for the most part ignores the Eidolon and focuses on his Summon Monster SAs. Not sure how viable that'd be though.
I planned a Summoner like this, I think the best way to go actually. While the Eidolon and the SLA work off of the same power source, there is a spell for summoning your Eidolon at second level. Use your spell like abilities, then summon the Eidolon for your trump card. Since its only second level, make a wand of it. Then you should be set. Oh, and get Augment Summoning feat at the earliest possible level. Nothing says "I Summon" like a +4 to Str and Con for everything you bring in.
My thinking, which I agree might be a bit naive, is that since the Eidolon and the SLA's are mutually exclusive, they must be roughly balanced against each other and you shouldn't be terrible disadvantaged relying on one over the other.
Maybe. :)
HAH!
Naive indeed. :-)
Go back and take a second look at Druid, specifically the awaken spell, as well as the animal buffs in the spell list and the spontaneous casting. Druids do a lot more "summoning" than even summoners do.They can summon more, but the summoner does it as a standard action. I don't think either will run out of summons past 6th level if that is where the focus is. Where is the awaken spell?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/awaken
Standard operating procedure for Druids when they make 11th level:
Cast scry (cheap mat components for druid)
Find a Cool Animal (dire wolf, dire tiger, giant octo, tyrannosaurus, etc)
Treestride there,
Charm it, (speak w/ animals or wild empathy or charm spell as necessary)
Cast awaken on it.
Instant Princess Mononoke Godmonster Companion, with full Int, can talk, can advance in PC classes, etc. Works just like a leadership cohort but doesn't require leadership, and if you want to make another one you do the same thing and turn the first one loose to terrorize villages or whatever. Awaken is a druid only spell and a class defining feature IMO. And if you ever get into a Pokebattle with a summoner, cast Animal Growth on the Tyranosaurus and yell Go Team Rocket, Bizznitch.
This is in addition to your actual animal companion, and your treant companion from the Liveoak spell, and your 3 other treant companions that the first treant companion made, and your InstaTreant from Changestaff. Then there's actual summoning. And then, you know, you could take leadership too. And shambling mounds at higher levels, etc.
Druids were summoners before summoners were cool.
Honestly, I thought this was a joke when I first saw the topic. Summoner is one of the MOST flexible, creative, and versatile classes in the game! You can make your eidolon into ANYTHING you want, especially if you have a GM who's willing to accept homebrew evolutions. You've essentially got two characters to play with!
Yar!
I thought the Summoner can't use Summon Monster while his Eidolon is out?The summoner cannot use his Spell-Like Ability to summon when his Eidolon is out, and vicaversa, but the summoner is also a caster and can prepare any Summon Monster spell and use those at the same time.
~P
Edit: and in the above example, the summoner did not have his Eidolon out when he used his other summons. It was dismissed, he summoned other things, then when all was said and done, he brought his Eidolon back.
~P
As a minor note, he can summon his eidolon while the SLA critter is still live.
As a minor note, he can summon his eidolon while the SLA critter is still live.
Pretty sure that is not correct unless you mean to use the spell that specifically summons the eidolon.
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Pretty sure that is not correct unless you mean to use the spell that specifically summons the eidolon.
As a minor note, he can summon his eidolon while the SLA critter is still live.
Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned. He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used as gate, the summoner must pay any required material components. A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends. These summon spells are considered to be part of his spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. In addition, he can expend uses of this ability to fufill the construction requirements of any magic item he creates, so long as he can use this ability to cast the required spell.
The part in italics is fluff, the part in bold is mechanics. Since they last 1 minutes per level, the summoner can just whip one out right before the ritual. So if the party has prep time, the summoner can dismiss eidolon, use SLA, ritual in eidolon, and then cast buffs. RAI, most likely not. RAW, absolutely. Then again strict RAW leads to summoners and oracles not suffering the slow casting time for metamagic (since the rule spells out the classes which are affected rather than just saying spontaneous casters).
Pretty sure that is not correct unless you mean to use the spell that specifically summons the eidolon.
As a minor note, he can summon his eidolon while the SLA critter is still live.spell description:Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned. He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used as gate, the summoner must pay any required material components. A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends. These summon spells are considered to be part of his spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. In addition, he can expend uses of this ability to fufill the construction requirements of any magic item he creates, so long as he can use this ability to cast the required spell.The part in italics is fluff, the part in bold is mechanics. Since they last 1 minutes per level, the summoner can just whip one out right before the ritual. So if the party has prep time, the summoner can dismiss eidolon, use SLA, ritual in eidolon, and then cast buffs. RAI, most likely not. RAW, absolutely. Then again strict RAW leads to summoners and oracles not suffering the slow casting time for metamagic (since the rule spells out the classes which are affected rather...I think you're technically correct however i see a lot of Dm's nixing this idea.
I'm going to disagree on "that sentence is fluff" and therefore you can have SLA Summons out with Eidolon.
You do not get to designate a sentence as fluff anytime you do not like what it says.
The sentence, taken in context with the one before and after, makes it mechanics.
1) Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.
2)Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon.
3)As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned.
See-> As a result. "As a result" means, "because of that". Because of what? as a result of whaT?
As a result of the fact that they use the same power source, you can't have one out if the other is in use.
You can't take out your "this is fluff' pencil and erase mechanics.
You can have your Eidolon out or you can use your SLA's. If you want both out- you have to cast the spell, with its attending limitations.
-S
I'm going to disagree on "that sentence is fluff" and therefore you can have SLA Summons out with Eidolon.
You do not get to designate a sentence as fluff anytime you do not like what it says.
The sentence, taken in context with the one before and after, makes it mechanics.
1) Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.
2)Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon.
3)As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned.See-> As a result. "As a result" means, "because of that". Because of what? as a result of whaT?
As a result of the fact that they use the same power source, you can't have one out if the other is in use.You can't take out your "this is fluff' pencil and erase mechanics.
You can have your Eidolon out or you can use your SLA's. If you want both out- you have to cast the spell, with its attending limitations.
-S
Yes, "Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon". However, what does that mean? By RAW, it only says that you can't use the SLA while Eidolon is out.
It means exactly what it says it means. That you can't use the two abilities in conjunction with one another.
You have to choose whether to have your Big E out or your SLA's. You can't do both. Not without expending a different resource: like one of your spell slots.
Don't get me wrong- I understand where you are coming from. One of the most annoying things they did from beta to release was take the two defining class features and make them mutually exclusive. That is exactly what they did though.
-S
It means exactly what it says it means. That you can't use the two abilities in conjunction with one another.
You have to choose whether to have your Big E out or your SLA's. You can't do both. Not without expending a different resource: like one of your spell slots.
-S
That's a RAI reading not RAW. Also strictly speaking, you can't use the SLA even if you used the spell to get Fido out.
I also don't approve of people calling the RAW "fluff" just because they don't like what it says. I see that behavior all too often on these boards.
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Honestly, I thought this was a joke when I first saw the topic. Summoner is one of the MOST flexible, creative, and versatile classes in the game! You can make your eidolon into ANYTHING you want, especially if you have a GM who's willing to accept homebrew evolutions. You've essentially got two characters to play with!
+1
So says my Eidolon with skill focus in diplomacy and profession: bartender and is a formidble tank as well.
I also don't approve of people calling the RAW "fluff" just because they don't like what it says. I see that behavior all too often on these boards.
It isn't because I don't like what it says, it is because it doesn't actually say anything. It is akin to the following:
When anyone reads the text containing the symbol, the sepia snake sigil springs into being, transforming into a large sepia serpent that strikes at the reader, provided there is line of effect between the symbol and the reader.
The bolded portion actually doesn't do anything. If we were to take that portion literally, there should be some kind of attack roll rather than a save. Similar thing with the SLA text.
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I'm not terrible fond of how the Eidolon works, mechanically. I've been pondering a summoner concept who for the most part ignores the Eidolon and focuses on his Summon Monster SAs. Not sure how viable that'd be though.My search fu is terrible. I have looked for that spell more than once.Where is the awaken spell?Are you really not familiar with the spell? How long have you been on these forums again? You don't play many druids I take it?
I have thought of that as an archetype for the Summoner. I think it would be VERY viable, and much more attractive to me for a summoner. Just my 2cp.
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please, let's not let this interesting topic devolve into a fluff vs mechanics argument. I can see both sides of the argument and I know how I would rule at my table.
The fact that this is a pen and paper RPG and not a computer RPG means that everything is open to interpretation and that some things will be run differently. Heck, once the rule is printed and in text, I consider anything even the rules designers have to say to be opinion and not "law."
I also don't approve of people calling the RAW "fluff" just because they don't like what it says. I see that behavior all too often on these boards.
Many times it is fluff. This time I do happen to agree with you though. Both can not be out at the same time. I am at a library, and about to go to work so I don't have to time to activate my search-fu to provide the developer comment that supports it.
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Those things can't really be changed on a normal character, so I don't really expect them to be changed on an eidolon, although it would be cool.
I do think the eidolon is limited because Paizo couldn't get a good balance within their time limit. I certainly hope Paizo makes more options for Summoners in Ultimate Magic. I'm not pleased at all with all the things they removed, along with all the exceptions in rules, and lack of eidolon base forms.
I personally rather they left the class out until it was better designed, but they need to sell books.
It means exactly what it says it means. That you can't use the two abilities in conjunction with one another.
-S
It says "Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon", not more, not less. Note that many class abilities draw upon the same source of power - clerics, for one. And a cleric can have several spells up and running at the same time. So even if you take this as mechanics rather than fluff, the sentence doesn't state any rules. If there was a complimentary rule that said "Abilities using the same power can't be active at once", you'd be right, but right now, even if this is thought of as mechanics, it's mechanics that doesn't do anything.