Because adding one more level would have caused the box to burst at the seams. Seriously!
Bigger box! Yeah, adding that extra level does require the addition of some 3rd level spells, perhaps? Though you'll have a number of them already because of the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, etc. getting them at 5th level. What else does it add bloat-wise? Just seems like a missed opportunity to support E6 play with this single set. Though E6 probably isn't that well-known and I'm buying this anyhow so it probably doesn't make a huuuuge difference.
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I will tell you that when you pick up this box, the heft of it will make you feel that you're getting your money's worth, and that's before you even open it.By the way, if you'd like to see how *deep* this box is, check out the table in the *next* photo Black Diamond Games posted.
Do all of those people come in the box?
Hmmmm, could do Pathfinder E5. What would be missed vs. E6? Biggie would be Sorcerer's 3rd-level spells. Could add a feat allowing them, perhaps. Anyway, sorry for the derail, back on topic!
Sweet box, sweet art, can't wait for the fall. Why must you make me wish my life away Paizo?!?!
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She starts off collecting game material and promptly moves on to collecting gamers. Devious!
Good idea, Paizo could sell starter sets.
1 GM3 Players
then sell random booster kits. Which come with 4 random gamers in them. They would all have special abilities like. Power gamer, Role Player, rules lawyer etc the rares could be GM's and girl gamers, with the ultra rare being girl GM. :)
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NICE.
Hope this is on the blog tonight, just so I can finally see it after all the excited posts about it here.
From the way it's been described, it sounds like all the core races and classes are making it in, right? The former was way more important to me than the latter, but the latter is still really nice to have.
Thinking about getting one of these for the local library...
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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We won't be formally announcing this project for a while yet, so things like a final class and race list will have to wait. Right now it's best to consider these photos as further evidence that Paizo is going to release this game later this year, but until we've formally solicited it to the trade and posted a project page, some of the details are going to take a while to get out.
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Creative Director
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NICE.
Hope this is on the blog tonight, just so I can finally see it after all the excited posts about it here.
From the way it's been described, it sounds like all the core races and classes are making it in, right? The former was way more important to me than the latter, but the latter is still really nice to have.
Thinking about getting one of these for the local library...
We have not yet spilled the beans, as far as I know, as to what rules elements actually are incorporated into this product.
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We have not yet spilled the beans, as far as I know, as to what rules elements actually are incorporated into this product.NICE.
Hope this is on the blog tonight, just so I can finally see it after all the excited posts about it here.
From the way it's been described, it sounds like all the core races and classes are making it in, right? The former was way more important to me than the latter, but the latter is still really nice to have.
Thinking about getting one of these for the local library...
Yeah, I just saw the parts about "five levels" and "probably will work with PFS" and jumped to conclusions. :)
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Bigger box! Yeah, adding that extra level does require the addition of some 3rd level spells, perhaps? Though you'll have a number of them already because of the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, etc. getting them at 5th level. What else does it add bloat-wise? Just seems like a missed opportunity to support E6 play with this single set. Though E6 probably isn't that well-known and I'm buying this anyhow so it probably doesn't make a huuuuge difference.
You wouldn’t need to add spell descriptions as the wizard list is the same as the sorcerer list, and I don’t think any other class gets access to a new spell level between 5th and 6th. You would need to add the following:
An additional line in character advancement table for all classes (including prestige classes and NPC classes if they are in the book).
Bard – Paragraph explaining suggestion power, additional line of text in versatile performance description.
Cleric – 1 additional paragraph for Air Domain. 1 additional paragraph for Earth Domain. 1 additional paragraph for Fire Domain. 1 additional paragraph for Healing Domain. 1 additional paragraph for Knowledge Domain. 1 additional paragraph for Luck Domain. 1 additional paragrph for Plant Domain. 1 additional paragrph for Water Domain. Also, additional domain spell listed for each domain.
Druid – 2 additional lines of text in Wildshape description. Additional line in Animal Companion table and additional paragraph for Devotion description.
Monk – 1 additional line of text for monks’ bonus feats.
Paladin – 4 additional lines of text describing mercies.
Ranger – 3 additional lines of text describing combat style feats.
Rogue – 1 additional line of text under trap sense description.
Wizard – Additional paragraph for Abjuration school.
In addition to the above changes for classes, some Domains for clerics and Schools for wizards might seem unbalanced, since some Domain / School powers kick in at 6th level and some kick in at 8th level.
Additional feat descriptions: Greater Disarm, Greater Feint, Greater Trip, Disruptive, Wind Stance, Greater Grapple, Gorgons Fist, Lunge, Manyshot, Greater Bullrush, Greater Overrun, Greater Sunder, Shield Slam, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Vital Strike, Shatter Defences, Maximise Spell, Quicken Spell, Widen Spell (and probably others that I have missed).
If Prestige Classes are in the basic set (I’m guessing they’re not), Arcane Archer, Duelist, and Mystic Theurge now become usable.
Description in combat chapter of multiple attacks due to high BAB would need to be added.
You’d probably add some additional magical items.
You’d probably add some additional monsters.
I’m sure there are other things you’d need to include that I’m not thinking of. Whether all this adds up to ‘6th level = unfeasible’ I have no idea, but there is quite a bit of additional information that would need to be included.
Anyway to buy this but have the box say "Halo vs. Call of Duty" so I can trick my nephew into playing? He used to love it when I broke out HeroQuest or Darktower but then that accursed Xbox360 came out and totally Vadered him to the darkside, leaving him a hollow shell of a boy.
...amazing list of additions needed to go from supporting through 5th to supporting through 6th, compiled in an astoundingly short time...
Ah, yeah, quite a bit of things kick in at 6th. Perhaps E5 is something reasonable to aim for in PFRPG. The main thing I'd want to ensure is that Sorcerers get access to 3rd-level spells (otherwise they'd be at a significant disadvantage to Wizards). Could be done via a feat bought after 5th level, perhaps. Perhaps a generic feat for all casters that'd give them their 6th level spell casting capability.
Amazing list of changes, though -- thanks for compiling them!
Anyway to buy this but have the box say "Halo vs. Call of Duty" so I can trick my nephew into playing? He used to love it when I broke out HeroQuest or Darktower but then that accursed Xbox360 came out and totally Vadered him to the darkside, leaving him a hollow shell of a boy.Cardboard, a color printer, some creativity?
Good luck.
Maybe I'll tell him there's a cheeseburger inside...
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Ah, yeah, quite a bit of things kick in at 6th. Perhaps E5 is something reasonable to aim for in PFRPG. The main thing I'd want to ensure is that Sorcerers get access to 3rd-level spells (otherwise they'd be at a significant disadvantage to Wizards). Could be done via a feat bought after 5th level, perhaps. Perhaps a generic feat for all casters that'd give them their 6th level spell casting capability.
Amazing list of changes, though -- thanks for compiling them!
No worries. I’ve probably missed quite a few, and since we don’t know if every core class will be represented (or if, for example all of things like cleric domains, rogue talents, sorcerer bloodlines etc will be included) some of it might be redundant.
I share your concern regarding sorcerers in a very minor fashion (to be honest I have always chosen to play a wizard over a sorcerer in 3.5 and Pathfinder to date), I would be wary of such a feat; it might make sense in the level 1-6 game but not so much in the 1-20 game. Also, it would probably tend to become one of those ‘no-brainer’ feats that everyone playing that class will take.
I wonder whether sorcerers not being able to cast 3rd level spells is such an issue anyway? Not including bonus spells and cantrips you are looking at 6 spells per day (only one of them third level) versus 10 spells per day and bloodline powers that are potentially cooler than wizard school powers. Seems fairly balanced to me, though I respect that your opinion may differ.
EDIT: Although when you look at being able to potentially cast 3 x 3rd level spells per day due to high ability score and school specialisation it does start to look less balanced.
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Maybe I'll tell him there's a cheeseburger inside...Anyway to buy this but have the box say "Halo vs. Call of Duty" so I can trick my nephew into playing? He used to love it when I broke out HeroQuest or Darktower but then that accursed Xbox360 came out and totally Vadered him to the darkside, leaving him a hollow shell of a boy.Cardboard, a color printer, some creativity?
Good luck.
Then the cats will eat it.
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Then the cats will eat it.Maybe I'll tell him there's a cheeseburger inside...Anyway to buy this but have the box say "Halo vs. Call of Duty" so I can trick my nephew into playing? He used to love it when I broke out HeroQuest or Darktower but then that accursed Xbox360 came out and totally Vadered him to the darkside, leaving him a hollow shell of a boy.Cardboard, a color printer, some creativity?
Good luck.
Hey, a new gamer is a new gamer. And if Whiskers can manage to stay in character he can play at my table.
Then the cats will eat it.Maybe I'll tell him there's a cheeseburger inside...Anyway to buy this but have the box say "Halo vs. Call of Duty" so I can trick my nephew into playing? He used to love it when I broke out HeroQuest or Darktower but then that accursed Xbox360 came out and totally Vadered him to the darkside, leaving him a hollow shell of a boy.Cardboard, a color printer, some creativity?
Good luck.
Hopefully they'll make weird/cute faces while they eat it :) But seriously, I like the idea of Pathfinder Basic but I fear it is too late to save my nephew from perpetual videogame laziness. Maybe I'll buy a copy and squirrel it away for the future.
Mothman: This is what you do with the time freed up by not having FB?
Pfft.
This looks FANTASTIC! I love the WAR artwork (nice to see Ezren and Mersiel (sp?)) on the cover (for me anyway it seems like a nice homage to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook cover). But, that might just be me.
I like that it might be on the RPG subscription... but if not, subscribers that preorder might get a little somethin' extra. Cool.
And I agree with "leaf-boy" let's have a promotional poster of this AWESOME artwork. Please, please, please.
~Dean
Sebastian: Up thread Vic said that it's still undecided.
I quote:
When this comes out, will it be included in the Pathfinder RPG subscription?To be determined. If it ends up *not* being part of the sub, we'll make sure that RPG subscribers who preorder it do receive some special perk.
A promotional poster is a near certainty.
Sweet.
C'mon, seriously .... What's in the box? What's in the box??!?!
I remember Paizo thinking about a "rule-light" product last year. Is this it? Is there another product coming? Or, after thinking about it, was this the product developed instead?
They were thinking about an intro game, and this is it. Many people speculated on how rules-light it would be, but that's never something they claimed.
I'm looking forward to it. I'm going to use it to run E6, even if it needs a small additional PDF to add expansion feats. Actually, E5 is sounding more and more reasonable.
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We at Paizo have always viewed 5th level as the end of low-level. It's got capstones (fireball!), but it doesn't edge into the rather complex arena of iterative attacks. 5th level, for those reasons and more, is a good break off point.
This makes me very very happy. I was worried it was going to be capped at third level which IMO would have been a waste.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I'd be expecting it to not represent all the PF RPG Core Rulebook classes, myself. The game's a lot easier to teach if you restrict it to simpler classes like cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard. Wouldn't be surprised to see a few more (ranger comes to mind) in the mix, but I'd expect more challenging classes like druids and paladins to sit this set out. After all, druids are changing form by level 5, and that's a big chunk of rules support right there.
I'd be expecting it to not represent all the PF RPG Core Rulebook classes, myself. The game's a lot easier to teach if you restrict it to simpler classes like cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard. Wouldn't be surprised to see a few more (ranger comes to mind) in the mix, but I'd expect more challenging classes like druids and paladins to sit this set out. After all, druids are changing form by level 5, and that's a big chunk of rules support right there.
And it may be telling that we see the Wizard and Rogue iconic -- two of the basic four -- on the art. It also implies we'll be seeing at least Humans (well, yeah...) and Elf. Though it may not be totally representative -- that dragon looks a bit beyond the capability of the characters coming from that box (short of playing E5, of course!).
Sebastian: Up thread Vic said that it's still undecided.
I quote:
When this comes out, will it be included in the Pathfinder RPG subscription?To be determined. If it ends up *not* being part of the sub, we'll make sure that RPG subscribers who preorder it do receive some special perk.
Well, I'm hoping it is in the subscription!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sebastian: Up thread Vic said that it's still undecided.
I quote:
When this comes out, will it be included in the Pathfinder RPG subscription?To be determined. If it ends up *not* being part of the sub, we'll make sure that RPG subscribers who preorder it do receive some special perk.
Ah, thanks Mairkurion. I skimmed the thread and missed that.
Hey Vic, if you guys don't put it in the core rules subscription, would you consider offering another "misc." subscription? I'd really like to get things like this, the various players guides for the APs (do you still print those, or are they pdf only?), and free rpg day stuff like Here There be Goblins automatically. I really like your products, and if you offer me a subscription, even for stuff I could get free in pdf format, I will take you up on it.
Hey Vic, if you guys don't put it in the core rules subscription, would you consider offering another "misc." subscription? I'd really like to get things like this, the various players guides for the APs (do you still print those, or are they pdf only?), and free rpg day stuff like Here There be Goblins automatically. I really like your products, and if you offer me a subscription, even for stuff I could get free in pdf format, I will take you up on it.
Yes, please! GIGANTIC +1 to this.
Hey Vic, if you guys don't put it in the core rules subscription, would you consider offering another "misc." subscription? I'd really like to get things like this, the various players guides for the APs (do you still print those, or are they pdf only?), and free rpg day stuff like Here There be Goblins automatically. I really like your products, and if you offer me a subscription, even for stuff I could get free in pdf format, I will take you up on it.Yes, please! GIGANTIC +1 to this.
Make that +2.
Who knew I could buy my own designer for 35 bucks. So if I order two of them, who comes in the other box?Just two of me... you'd be surprised how far cloning has come along these days. Its really the only way I can meet my deadlines.
Jason
(In all seriousness, I am super stoked to tell everybody more about this box.. but I gotta wait till Paizocon)
If I got your clone, would I have a free editor for my adventure?
Love it!
I can't wait to see what's inside. I would certainly expect a pared down class list (no sorcerer, for example), but I hope all the races are in there. If not, I'd like to see it mirror the old red box with what's included race and class wise.
Although, of course, the races wouldn't be classes.
"What do you do, Legolas?"
"I'm an elf; I elf."
I don't think you want me editing your adventure. Design, sure, edit, no. I leave that to the professionals. Trust me on that one. Jason
Unless we clone you, then teach the clone editing instead of game design OR we cross clone you with another staff member. Then include you and the clone/cross clone in the box.
Problem solved.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I don't think you want me editing your adventure. Design, sure, edit, no. I leave that to the professionals. Trust me on that one. JasonUnless we clone you, then teach the clone editing instead of game design OR we cross clone you with another staff member. Then include you and the clone/cross clone in the box.
Problem solved.
Cross cloning? Is that what the kids are calling it these days? I would've thought the Beast with Two Backs would be a little more RPG-ish, but what do I know...
Cross cloning? Is that what the kids are calling it these days? I would've thought the Beast with Two Backs would be a little more RPG-ish, but what do I know...
Well, since we'd already gone down the cloning road, I thought we stick with it. Sides, it may not work to try and breed them into a single designer/editor beast to put in the box.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Hey Vic, if you guys don't put it in the core rules subscription, would you consider offering another "misc." subscription? I'd really like to get things like this, the various players guides for the APs (do you still print those, or are they pdf only?), and free rpg day stuff like Here There be Goblins automatically. I really like your products, and if you offer me a subscription, even for stuff I could get free in pdf format, I will take you up on it.
AP Player's Guides have been PDF-only for a while now.
As you might know, it makes a lot of sense for us to limit our product mix to stuff that's in subscription lines as much as possible, so that we have guaranteed sales out of the gate. As a result, there are really only three types of physical product we regularly do that don't fit into existing subs:
- We do posters once or twice per year, but because we sell them rolled, they have to ship in their own tube, so you don't get any savings if you combine them with a subscription shipment.
- We do Free RPG Day stuff, and we don't even take *preorders* on those because we want to encourage people to actually participate in Free RPG Day at their FLGS (if they have one). Offering them in subscriptions runs counter to that.
- We do convention exclusives, like the Gen Con pin set and the PaizoCon pint glass, and while I do get that our most enthusiastic customers might want to have those automatically shipped to them, we'd also hope that we'd be seeing a lot of those same customers at those conventions!
Getting back to this specific product, I think whether or not it's part of the RPG sub will depend a lot on whether subscribers of that line *want* it to be. After we announce more details on it in the coming months, we'll start asking you for feedback on that.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Okay, that makes sense, even if part of your motive is to force me to leave my mother's basement to participate in a social event at my local FLGS. I was starting to feel like there was an ever-increasing number of products that fell outside the subscriptions, but it is much smaller than I expected, and the only one I'd really want is the free rpg products.
Hopefully, the other subscribers will want the basic set in the subscription as much as I do.
Okay, that makes sense, even if part of your motive is to force me to leave my mother's basement...
I don't like to leave your mother's basement either! *rimshot*
Seriously though, I can see them going either way. It seems rather situational, which I would think means leaving it out to be on the safe side.
P.S. I think I just bought me an butt-whuppin. :)
Edit: Wait...I can say ass-whuppin, but I can't say butt-whuppin?
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It's in a box, yes.
Any chance you will release Pathfinder Basic (or whatever it will be called) eventually as books, too? As I've said on other threads, as a customer I'm happy that it's a boxed set, but as a librarian I'm a bit sad; boxed sets are a big no-no (because of all the fiddly bits, such as dice and tokens) for most public libraries these days, but I'd really, *really* want us to be able to acquire it.