Another thread I didn't want to make. :P
I understand the ability as written and think it works rather well. Up to a point, but it seems some of the people I game with have issues with it.
Mainly one thinks it's a hassle, and prefers the default cone with either a single attack roll VS every creature in the cone, then a single damage roll, (Which personally would tick me off dealing 1 damage to everyone in a cone with a shotgun. -_-) or a cone effect with a reflex save for half.
For me there's also the issue of DMs using creatures with all the same AC, where I feel this wouldn't work very well either. (I also have issues with anything that has Evasion dodging gunfire if there was a 'reflex save for half' ...also the normally static reflex DC.)
The other person is ...hung up on the language.
Scatter Special Quality: A weapon with the scatter special quality can shoot two different types of ammunition. It can fire normal bullets that target one creature, or it can make a scattering shot, attacking all creatures within a cone. When it attacks all creatures within a cone, it makes one attack per creature within in the cone, and each attack takes a –2 penalty. If any of the attacks threaten a critical, confirm the critical for that creature alone. If a scatter weapon explodes on a misfire, it deals triple its damage to all creatures within the misfire radius.
Such as where it says 'When it attacks all creatures within a cone, it makes one attack per creature within in the cone,...' (Both have issue with this, just one more then the other.)
To them it feels like you're shooting more then once at each creature. I feel they're getting stuck on the 'When it attacks' as they stated that as 'making the initial attack roll'.
They both agree the language needs to be cleared up some, as they feel it's ambiguous at best.
I understand it just fine though: You're taking a single (iterative) attack action that triggers a cone effect which causes you to roll 'To Hit' each creature in the cone and deal damage accordingly.
That's awesome. Really, I mean it solves so many issues with the basic 'reflex for half cone attack' that most shotguns are done as.
But. It creates a whole new one, for me anyways.
With the Blunderbuss it actually works out rather well, at Best youre hitting six to seven medium sized creatures. Which is totally believable, even as far as saying the shot went through the first creature and hit the one behind it.
(No comment on if you miss the first creature and still hit the second. ;) Rather funny that, I think. ^-^)
Blunderbuss: This weapon fires pellets or a bullet from its trumpet-shaped barrel, making it an effective fowling weapon or close-fighting personal defense weapon. The blunderbuss fires in a 15-foot cone when firing pellets, and has a 10-foot range increment when firing a bullet.
Where I have an issue is the shotgun.
Shotgun: This advanced version of the blunderbuss shoots in a 30-foot cone when firing pellets, and has a 20-foot range increment when firing a bullet.
A '30-foot' cone?
That's 26 to 28 medium sized creatures. Granted a shotgun is a powerful Close range weapon, but I think that is pushing believability. Specially when you think about it like, 'you shoot through the first 10 guys in a line, missing them but hit 1 or 2 clear in the back'. What was funny just became rather ...weird, at best. (Yes. That is all dependent on if you ever get that many people in a cone (Unlikely but who knows.) And on how you roll the dice and assign targets. Things like 'first hit is first in line, while misses are in the back' work. I know. I just wanted to point out the potential silliness here.) Also, what if you roll and hit all 28? O_O
So I purpose a fix. Limit the number of creatures able to take damage from the effect to something like 10. (10 is pushing it for me so it seems like a nice maximum number.) Given a 30-foot cone is 6 squares long, it wont clear up some of the silliness like: 'Well the guys in front have high AC, but you did manage to hit the Wizard in the back past all 5 of his buddies.'
but I think it would work for most situations.
(I also feel the damage should be increased. I mean. 1d8? Really? and only a x2 critical multiplier? But. That's not the purpose of this thread so I wont get into that. Or talk about "Shotguns shouldn't be cones." (I disagree. They should be. :P))
Another thing my group pondered, sneak attacks with a 30-foot cone?
28 sneak attacks?
So since the playtest has been going for awhile and is coming to an end.
I was curious if anyone else had any such issue with this weapon ability?
Or comments on changes that might be made to it?
The two people I talked about above have pretty much 'banned' it from their games as it's "too confusing".
(that's more or less why, the one doesn't want guns in their current game anyways, but still pretty much said they wouldn't use/allowed it in others.)
Also:
Another thing my group pondered, sneak attacks with a 30-foot cone?
28 sneak attacks?
Yeah, a Little much there.
BUT, be pretty cool if all the attacks hit. ;)I still think there should be a 'maximum creatures effected' limit though.
Somewhere around seven to ten would be good.
A '30-foot' cone?
That's 26 to 28 medium sized creatures. Granted a shotgun is a powerful Close range weapon, but I think that is pushing believability. Specially when you think about it like, 'you shoot through the first 10 guys in a line, missing them but hit 1 or 2 clear in the back'. What was funny just became rather ...weird, at best. (Yes. That is all dependent on if you ever get that many people in a cone (Unlikely but who knows.) And on how you roll the dice and assign targets. Things like 'first hit is first in line, while misses are in the back' work. I know. I just wanted to point out the potential silliness here.) Also, what if you roll and hit all 28? O_O
Tell your friends they have no imagination. The guys in back got hit because the guys in front dived out of the way.
If you hit all 28 then everyone got a pellet. Some might be missing body parts while others have what amounts to bug bites.
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A '30-foot' cone?
That's 26 to 28 medium sized creatures. Granted a shotgun is a powerful Close range weapon, but I think that is pushing believability. Specially when you think about it like, 'you shoot through the first 10 guys in a line, missing them but hit 1 or 2 clear in the back'. What was funny just became rather ...weird, at best. (Yes. That is all dependent on if you ever get that many people in a cone (Unlikely but who knows.) And on how you roll the dice and assign targets. Things like 'first hit is first in line, while misses are in the back' work. I know. I just wanted to point out the potential silliness here.) Also, what if you roll and hit all 28? O_O
Ricochet. Just sayin.
Also do you friends not like whirlwind attack?
The game has cover. Soft cover provides a +4 AC bonus. I'm pretty those in back have a nice boost to AC, for what it's worth.
Personally, I like the idea of just making a standard area effect attack. Automatic damage (no crit, because no attack roll, and thus no Sneak Attack), that has a Reflex save for half damage (so no damage with evasion!), DC being 10 + half attacker's BAB + Dex mod (full BAB turns out similar to a spell being cast).
Brings the weapon in line with normal area attacks. Less exciting though: shotgun not rolling a ton of dice feels wrong.
Instead, I would put the damage at d4s. 5d4 damage has a nice "feel" for rolling dice.
The aspect I haven't figured out is how to apply misfires to the area effect. Just roll a d20 anyways and see if you fail? Or crit too! Hmmm...
*Edit*
Nah on the crits.. what do you confirm against?
The other idea is the non-flared, long barrel shotgun could potentially work good as a line instead of a cone (say, a 60ft line instead of a 30ft cone, etc). Nice idea to have a different option.
And then, of course, the slug to give the single target option.
Fireball is the most OP thing in the world- only seconded by Lightning bolt.
Lightning bolt at minimum caster level (5th) is 5d6 to a 120 foot line.
Every 5 feet is a person right? so you are looking at like. 24 people.
thats like.. 720 damage.
Fireball is fun too, 20ft radius spread is.. more than My mind can figure out this early in the morning.
Sarcasm? yes. Everyone knows lightning bolt and FB don't work that way for one simple reason.
Critters don't line up in fireball or lightning bolt formation very often.
And if you are fighting 24 critters who are *in* lightning bolt formation the chances are the DM expects you to use it, so its a wash anyway. The same is for fireball. That is why it is called "fireball formation". Because if you keep standing in it, you are going to get fireballed.
In actual game play you are talking about being able to hit 2 maybe 3 guys with the shot, most often though just 1 unless you are talking about *also* putting pellets into your friends butts too. Thats the other problem with AOE. It is indiscriminate. You are just as likely to pepper the fighter's rear as you are the guys you are fighting.
As for "it hits the back guys and not the front". Its no different from the guy in the center of the fireball taking no damage while the guys on the fridge take full. Its just a simplicity taken to keep the game simple rather than slowing combat down even more than using an AOE d6 damage spell already does.
-S