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The APG Errata reads
131—In the Rogue Talents section, in the Offensive Defense rogue talent, change “+1 circumstance bonus to AC” to “+1 dodge bonus to AC
for each sneak attack die rolled.”
I like this change makes it worth taking but here is my question, If im two weapon fighting and sneak attack you and say hit you three times with 4 dice of sneak attacks do I gain +12 AC or just +4 AC?
While dodge bonuses do stack, I would rule only +4 as it's from the same source.
I'm curious if you'd rule it to be only +4 b/c that's a house rule you use, or if there's someplace in the rules you're referencing that says Dodge Bonuses from the same source don't stack? (I see that for circumstance bonuses, but no such detail for Dodge).
We've chosen to play this one as Dodge Bonuses from multiple attacks from offensive defense stack. But that you only get the AC bonus against the creature you hit (not ALL creatures).
This issue has come back a few times before, iirc someone found a rule saying that bonuses from the same source don't stack no matter the bonus or something like that.
This issue has come back a few times before, iirc someone found a rule saying that bonuses from the same source don't stack no matter the bonus or something like that.
The dodge rules specifically state that they do stack with each other.
This issue has come back a few times before, iirc someone found a rule saying that bonuses from the same source don't stack no matter the bonus or something like that.
I think maybe what happened was before the APG was updated it used to grant a cirumstance bonuse for the Offensive Defense talent, and that bonus does not stack.
Bonus (Circumstance)
A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source.
Now that it is a Dodge Bonus. They specifically stack with all other bonuses, even other dodge bonuses. No mention of an exception for single source.
Bonus (Dodge)
A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks.
Bonus from the same source does not stack unless noted otherwise, so you get a very considerable AC bonus depending on your Sneak Attack dice if you manage to hit at least once.
Ruling it as a stacking bonus will make those ninjas near impossible to hit, too easy, too cheesy and wrong.
FAQed it too.
I believe it stacks because dodge bonus is very clear and very specific.
I would also like to know how sap master is handled with this.
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The talent is already excellent without stacking. It becomes completely ludicrous if the bonuses from a Rogue's TWF flurry were to stack up.
The Dodge bonus will stack with all other Dodge bonuses (e.g. from the Dodge feat), but not with repeated triggering of the same ability.
(At least that's the RAI, I'd wager. I'd be happy for a more precise wording.)
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Most bonus types do not stack at all. Armor doesn't stack with armor, enhancement with enhancement, etc.
Dodge bonuses stacking is referring to this situation. Circumstance bonuses (from different circumstances) are in a similar boat.
The "same source" stacking is a completely different section, and nothing bypasses this unless there's an explicit clause. Not even untyped bonuses can stack if they are from the same source.
Since the ability doesn't mention stacking despite coming from the same source, the highest bonus applies for the round.
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Most bonus types do not stack at all. Armor doesn't stack with armor, enhancement with enhancement, etc.
Dodge bonuses stacking is referring to this situation. Circumstance bonuses (from different circumstances) are in a similar boat.The "same source" stacking is a completely different section, and nothing bypasses this unless there's an explicit clause. Not even untyped bonuses can stack if they are from the same source.
Since the ability doesn't mention stacking despite coming from the same source, the highest bonus applies for the round.
Can't really say it more clearly than that, so I'll try for succinctly:
"Same type" and "same source" stacking are two different rules. Dodge is a type that bypasses the former limit, but nothing short of an explicit exception bypasses the latter.
Most bonus types do not stack at all. Armor doesn't stack with armor, enhancement with enhancement, etc.
Dodge bonuses stacking is referring to this situation. Circumstance bonuses (from different circumstances) are in a similar boat.The "same source" stacking is a completely different section, and nothing bypasses this unless there's an explicit clause. Not even untyped bonuses can stack if they are from the same source.
Since the ability doesn't mention stacking despite coming from the same source, the highest bonus applies for the round.
+1
Has there been any word which I might have missed as to whether this AC bonus applies to only the target of the attack, or to all enemies?
I know the original (circumstantial) bonus was against the target of the attack only, and the errata contained no language to remove that clause. However, the current PRD and APG pdf have removed the clause, leaving us with only:
When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled for 1 round.
So... any rulings? Any thoughts?
Also, the question of how it interacts with sap master is an interesting one. Does "roll your sneak attack dice twice" mean that you are rolling twice as many sneak attack dice (my impulsive answer is no, or else sap master is even more brutally strong)?
Ruling it as a stacking bonus will make those ninjas near impossible to hit, too easy, too cheesy and wrong.
How dare rogues have nice things?
And yet, ignoring the set-up necessary for a sneak attack (situational, different things set it up, different things beat those things, etc.) and even assuming it was possible to get +100 AC for a round... eh.
In terms of feeling mechanically stronger and safer, I'd still rather be playing anything with a built-in passable Fort or Will save.
+1Most bonus types do not stack at all. Armor doesn't stack with armor, enhancement with enhancement, etc.
Dodge bonuses stacking is referring to this situation. Circumstance bonuses (from different circumstances) are in a similar boat.The "same source" stacking is a completely different section, and nothing bypasses this unless there's an explicit clause. Not even untyped bonuses can stack if they are from the same source.
Since the ability doesn't mention stacking despite coming from the same source, the highest bonus applies for the round.
hmmm... "same source" is a different sentence and it explicitly refers to "bonuses without a type". Seems like Dodge bonuses have a type and specifically stack. Seems like they'd be excluded from that "same source" line. Dodge bonuses seem to be explicitly called out as stacking regardless of source.
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Has there been any word which I might have missed as to whether this AC bonus applies to only the target of the attack, or to all enemies?
I know the original (circumstantial) bonus was against the target of the attack only, and the errata contained no language to remove that clause. However, the current PRD and APG pdf have removed the clause, leaving us with only:
When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled for 1 round.So... any rulings? Any thoughts?
Also, the question of how it interacts with sap master is an interesting one. Does "roll your sneak attack dice twice" mean that you are rolling twice as many sneak attack dice (my impulsive answer is no, or else sap master is even more brutally strong)?
Since both the PRD and the latest printing (2nd) don't say anything about the target of the attack then we are to assume that this limitation was removed.
I have no idea what happens with the sap master.
Ruling it as a stacking bonus will make those ninjas near impossible to hit, too easy, too cheesy and wrong.How dare rogues have nice things?
And yet, ignoring the set-up necessary for a sneak attack (situational, different things set it up, different things beat those things, etc.) and even assuming it was possible to get +100 AC for a round... eh.
In terms of feeling mechanically stronger and safer, I'd still rather be playing anything with a built-in passable Fort or Will save.
"how dare monks/rogues/martial characters have nice things ?"
That sentence gets old fast, creating an over the top, must have, feat/option is not the way to fix things, also there is nothing wrong with the ninja it is a perfectly capable class.
What this ability does do is make every other martial character look silly as they futily try to hit the ninja/rogue, I simply look at this option from a players/perspective and then look at it thinking how much it would suck to be owned by a ninja I can only hit on a natural 20.
hmmm... "same source" is a different sentence and it explicitly refers to "bonuses without a type". Seems like Dodge bonuses have a type and specifically stack. Seems like they'd be excluded from that "same source" line. Dodge bonuses seem to be explicitly called out as stacking regardless of source.
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
You are only reading about Bonus Types. The line talking about the Dodge bonus specifically calls out the very next section (Combining Spell Effects). This other section details the stacking rules.
Under Stacking Effects, it talks about different variables from the same source taking only the highest value. This applies in this situation, and there's no provision for dodge bonuses in here.
Also, it mentions right at the start about how this affects things other than spells as well, so it definitely applies to the rogue talent.
hmmm... "same source" is a different sentence and it explicitly refers to "bonuses without a type". Seems like Dodge bonuses have a type and specifically stack. Seems like they'd be excluded from that "same source" line. Dodge bonuses seem to be explicitly called out as stacking regardless of source.
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
You are only reading about Bonus Types. The line talking about the Dodge bonus specifically calls out the very next section (Combining Spell Effects). This other section details the stacking rules.
Under Stacking Effects, it talks about different variables from the same source taking only the highest value. This applies in this situation, and there's no provision for dodge bonuses in here.
Also, it mentions right at the start about how this affects things other than spells as well, so it definitely applies to the rogue talent.
Hmmmm... Actually that section says the same thing:
Ref -
Stacking Effects
Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
Ref - Bonus Types, above:
Bonus Types
Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. The same principle applies to penalties- a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Dodge bonuses, still specifically called out as the exception to the stacking rule. And same source still referring specifically to bonuses without a type. Perhaps I've missed the section you are referencing.
Obviously house ruling this solves the problem for any group.
The section in Stacking Effects says:
"Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies."
It's a factor of applying the same spell (or ability in the case of the rogue talent) more than once, not stacking dodge bonuses.
If you had two different rogue talents that gave a dodge bonus to AC, then it would stack because of the rule under Bonus Type regarding dodge bonuses.
However, applying the Offensive Defense twice falls under the rule of applying the same thing twice. It wouldn't matter what bonus type is being used, because it's a rule about "identical spells/effects" not "dodge bonus stacking with dodge bonus".
This happens elsewhere in the rules too. For example, the spell Aid grants temporary bonus hitpoints, which normally stack. However, that doesn't mean you can cast Aid over and over and get a ton of hitpoints.. only the highest Aid spell applies.
Although durations-wise, if one runs out, then the next highest that still has duration kicks in.
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What this ability does do is make every other martial character look silly as they futily try to hit the ninja/rogue, I simply look at this option from a players/perspective and then look at it thinking how much it would suck to be owned by a ninja I can only hit on a natural 20.
You know? I'm pretty okay with that.
A lot of ducks have to line up for that scenario to happen. With that many ducks lined up, any of the caster classes will have killed your fighter. He won't be sad that he needs a 20 to hit because he'll already be creating his next character.
As well to say I'd hate to play a rogue when the fighter wins initiative and puts him straight to dead in a full attack. Everyone has their moment to shine.
The section in Stacking Effects says:
"Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies."
It's a factor of applying the same spell (or ability in the case of the rogue talent) more than once, not stacking dodge bonuses.
If you had two different rogue talents that gave a dodge bonus to AC, then it would stack because of the rule under Bonus Type regarding dodge bonuses.
However, applying the Offensive Defense twice falls under the rule of applying the same thing twice. It wouldn't matter what bonus type is being used, because it's a rule about "identical spells/effects" not "dodge bonus stacking with dodge bonus".
I see you point, and your post is very helpful. And if it were ever added to the FAQ that way by Paizo I would not be surprised.
However, the "same source" rule you reference specifically applies to spells while it only "more generally" applies to other bonus and then refers to a section that excludes dodge bonuses.
Although some bonuses like Circumstance bonuses and untyped bonuses from the same source are called out in other places as specifically not stacking, Dodge bonuses are not called out in such a way.
Vague at best.
Bonus without a type or dodge bonus always stack, unless they are from the same sources. Right, logical, and functions.
I don´t see a problem with this rogue talent.
The rogue has to win initiative and hit first to get the bonus, in the next round she has to hit again or loose it.
Given that a rogue normally has fewer attacks and lower BAB than a fighter, its lower chances. Against several oponents you would need to divert your attacks or it counts only against one. Spells are not included either in any way or saves.
Since it says "all sneak attack die rolled", it is really all.
That means it is not the number of die you get additionally on your sneak attack.
It is all die you roll to damage your foe doing sneak attack in one round.
And yes sap adept and sap master add in there, as often as you hit them.
Example:
Twilight Tony has a grudge on a certain guardsman, so he sneaks up on him in a dark alley, suprising him and winning initiative.
In the suprise round, he hits him. Since the guardsman is flat-footed, he deals sneak attack. He chooses to only knock him out, dealing nonlethal damage, what he is kind of a specialist for. He is level nine, so he deals +5d6 sneak attack. Also he learned how to deal nonlethal damage with bludgeoning weapons [Bludgeoner] and how to better knock out foes [sap adept + sap master].
So in the surprise round he deals 1d6 weapon + 5d6 sneak attack + 6d6 sapmaster + x damage, therefore getting +12 dodge bonus on his AC.
In the next round if he would hit him twice, he would get +24 dodge bonus on his AC, but since he didn´t bother to learn feinting or other good tricks to make foes loose their DEX bonus to AC, he can´t deal sneak attack, so he doesn´t get anything and the grumbling, swaying guardsman pays him back deftly, being glad that Twilight Tony is no ninja with certain style feats^^
By the way, the feat Osyluth Guile allows something similar, giving CHA bonus as a dodge bonus vs one foe when fighting defensively for one round. O a ninja or a face rogue that could already be a 7 too.
Bonus without a type or dodge bonus always stack, unless they are from the same sources. Right, logical, and functions.
Can you point out where you've seen it say that Dodge Bonuses from the same source don't stack?