my player has the trait "wealthy and craft skills.
He wants to know if he can burn the gold on having crated masterwork equipment before the game starts
You're going to need to be more specific here. What trait are you referring to? I don't see a "wealthy" trait. I see Wealthy Dabbler, but that doesn't add any gold, it adds cantrip spells.
He probably has the Rich Parents trait. I'd allow the masterwork items, but make him buy them at full price.
He probably has the Rich Parents trait. I'd allow the masterwork items, but make him buy them at full price.
I wondered if that's what he meant. I think he wants to know if the PC can actually craft his own masterwork items though. At least that was how I read it. If so you're dealing with a whole lot of different variables, like which craft skill does he have, weapons, armor, etc. If you're just spending the coin on masterwork items, I totally agree, pay full price.
There are two schools of thought on Starting Characters and and skills/feats for item creation. And they all fall to DM rule as there is nothing in the rules as far as I know.
The first school of thought is that items have value that is static. A character is designed to have XX GP worth of VALUE at the start of the game irregardless of starting level. So if a character with Scribe Scroll feat wants to start with scrolls he must pay the street value for the item and not the reduced cost due to his feat. The feat is for in game use only and not background use.
The other school of thought is that skills and feats are value in themselves and players SHOULD be able to start of with reduced cost items. So a fighter with ranks in Craft Armor, Craft Weapon and Craft Bow can basically TRIPLE the value of his starting money by making all his armor and weapons himself as part of the background of character creation.
Where this becomes a major issue is if starting at higher level. If a party is starting at level 10 they all get 62,000 GP to buy stuff. If a wizard has all the item creation feats and is given the same amount of gold he can start with 124,000 GP worth of magic items with the feats if you use the second rule listed above.
...with ranks in Craft Armor, Craft Weapon and Craft Bow can basically TRIPLE the value of his starting money by making all his armor and weapons himself as part of the background of character creation...
So there is a way to make the crafting feats not completely worthless!
Sorry, Rich Parents, i guess is the proper name.
There are two schools of thought on Starting Characters and and skills/feats for item creation. And they all fall to DM rule as there is nothing in the rules as far as I know.
The first school of thought is that items have value that is static. A character is designed to have XX GP worth of VALUE at the start of the game irregardless of starting level. So if a character with Scribe Scroll feat wants to start with scrolls he must pay the street value for the item and not the reduced cost due to his feat. The feat is for in game use only and not background use.
The other school of thought is that skills and feats are value in themselves and players SHOULD be able to start of with reduced cost items. So a fighter with ranks in Craft Armor, Craft Weapon and Craft Bow can basically TRIPLE the value of his starting money by making all his armor and weapons himself as part of the background of character creation.
This is the question Im asking.
I always thought it was the former
But the second is a possible option.
So is it allowed/accepted?
This is a question only you can answer, do you wish to allow it in your campaign? Most DMs do not. I have allowed it, I may only allow it with mundane items (no magic items) if I allow it again.
I would allow it, but many would not. It's essentially completely up to you as the DM.
A workable compromise between the two schools of thought may be to only allow crafting from half of the character's starting gold, rather than the full value. That would give the character some bonus from having those feats, without being too unbalancing.
This has come up in several threads around here over the past year or so, and while there was no unanimous decision or ruling from the Paizo writers, the majority have said that craft feats and skills cannot be put into use until after the initial adventure session has started. The general feeling boiled down to why should your character be allowed to spend months making armor or weapons that put you way ahead of the other starting characters for wealth.
This has come up in several threads around here over the past year or so, and while there was no unanimous decision or ruling from the Paizo writers, the majority have said that craft feats and skills cannot be put into use until after the initial adventure session has started. The general feeling boiled down to why should your character be allowed to spend months making armor or weapons that put you way ahead of the other starting characters for wealth.
Also (from what i heard) is that the players may be able to say that they don't spend their gold and then instead of starting the campaing right away they instead stay put for a few months and they craft whatever they want, or do something like that.
Anyway as others have said there is no unanimous decision on that subjuct let alone an official answer.
You could make him role all the skill checks to make the items. No "Taking 20". Since those items would technically be created before the 1st level of the PC class was taken, he doesn't get the +3 for class skill bonus. Might make it a bit harder to hit that DC 20 for the masterwork component with a skill bonus of, probably at most, a +3.
Also, you could keep track of wealth per level closely. He may start off with a lot of good stuff, but watch other characters claim the early masterwork treasure because "he already gots some."
Skills and feats are a serious investment for a character. They should pay off for them. Why on earth would anyone take craft: weapon smith, whats probably 1/2 or 1/3 of their skill points, and then get NOTHING for it?
Let your character get pimped out.
BNW, while Id agree with you normally, given that you can now start with an extra 900 gold....
You'll be a god for first level, good at 3rd, and by 5th level almost any other trait will be better than a 1% increase in your net worth. I've had characters save far, far far more gold with hedge wizard.
If the character is starting above 1st level, then sure, some of their gear they could have made themselves. But for starting characters, I, and several others I have talked with or gamed with, feel this should not be allowed. Otherwise, all the other players will complain that their characters should be able to be making extra gold during that same time if you allow characters to do things BEFORE the first adventure even starts. This is part of the reason why crafting feats and the rich parents trait are not allowed in PFS play, they throw off the starting wealth curve too much.
As a player, I would never have complained if one of my fellow players was allowed to actually use a trait and a feat for something useful.
Most of the time, the character would be much better served in the long run by taking a different trait and a different feat (unless the campaign ends at around 3rd level). There is nothing particularly unbalancing about getting +1 to hit one level early, when you're spending two very limited resources to do so.
Besides, what's stopping the player from declaring that he takes his starting gold as gold coins, and spends the first x days crafting his masterwork items before going anywhere?
I assume you meant "take 10" since you cant take 20 on crafting.
But that sounds like an interesting idea.
I didn't realize that so thanks for pointing that out to me. So it seems that by RAW, the character would have to make the rolls for any chance at hitting the DC 20 for the masterwork component. Good luck hitting those 17's.
Besides, what's stopping the player from declaring that he takes his starting gold as gold coins, and spends the first x days crafting his masterwork items before going anywhere?
Place your characters in the tavern...
Besides, what's stopping the player from declaring that he takes his starting gold as gold coins, and spends the first x days crafting his masterwork items before going anywhere?
I was going to include a comment about that in my previous post, so I will do that now as it is not a matter of a few days or even a couple of weeks.
Let's say player A wants to craft his masterwork armor. Many months later he is done. The rest of the party returns from adventuring several levels higher because they did not want to wait around twiddling their thumbs while he made his armor. So now you have this 1st level character with some spiffy masterwork armor, while his buddies are all many levels higher, with lots of magic and wealth.
Besides, what's stopping the player from declaring that he takes his starting gold as gold coins, and spends the first x days crafting his masterwork items before going anywhere?
I was going to include a comment about that in my previous post, so I will do that now as it is not a matter of a few days or even a couple of weeks.
Let's say player A wants to craft his masterwork armor. Many months later he is done. The rest of the party returns from adventuring several levels higher because they did not want to wait around twiddling their thumbs while he made his armor. So now you have this 1st level character with some spiffy masterwork armor, while his buddies are all many levels higher, with lots of magic and wealth.
That makes no sense to me. If you will let the rest of the party adventure without that character, and gain much more than the feat could ever give him, why NOT let him use the feat before play starts? Would you ever let the feat be useful? If not, just disallow all item creation feats.
Your argument reads, to me, as if you consider "If you want to use your feat, so be it, but the rest of the group is going on this adventure and gaining many levels and much more gold than you could ever hope to gain by using your feat" more reasonable than "Fine, you can use your feat before play starts, so everyone can adventure at the same time, and your character's slight starting benefit is soon outweighed".
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He wants to know if he can burn the gold on having crated masterwork equipment before the game starts
I let players do this, but I allow only 1 item per craft skill. So if the player has Craft(weapons), Craft(bows) Craft(armor) and Craft(leather), he can make one longsword(weapons), one shortbow(bows), one light shield(armor), and studded leather armor(leather). A total of 4 skills for 4 items.
I allow it.
It's letting the players use their skill point investments, trait investments and feat investments. In the long run, it has a very small affect on the game, if any at all. As you mentioned earlier, it makes for a better story, when they get the trusty xxxx enchanted, rather than toss it for a new shiny.
The counter argument, applied to other areas, doesn't make sense. Does the Druid start off with an animal companion that hasn't been trained (or anyone starting off with a pet or mount)? If the druid can take weeks or months to obtain and train their companion, why can't another player take weeks or months to make a weapon? Or buy a few more spells (paying access to spellbooks rather than buying scrolls)?
I didn't realize that so thanks for pointing that out to me. So it seems that by RAW, the character would have to make the rolls for any chance at hitting the DC 20 for the masterwork component. Good luck hitting those 17's.I assume you meant "take 10" since you cant take 20 on crafting.
But that sounds like an interesting idea.
Every class has Craft as a class skill. So, a dwarf with the Craftsman alternate racial trait (+2 on all Craft or Profession checks to create metal or stone objects; replaces Greed), 14 Int, Rich Parents (900 gp starting wealth), Craft (Armor) 1, Craft (Weapons) 1, masterwork artisan tools (Craft (Armor); 55 gp), and masterwork artisan tools (Craft (Weapons); 55 gp):
Craft (Armor) check = 1 (ranks) +3 (class skill) +2 (Int) +2 (Craftsman) +2 (masterwork artisan tools) = +10
Craft (Weapons) check = 1 (ranks) +3 (class skill) +2 (Int) +2 (Craftsman) +2 (masterwork artisan tools) = +10
The character can craft masterwork metal armor and weapons by taking 10.
Remaining wealth = 900 - 110 = 790 gp
Note that the character used no feats or any skill ranks beyond the bonus for Int.
Do you want a 1st level PC to start with masterwork full plate (craft cost 550 gp), a masterwork heavy crossbow (craft cost 116 gp, 6 sp, 7 cp), and a masterwork dwarven waraxe (craft cost 110 gp), with 13 gp, 3 sp, 3 cp for other equipment (a masterwork light crossbow and masterwork greatsword would cost slightly more, leaving 11 gp, 6 sp, 6 cp)?
Or a half-elf with Adaptability (Skill Focus (Craft (Bows))), 12 Int, Rich Parents, Craft (Bows) 1, and masterwork artisan tools (Craft (Bows); 55 gp):
Craft (Bows) check = 1 (ranks) +3 (class skill) +1 (Int) +3 (Skill Focus) +2 (masterwork artisan tools) = +10
The PC can start with a masterwork composite longbow (+2 Str) for 200 gp, leaving 645 gp for other gear.
That's what you open yourself up to by allowing PCs to craft items using starting wealth. If you allow it, don't be surprised when the majority of PCs are dwarves, gnomes (Obsession), half-elves, and humans with Craft check modifiers of +10.
Besides, starting wealth already represents items/money the PCs crafted for themselves, inherited, received as gifts/rewards, etc. before the start of the campaign. The cost breaks for crafting are technically already factored in.
Coming into the campaign with items means they didn't roll for them. Just make them roll it out. And make sure they have access to the necessary facilities.
That makes no sense to me. If you will let the rest of the party adventure without that character, and gain much more than the feat could ever give him, why NOT let him use the feat before play starts? Would you ever let the feat be useful? If not, just disallow all item creation feats.
The item creation feats are useful regardless, because even if you play in a world with no reduction in magic item shopping availability, your character isn't always going to be able to buy what he wants. If you're in a village and need a scroll of Dimension Door, the chance of you finding a merchant is very, very small (it has to be one of 2d4 random magic items). Scribing is very useful in that case. And even if you're in a metropolis, there's a 1/4 that you can't find it the first week. It also requires less cash on hand, even if the DM adjudicates the WBL later on.
And many games have less magic item shops than the norm, so for those games it's very, very useful.
It's a feat. It's a similar investment as Skill Focus, Toughness or whatever. It shouldn't double your WBL.
There's a bigger issue with craft skills though, as non-magical items are usually available in any place they could be crafted, and because the craft skill take sooo much time to use. I'd probably allow a player that invests in the craft skills a few trinkets here and there above the WBL, but nothing dramatic like three-doubling his starting gold. Giving him a masterwork weapon for 100 gp is fine, having him crafting a hole bunch of them to sell and buy a plate mail isn't.
The item creation feats are useful regardless, because even if you play in a world with no reduction in magic item shopping availability, your character isn't always going to be able to buy what he wants. If you're in a village and need a scroll of Dimension Door, the chance of you finding a merchant is very, very small (it has to be one of 2d4 random magic items). Scribing is very useful in that case. And even if you're in a metropolis, there's a 1/4 that you can't find it the first week. It also requires less cash on hand, even if the DM adjudicates the WBL later on.
This is true until higher levels. After that There's no real reason to keep a pc from getting what they want when they can teleport from capital to capital for shopping trips
Wizard: "Hey, I'm going to stop in MetroCapital, capitalmetro, Star City, and then paladin ville, for a blessed bolt. You need anything?"
Fighter "Might need a few potions of cure serious wounds"
Wizard " Good, keep playing with that rakasha till i get back"
This is true until higher levels. After that There's no real reason to keep a pc from getting what they want when they can teleport from capital to capital for shopping trips
Wizard: "Hey, I'm going to stop in MetroCapital, capitalmetro, Star City, and then paladin ville, for a blessed bolt. You need anything?"
Fighter "Might need a few potions of cure serious wounds"
Wizard " Good, keep playing with that rakasha till i get back"
I generally agree with you, but a few things should be pointed out I think:
Even metropolises have a max of 16000, after that it's all random. 3d4 major and 4d4 medium for a metropolis, and exactly how many metropolises there are in a world depend a lot. How many are there in golarion? I'm not to read up on golarion since I usually keep to homebrew worlds, did a quick search on the golariopedia which gave 29 results. There might be more, I don't know, but anyway...
Then it depends on how fast you can buy it in that city. If you're familiar with the city you might have underlings there keeping track of what items are readily for sale, and knowing if the item is available in the city might take no more than three minutes. On the other hand, if you've rarely or never been to the city, or your relationship with it is strained (maybe you killed their king? you're an adventurer after all), finding out what's available may take many hours or even a full day.
It's still probably far quicker to buy it than to craft it, unless it's of very limited availability for some reason.
But I'm quite fine with that, generally. I think it's okay that a feat loses value as you level up, if it's really useful at lower levels. Partly because not all campaigns go to those levels, and partly because it's quite common. While I prefer feats that scale and I'm glad PF has taken toughness, skill focus and the like in that direction, it's still true that it's not that uncommon (at level 15, dodge and endurance doesn't look that good either...).
I'm not saying they are the greatest feats ever if you take WBL into account - in fact, I think they're a little bit sub-par and to specific and we have a simple three-grade item creation feat system in our games (one-charge, charged, permanent). I think that if we DON'T take this into account though, they DO become the greatest feat ever (maybe together with a very liberaly used Leadership).
So there's two possible readings for the feat:
1. Not increase wealth. The feats are a circumstantial ability that are useful now-and then and lose power at higher levels.
2. Increase wealth. The feats allow you to access a wealth several levels above their own, they become immensely powerful and especially if the caster has some time on their hands.
I'm not saying one is more RAW than the other, since WBL itself is only a guideline, but I think one makes more sense.
EDIT: Now I'm talking about the ICF with caster level requirement 5 or lower. The higher-level ones are mostly just bad feats, far too circumstantial, like Endurance.
That makes no sense to me. If you will let the rest of the party adventure without that character, and gain much more than the feat could ever give him, why NOT let him use the feat before play starts? Would you ever let the feat be useful? If not, just disallow all item creation feats.The item creation feats are useful regardless, because even if you play in a world with no reduction in magic item shopping availability, your character isn't always going to be able to buy what he wants. If you're in a village and need a scroll of Dimension Door, the chance of you finding a merchant is very, very small (it has to be one of 2d4 random magic items). Scribing is very useful in that case. And even if you're in a metropolis, there's a 1/4 that you can't find it the first week. It also requires less cash on hand, even if the DM adjudicates the WBL later on.
And many games have less magic item shops than the norm, so for those games it's very, very useful.
My point was that if the DM won't let a character spend time crafting (or lets him spend crafting, but every other character goes on adventures while he does), then they will never be useful.
I know how useful item creation feats are, and even with my rules very few of my players take them. The thing is, having double/triple WBL at first level isn't so good that it's worth both a feat and a trait. That's why I would allow it in a heartbeat (after explaining to the player that he'll regret not having a more useful trait and a more useful feat later on).
my player has the trait "wealthy and craft skills.
He wants to know if he can burn the gold on having crated masterwork equipment before the game starts
I'd say "Yes, but you have to roll for it during chargen." Keep in mind that creating a masterwork item has a craft DC of 20, separate from the craft DC of the main piece and that both need to be completed.
As for Dragonchess Player's example, I agree it's entirely possible to start out with a +10 mod, but even without giving up any feats, you're still giving up things: What stats does the fighter have lower in order to have that 14 int? Were they planning on being a combat expertise fighter? If not, they're burning stat points on being able to craft. The elf who spends his skill focus on crafting isn't spending it on a skill like perception or acrobatics and isn't trading it for a weapon proficiency.
In either case, as other people have pointed out, you're spending a trait on gold that won't matter after a few levels, rather than an ongoing bonus that will be useful up to level 20.
I think that assuming a reasonable leveling speed and that you're not in an E6 game, it's perfectly reasonable to give a first level player a chance at having a masterwork item a level or two early in exchange for the utter irrelevancy of those choices in 3 levels.
900 gold is 900 gold. It's awesome at 1st level, but in the longer view, just about any trait will serve you better over time (I'd much prefer a +1 to a weak save. I'll get better gear as I find/buy it.). A few MW items at 1st is a little bit of an advantage, but by 3rd, most players will have them, and you're trudging along the WBL chart with everybody else. Each level makes it less relevant.
If the character has a "rich kid" backstory, I'm fine with it. It won't break anything. Good luck crafting at your own convenience. How are you going to drag all that stuff around with you in a dungeon?
I know how useful item creation feats are, and even with my rules very few of my players take them. The thing is, having double/triple WBL at first level isn't so good that it's worth both a feat and a trait. That's why I would allow it in a heartbeat (after explaining to the player that he'll regret not having a more useful trait and a more useful feat later on).
Well, the trait is enough for six times normal starting gold. A 1/3 cost for everything after that, means a fighter will have 18 times as much starting equipment as a normal character - or three times the WBL of a second-level character. He's over the WBL of a 3rd level character.
But this isn't about feats really, it's about skills. The feats can't even be taken at 1st level (apart from scribe scroll, and brew potion for the witch). Usually, I wouldn't have anything against a cleric taking rich parents and scribe scroll in order to craft and start out with a lot of scrolls either, since those can help the whole party (at least if he mixes things up a bit) and he puts both a trait and feat into it, but a fighter starting out with equipment that would normally cost 3000 GP, even if it's mundane equipment, for such a low price as two skill points and a trait... I wouldn't like that, simply because he'll overshadow the other characters for two levels to come (especially since fighters are strong enough already at low levels).
Note that it's enough cash to start with a masterwork full plate and a masterwork greatsword, putting his AC to astronomical levels while still having a high-quality two-handed weapon. If he's still granted normal treasures after that, he'll be up to about 4000 wealth by level 2.
I think the suggestion made by Thomas LeBlanc is a good one - allow one item per point of craft skills. Personally, I'd probably do this:
- For every point of craft skills, you can have one mundane item with only the creation cost counting towards your WBL.
- For every item creation feat, you can have three magical items only with only the creation cost counting toward your WBL. The price reduction can not be greater than 10% of your WBL (so at 5rd level with craft wand, you can exceed your WBL with the wands you create by half their market price or 1050 gp, whichever is less)
- You always count the most expensive items.
This would mean a craftsman, whether mundane or magical, WILL be more well-equipped than someone who doesn't craft, but it will not double their WBL.
EDIT: I'll start using this right now in my two current campaigns I think. The bard will be happy-appy.