This seems to be a topic that people feel strongly about, and it doesn't belong in Borthos Brewhammer's suggestion thread. So I made this thread as a place for people to discuss it. Please be respectful, and always explain why you think gunslingers should or should not get fighter feats.
I think they should. Although gunslingers are not alternate fighters, the bonus feats should be allowed to be off the fighter-only list. The timing is suggestive (every four levels starting at 4 is perfect for spec, greater focus, greater spec, etc), and those feats help make up for a pretty huge differential in damage potential.
I know a lot of people feel that fighters get feats, and that's their "thing", so they shouldn't have to share. I understand that stance, but I feel it's no longer accurate. In v3.0 and v3.5, that was true, but now fighters get armor training and weapon training and feats, among other abilities. Their 'trick' isn't feats anymore, but all that other stuff, and the extra feats are a super nice bonus class feature. They aren't the defining class feature anymore. Therefore, I think fighter-only feats should be available to other classes, and not nearly as restricted.
I think maybe do what WotC did with a few 3.5 classes and give them an effective fighter level (EFL) of GS level -2 or something
I've never liked Fighter only feats, it should be based solely on BAB, in Pathfinder more than 3.5.
I'd say allow fighter only feats, but only for firearms that they have Gun Training in.
I don't like the idea of the gunslinger outpacing the fighter, but it doesn't seem fair that the fighter can have "greater weapon focus: pistol" while the gunslinger can't. I mean, it's the gunslinger!
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Why not make Gun Training a choice between the actual "Pick a new kind of gun, gain +1 to att. and +dex. to damage with theses ones", and something like "You can also pick several times the same kind of gun, and gain +1 to att and damage with them" ?
It would make for the loss of Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization - when a Fighter would have them, plus the weapon training full bonus.
Why not make Gun Training a choice between the actual "Pick a new kind of gun, gain +1 to att. and +dex. to damage with theses ones", and something like "You can also pick several times the same kind of gun, and gain +1 to att and damage with them" ?
It would make for the loss of Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization - when a Fighter would have them, plus the weapon training full bonus.
I like that idea
Fighter only feats should be fighter only.
I completely agree... but I completely disagree :D
I explain. IMHO Jadeite is rigtht, fighter only feats are for fighter only. Point being, that Gunslinger should be kept a fighter alternative. Perhaps a very diverse one, but still a fighter.
Is not only a matter of mechanichal advantage (weapon specialization or penetrating strike), is a matter of fluff too: in some setting, the gunlsinger WILL be the real and only fighter, because axe wielding dreadnoughts will be not present.
Feats are a fighter's main feature. Currently though everyone and their brother receives bonus feats:
Rangers get 6 over 20 levels.
Monks get 7 over 20 levels.
Wizards get 5 over 20 levels.
and so on:
Now then the fighter gets more than everyone else -- but not that much more and everyone else receives spells or other specials (like ignoring prerequisites), better saves/skill points or all three.
So what makes the fighter special then? The feat choices only he can take (basically class features he can choose) -- except those keep getting handed out to everyone else too (ranger can get point blank mastery, zen archer gets that and weapon specialization -- and so forth) -- so the few things that make a fighter something other than a smuck, keep getting taken from him and handed out.
That's wrong. IF fighter only feats are to be something worth having then they should be worth taking fighter levels for -- if everyone can have them then they are not worth taking fighter levels for and why have them.
Basically the argument is "If we are going to have this, then we need to have it and stick to it instead of saying one thing and doing another."
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I agree the gunslinger needs something on this front -- but I don't like the idea of it being access to fighter only feats.
Why not make Gun Training a choice between the actual "Pick a new kind of gun, gain +1 to att. and +dex. to damage with theses ones", and something like "You can also pick several times the same kind of gun, and gain +1 to att and damage with them" ?
It would make for the loss of Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization - when a Fighter would have them, plus the weapon training full bonus.
I...don't know if i posted this in another thread or not? Too many threads read over the last few days. Any ways, her's my idea for the Guntraining dilemma.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the gunslinger becomes further trained in another type of firearm. She gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using this new firearm. In addition, any bonuses granted to a previous firearm increase by +1 each. For example, when a gunslinger reaches 9th level, she receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one type of firearm and a +2 bonus on attack rolls and a bonus to damage rolls with the firearm selected at 1st level equal to her Dexterity modifier +1. Firearms that are similar, such as musket and axe musket, are counted as the same type of firearm for bonuses related to gun training.
A gunslinger also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with these firearms. This bonus also applies to the gunslinger’s Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against firearms selected for gun training.
gunslinger is already feat starved, I WANT no name but can NEVER see taking it! (and im not an optimizer type) throwing in extra feats available would drive me insane!
Gun training should improve and keep pace with leveling up, I like the idea of being able to take the same gun again for +1 damage
Edit: or what elghinn wrote
points
Well I know we'll agree to disagree. I feel that they made the decision to make it part of the "fighter thing" when they didn't do away with it at the change over -- in fact the designers themselves stated that fighter feats were part of what makes the fighter special and specifically introduced more fighter feats specifically to help give the fighter more choices and make them less of a joke.
My only request of them is, "If this is the bed you made (and you did) then you best sleep in it as you designed it."
They told us this was how it was going to be -- I expect them to abide by that or announce they got it wrong and give the fighter a "do over" in some fashion or form.
and THAT's why we shouldnt steal anything from fighter for other classes.
Basically tho, EK and Samurai have already dipped into it.... we need to keep this from happening or the fighter will fade away like they did in 1E and 2E
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and THAT's why we shouldnt steal anything from fighter for other classes.
Basically tho, EK and Samurai have already dipped into it.... we need to keep this from happening or the fighter will fade away like they did in 1E and 2E
The most damaging and highest AC class fade away? I kinda doubt it.
I support giving the Gunslinger the Weapon Focus/ Spec line of feats through either Gun Training or their Bonus Feat ability.
and THAT's why we shouldnt steal anything from fighter for other classes.
Basically tho, EK and Samurai have already dipped into it.... we need to keep this from happening or the fighter will fade away like they did in 1E and 2E
The most damaging and highest AC class fade away? I kinda doubt it.
I support giving the Gunslinger the Weapon Focus/ Spec line of feats through either Gun Training or their Bonus Feat ability.
Matthew, How long have you been playing this Game? This has happened before.
Way back when weapon specialization was first introduced, it was fighter only, then everyone whined and cried and they handed it out and poof, no one played a fighter again, it has happened a few times over the course of the game.If other classes with more flavor and gimmick can get the fighters abilities how will they be the most damaging and highest AC if you let everyone into their candy bowl?
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Matthew, How long have you been playing this Game?
Pathfinder? Since the beta. But I don't see how that's relevant to the discussion.
If other classes with more flavor and gimmick can get the fighters abilities how will they be the most damaging and highest AC if you let everyone into their candy bowl?
Because feets are not a very tasty candy. Running around the battlefield in full plate at full speed? Thats tasty.
Similarly no weapon class will ever even get close to a fighters damage output without Weapon Training (that goes up in level unlike Gun Training) and the weapon spec line of feets.
If you're talking about fighters in 3.5, thats a whole different can of worms and off topic. Though I will say I knew many, many people in 3.5 who were Fighter 2/ Chedder X/ Swiss Y / Limburger Z. So lots of people took the fighter class.
Matthew, How long have you been playing this Game?
Pathfinder? Since the beta. But I don't see how that's relevant to the discussion.
If other classes with more flavor and gimmick can get the fighters abilities how will they be the most damaging and highest AC if you let everyone into their candy bowl?Because feets are not a very tasty candy. Running around the battlefield in full plate at full speed? Thats tasty.
Similarly no weapon class will ever even get close to a fighters damage output without Weapon Training (that goes up in level unlike Gun Training) and the weapon spec line of feets.
If you're talking about fighters in 3.5, thats a whole different can of worms and off topic. Though I will say I knew many, many people in 3.5 who were Fighter 2/ Chedder X/ Swiss Y / Limburger Z. So lots of people took the fighter class.
No Im not talking about 3.5, as I clearly stated in my original post 1E and 2E. And It's not off topic since it is my topic, and the basis of the example.
And Gun training DOESN'T scale like weapon training.
A barbarian's bonus from STr rises and equals Weapon Training...but with ALL weapons.
Give him weapon spec on top, and he'll out damage the Fighter with 2h weapons. And he's got a whole slew of stuff the Fighter can't get, whereas TH and DMG bonuses are dripping off classes all over the place.
Feats only fighters can qualify for are no different then feats which you need a specific class ability to qualify for, like, oh, a sorcerous bloodline, or Mercy, or what have you.
You start ripping open other classes special abilities for Fighters to take with feats, and you can have Weapon Spec. I'm looking forward to the Raging Fighter with Challenges, Favored Enemy, Sneak attacks, and arcane spellcasting!
==Aelryinth
A barbarian's bonus from STr rises and equals Weapon Training...but with ALL weapons.
Give him weapon spec on top, and he'll out damage the Fighter with 2h weapons. And he's got a whole slew of stuff the Fighter can't get, whereas TH and DMG bonuses are dripping off classes all over the place.
Feats only fighters can qualify for are no different then feats which you need a specific class ability to qualify for, like, oh, a sorcerous bloodline, or Mercy, or what have you.
You start ripping open other classes special abilities for Fighters to take with feats, and you can have Weapon Spec. I'm looking forward to the Raging Fighter with Challenges, Favored Enemy, Sneak attacks, and arcane spellcasting!
==Aelryinth
Agreed.
Although Barbs can only do it some times (while raging) and for the duration of the rage, they do have negatives when they come off rage (until higher levels) and I think I'd still choose a fighter simply because of more options open "in the moment"
Leave it as it is. The class is called "Gunslinger", it is not an alternate like the Two-Hand Fighter or Archer from the APG.
The Gunslinger gets Dex to damage, and it has been argued many times before that Dex is a better stat since it's modifier is used for AC, ranged to hit, skills, and reflex saves already. They target touch AC at close range and for a grit point, longer ranges, and can have Deadly Aim apply.
A nonhuman Gunslinger 8 probably only has Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw. No room for weapon focus/specialization.
A fighter using a musket does 1d12+2 whereas a Gunslinger does 1d12+dex modifier. The gunslinger will come out ahead.
Leave it as it is. The class is called "Gunslinger", it is not an alternate like the Two-Hand Fighter or Archer from the APG.
The Gunslinger gets Dex to damage, and it has been argued many times before that Dex is a better stat since it's modifier is used for AC, ranged to hit, skills, and reflex saves already. They target touch AC at close range and for a grit point, longer ranges, and can have Deadly Aim apply.
A nonhuman Gunslinger 8 probably only has Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw. No room for weapon focus/specialization.
A fighter using a musket does 1d12+2 whereas a Gunslinger does 1d12+dex modifier. The gunslinger will come out ahead.
agreed there is not room for fighter only feats anyway, if there needs to be any kind of focus (and I think there does) it needs to be in deeds
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I'd allow fighter feats for gunslinger. He's already suffering from various limitations as is...
here's my solution: don't allow fighter feats, but allow them to use a fighter feat if they take a penalty to the attack roll (have a table showing the various penalties for various fighter or combat feats; i.e. -8 to hit = disarm; -12 = sunder; with the shotgun/blunderbuss = -8 = bullrush, simulating a nice knockback gunshot! :) ) As I mentioned in other threads, they have an abundance/surplus in the attack roll department. So when in the first range increment, if they take that penalty, as a part of an attack, and hit the target's Touch AC, they deal damage normally (stackable with Vital Strike if done as a standard) and get to try a CMB check as a free action (this one is done normally, i.e. not at -8 or -12 or whatever) This can't be combined with Dead Shot... (so probably, the final wording on this should use as part of the "Attack" action... just like Vital Strike wording.. and thus would stack with Vital Strike...)
There, you can thank me later. And I didn't even eat a pickle for that one.
The "Bonus Feats" could address something like that by making the following changes.
Thoughts? Allows access but penalizes?
I haven't looked at the revamped Gunslinger, but are firearms eligible for weapon training?
If so, I'll put a Fighter with firearms up against a Gunslinger, especially w Deadly Aim available. Weapons Training, Spec tree, 1/2 dex to dmg if applicable, easily out shoot a gunslinger.
=Aelryinth
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The "Bonus Feats" could address something like that by making the following changes.
** spoiler omitted **
Thoughts? Allows access but penalizes?
I don't like penalizing someone for a feat he paid for. Either you allow access or don't. If you don't, I'd recommend working in some feat-like abilities that are activated as part of an Attack action by taking penalties to the attack roll. Remember this guy *will always, always hit except when he rolls a 1*
TOPIC
No. Fighter only feats are fighter only. That would be as silly as allowing a fighter to just take Improved Critical.
The fighter is the hardest hitter and highest AC class.
But why? Because of the fighter feats, that's why. If you let the rogue have access to the fighter feats, why play the fighter? The fighter doesn't magically add on 10d6 worth of damage like the rogue does, and any extra damage that the fighter does from feats can be copied by the rogue.
So if you allow fighter only feats to other classes, the fighter loses his niche.
TOPICNo. Fighter only feats are fighter only. That would be as silly as allowing a fighter to just take Improved Critical.
The fighter is the hardest hitter and highest AC class.But why? Because of the fighter feats, that's why. If you let the rogue have access to the fighter feats, why play the fighter? The fighter doesn't magically add on 10d6 worth of damage like the rogue does, and any extra damage that the fighter does from feats can be copied by the rogue.
So if you allow fighter only feats to other classes, the fighter loses his niche.
Exacta-mundo.
Why not make Gun Training a choice between the actual "Pick a new kind of gun, gain +1 to att. and +dex. to damage with theses ones", and something like "You can also pick several times the same kind of gun, and gain +1 to att and damage with them" ?
It would make for the loss of Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization - when a Fighter would have them, plus the weapon training full bonus.
I...don't know if i posted this in another thread or not? Too many threads read over the last few days. Any ways, her's my idea for the Guntraining dilemma.
** spoiler omitted **
I actually like this tweak on gun training a lot. I do have one slight problem with it. Check the spoiler tag for my problem, as well as the solution.
One other thing. I'm not certain that the bit about similar firearms should be in there. I put that section in italics just so we are clear on what I'm referring to. My real problem is that it gets really vague on what is and is not a similar firearm. Additionally, I don't think that an axe musket and a musket are as similar as you think. When you think about it, the entire feel of a gun that can also be used as a battle axe would be different from a gun that is only used to fire bullets. That being said, I do not know where paizo plans to go with the guns. If the selection is broad enough, then I would support something like this. Otherwise, this part should be taken out
Gun Training: (EX)
Starting at 5th level, a gunslinger [u]can select one specific type of firearm (such as an axe musket, blunderbuss, musket, or pistol).[/u] She gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls, and a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing [/u]that type of firearm[/u]. Furthermore, when she misfires with that type of firearm, the misfire value of that firearm increases by 2 instead of 4.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the gunslinger becomes further trained in another type of firearm. She gains a +1 bonus on attack [u]rolls and a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls[/u] when using this new firearm. In addition, any bonuses granted to a previous firearm increase by +1 each. For example, when a gunslinger reaches 9th level, she receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one type of firearm and a +2 bonus on attack rolls and a bonus to damage rolls with the firearm selected at [u]5th[/u] level equal to her Dexterity modifier +1. Firearms that are similar, such as musket and axe musket, are counted as the same type of firearm for bonuses related to gun training.
A gunslinger also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with these firearms. This bonus also applies to the gunslinger’s Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against firearms selected for gun training.