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So much is condensed in pathfinder as well as a number of changes overall that i am going to have many questions i think. Hopefully this is the place to get some clarifications.
1. can shadows crit? and do they still get 50% miss chance for being incorporeal. Could not find reference for either in any books so I took it as no for now. Please correct me if I am wrong.
2. Revelations (Oracle) how many times per day can they be cast. They seem to be in addition to normal spells so they dont take up a slot, just need to know how many times these can be cast.
3. Sorceror/Sumnoner....When learning new spells can they learn them from scrolls and spellbooks...had a discussion last game session on this and my player seemed to think his spells just manifested themselves without having to learn them from anything. My argument is that without either seeing a spell done or looking over some description or document then he has no choice over what spells manifest. They would be totally random if they just relied on manifesting themselves. I realize there are spells to choose from and that is my point, if he can choose he must be able to choose from something. How does he get say magic missile if hes never seen or heard of it, theoretically he wouldnt even know it existed. I am not forcing him to carry a spellbook or anything but he needs a way to acquire spells and could look over a spellbook just to get the spell.
Does any of this make sense using the pathfinder system?????
Have been DMing since 1976 but am a newbie to this pathfinder.
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These questions really belong up in the rules section (so I flagged for a forum change) but I'll take my shot at answering.
1. can shadows crit? and do they still get 50% miss chance for being incorporeal. Could not find reference for either in any books so I took it as no for now. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Yes they can crit. All creatures have a minimum 20/x2 crit modifier. So you can have double the strength drain. Incorporeal creatures no longer take a 50% miss chance, they simply take 50% damage from all weapons. You do need a magic weapon though to do damage.
2. Revelations (Oracle) how many times per day can they be cast. They seem to be in addition to normal spells so they dont take up a slot, just need to know how many times these can be cast.
Unless the revelations state a specific number of uses per day, they can be used at any time. For example, the Combat Healer revelation can be used once per day at 7th and one additional time for every four levels path 7th. Conversely the Skill At Arms revelation simply makes you proficient in heavy armor.
3. Sorceror/Sumnoner....When learning new spells can they learn them from scrolls and spellbooks...had a discussion last game session on this and my player seemed to think his spells just manifested themselves without having to learn them from anything. My argument is that without either seeing a spell done or looking over some description or document then he has no choice over what spells manifest. They would be totally random if they just relied on manifesting themselves. I realize there are spells to choose from and that is my point, if he can choose he must be able to choose from something. How does he get say magic missile if hes never seen or heard of it, theoretically he wouldnt even know it existed. I am not forcing him to carry a spellbook or anything but he needs a way to acquire spells and could look over a spellbook just to get the spell.
No, sorcerers and summoners get a set number of spells they know. If you have five spells known and find a spellbook, you cannot in any way augment those five spells you already know. Sorcerer spells as you put it "just manifest from nothing" as the magic is innate rather than learned. This is the basic functionality of the class feature.
You may want to re-read the sorcerer description to understand the fundamental difference between a spontaneous caster and a prepared caster. In essence, spontaneous casters do exactly what you think they don't do. If you want a way to think about how it works in fluff terms, imagine somebody who has the capability of manifesting fire. One day they simply "discover" that innate talent. If they find a spellbook with the spell in it, it will be entirely incomprehensible because rather than understanding the "scientific" method of producing the fireball, they simply know that they can. That's what the class is all about.
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AncientDM, this is the section for the Pathfinder Society Organized Play program. Rules questions are another section of the boards.
But to try to answer your questions"
Shadows can crit, but cannot be critted (incorporeal cannot be). They no longer are susceptible to miss chance, but take half damage from corporeal (non-force) sources.
Revelations vary in number of uses per day, as in the specific write-ups in the APG.
Sorcerors and Summoners, as written, can access any spell on the list for their class.
EDIT: Ninja'ed and duplicated :)
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These questions really belong up in the rules section (so I flagged for a forum change) but I'll take my shot at answering.
1. can shadows crit? and do they still get 50% miss chance for being incorporeal. Could not find reference for either in any books so I took it as no for now. Please correct me if I am wrong.Yes they can crit. All creatures have a minimum 20/x2 crit modifier. So you can have double the strength drain. Incorporeal creatures no longer take a 50% miss chance, they simply take 50% damage from all weapons. You do need a magic weapon though to do damage.
2. Revelations (Oracle) how many times per day can they be cast. They seem to be in addition to normal spells so they dont take up a slot, just need to know how many times these can be cast.Unless the revelations state a specific number of uses per day, they can be used at any time. For example, the Combat Healer revelation can be used once per day at 7th and one additional time for every four levels path 7th. Conversely the Skill At Arms revelation simply makes you proficient in heavy armor.
3. Sorceror/Sumnoner....When learning new spells can they learn them from scrolls and spellbooks...had a discussion last game session on this and my player seemed to think his spells just manifested themselves without having to learn them from anything. My argument is that without either seeing a spell done or looking over some description or document then he has no choice over what spells manifest. They would be totally random if they just relied on manifesting themselves. I realize there are spells to choose from and that is my point, if he can choose he must be able to choose from something. How does he get say magic missile if hes never seen or heard of it, theoretically he wouldnt even know it existed. I am not forcing him to carry a spellbook or anything but he needs a way to acquire spells and could look over a spellbook just to get the spell.No, sorcerers and...
First thank your for your reply and I will have future questions put into the proper forum. About the Sorcerer stuff..If as you say one day his fire ability just manifests itself then that in itself says he had no control over what was about to happen and did not choose that ability/spell. Using that logic then all future spells etc would just manifest themselves without choice and therefore should be randomly applied using his/her spell availability list. I understand sorcerers have a limited list but if one of their spells were found say on a scroll or another wizard was throwing a spell the sorcerer might have it on his list then it would seem feasible that they could learn that from continual viewing or from studying the wizards method and refining it to there own. Its not that I have a problem with manifesting spells its just that ///if they havent seen or read or heard of the spell how would they know whats available to them to even be able to manifest it./// When the player started he had been tutored by another sorceror on how to manifest his ability. I gave him his first choice of the spells available as his initial mundane manifestation which through the mentoring of his tutor he learned how to actually manifest and control that spell. But now that they are adventuring his tutor is no longer available. So the logic behind manifesting something you dont know or havent been taught how to augment doesnt seem to fit well into the whole manifest thing. I CAN just let him choose his spell and let it manifest but it just doesn't seem right somehow. Hope I was able to clarify my viewpoint and will most likely just let him choose. As I have stated there is alot of getting used to the changes in Pathfinder but am enjoying it immensely all the same
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First thank your for your reply and I will have future questions put into the proper forum. About the Sorcerer stuff..If as you say one day his fire ability just manifests itself then that in itself says he had no control over what was about to happen and did not choose that ability/spell. Using that logic then all future spells etc would just manifest themselves without choice and therefore should be randomly applied using his/her spell availability list. I understand sorcerers have a limited list but if one of their spells were found say on a scroll or another wizard was throwing a spell the sorcerer might have it on his list then it would seem feasible that they could learn that from continual viewing or from studying the wizards method and refining it to there own. Its not that I have a problem with manifesting spells its just that ///if they havent seen or read or heard of the spell how would they know whats available to them to even be able to manifest it./// When the player started he had been tutored by another sorceror on how to manifest his ability. I gave him his first choice of the spells available as his initial mundane manifestation which through the mentoring of his tutor he learned how to actually manifest and control that spell. But now that they are adventuring his tutor is no longer available. So the logic behind manifesting something you dont know or havent been taught how to augment doesnt seem to fit well into the whole manifest thing. I CAN just let him choose his spell and let it manifest but it just doesn't seem right somehow. Hope I was able to clarify my viewpoint and will most likely just let him choose. As I have stated there is alot of getting used to the changes in Pathfinder but am enjoying it immensely all the sameI think you are comparing apples to oranges a bit here.
Sorcerers have magical ability in their blood, they are not trained. They are not casting spells from arcane writings learned over years of study as wizards do. Wizards have no...
yup it is kinda like apples and oranges but let say as example "i am a sorcerer that has this neat ability to do magic and I can make fire and after some trial and error I can do pretty much the same thing those fussy old goats at the school can do. Now I want to do more but what more? I dont even know how I started doing the fire thing, it just sorta happened, It would be nice to do some of the other things the stuffy mages do but what. i cant learn from a book, I cant learn from watching I have to rely on it just happening." now from a role playing aspect that is essentially the quintessential sorcerer, no from a rules point of view I suppose I would just think of some other magical effect and it would manifest and I would learn to control it and then it is mine to use forever. Unfortunately if that is the case then why limit my spell choices, and if not then how would I know what my limitations are? See its like the rules dont fit well with the characterization and all my players are heavy into role playing. I certainly dont want to randomize spells although they would enjoy being creative, I actually want them to have a way to get what they want from there list that better fits the role playing aspect. I just want everyone to have fun with the characterization they have come up with.
For the sorcerer, think of it this way, anything on his spell list (which is all arcane magic really) is something in his blood that he may innately know how to do and he just doesn't know what they are yet. Now the sorcerer can learn new spells by simply thinking to himself "you know if I could do (insert spell effect here) that would be really awesome and useful." so he conjures up his innate magical power and wills it into being (if he is strong enough), this is represented by the player picking the spell with the desired effect.
There's no learning, it is just "how do I want to bend the cosmos today" and poof it happens.
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Perhaps if your players don't mind (strong roleplayers as they may be :D) ... and also keep it within realms of some comprehension.
You could customize the a sorcerous spell-list for him (thematically chosen) that reflect the bloodline or perhaps complement the bloodline (aspects).
Every time the sorcerer levels, he/she may choose spells from the customized list. So that the list remains the "potential growth" of arcane magic (through bloodline) as the character grows more powerful and it doesn't seem so so randomly scattered.
Maybe there's a patron of sorts he has to seek out (bloodline related) to teach him spells (from the full list) but for a bargain / favour which is a great way of giving personal quests that spans over 1 - 2 levels :D
Perhaps, randomly roll new spells from a smaller customized list that the GM and the Player have already built in advanced?
It includes the spells that the sorcerer potentially wants (GM approved) but cannot precisely control how it evolves as he levels. ....
... or something. Hope this helps :D
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3. Sorceror/Sumnoner....When learning new spells can they learn them from scrolls and spellbooks...had a discussion last game session on this and my player seemed to think his spells just manifested themselves without having to learn them from anything. My argument is that without either seeing a spell done or looking over some description or document then he has no choice over what spells manifest. They would be totally random if they just relied on manifesting themselves. I realize there are spells to choose from and that is my point, if he can choose he must be able to choose from something. How does he get say magic missile if hes never seen or heard of it, theoretically he wouldnt even know it existed. I am not forcing him to carry a spellbook or anything but he needs a way to acquire spells and could look over a spellbook just to get the spell.
From a character development/roleplay standpoint, I understand where you're coming from. As others have said, the spontaneous casters like sorcerer do not have to have a source for their new spells in the way of a book or something.
Is it helpful to think of it that the character may or may not have control over what spells are learned, but the player does? Everything that is outside of the character's control doesn't need to be handled by a random mechanism or by the GM making the decision. The character might be surprised by the onset of new spell resources and there can be a lot of fun roleplay associated with that. But the player might well have it planned out for the career of the character from day one; on the other hand, the player might make the choices based upon the experiences that the PC has.
Ultimately, anything that is a character development choice, whether spells, feats, equipment, skills, etc. is under the control of the player and isn't random. How you might incorporate that into the game is up to you. If you're coming at this from an old school perspective, you might get information from your players about what their plans are and then imbed content into your game that helps explain it from an in-game perspective.
I'd liken it to either waking up one day and discovering that you've learned how to play the piano overnight, or to wanting to fly really hard and suddenly lifting off the ground. It's that sense of "I couldn't do this before, but now see what I can do!" Of course, if you wanted to be able to fly, and suddenly woke up and discovered you could play the piano, you might be a touch disappointed...
I think it'd be a reasonable setting-based rule to require sorcerers to have seen a type of magic performed, or to have needed it and not had it. But I'd also be pretty broad in what counts as having seen it - seeing any area fire spell would qualify you for all area fire spells from burning hands to meteor swarm. Maybe I'd make it "being affected by", but that could be too restrictive. Just be clear with your players that that is part of the setting you're creating and not the standard way to do it.
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For the sorcerer, think of it this way, anything on his spell list (which is all arcane magic really) is something in his blood that he may innately know how to do and he just doesn't know what they are yet. Now the sorcerer can learn new spells by simply thinking to himself "you know if I could do (insert spell effect here) that would be really awesome and useful." so he conjures up his innate magical power and wills it into being (if he is strong enough), this is represented by the player picking the spell with the desired effect.
There's no learning, it is just "how do I want to bend the cosmos today" and poof it happens.
This seems to make the most sense if not entirely what I was thinking as the sorcerer subset applies to a number of other spell casters the most recent being the summoner which is limited in spell selection. Perhaps i have just been over thinking the whole thing, for now I will use your rational and see how things go.
Thank You everyone for all your comments and suggestions it is nice to have a place to go for real helpful information.
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In my experience both playing sorcerer's (praise your deity for Paizo making sorcerer's interesting again) and having players in my group play them (no one loves the wizard but me apparently), as a player you choose your spells based on one of three things...
Theme
-You want your spells to fit a theme. Whether you're the cold casting water elemental sorcerer of doom (more commonly referred to as an Ice Mage) or the enchanting fey blooded elven sorcerer who charms her enemies into allies, your spells fit your bloodline theme tightly to maximize your roleplaying or combat potential.
Necessity
-You have just finished a battle and you're thinking to yourself "Resist Energy (Fire) would have been super useful in that last battle. I almost died. I'll be sure to take that next level.
Desire
-You know you've been casting abjuration spells your entire career, but you want to cast Enervation. It's an awesome spell and you love it. Nothing better than hitting people with negative levels.
These are player motivations to choose the spells they want. All are extremely justified and all of them are able to be tied into a storyline reason, as I'm about to outline below...
Theme
-Your player wants his red dragon blooded sorcerer to take scorching ray. This fits perfectly with his bloodlines penchant for fire. His magical blood easily manifests this spell once he is powerful enough to cast it. To the character, he's learned a new way to manipulate the fire magic in his veins.
Necessity
-Your player wants his sorcerer to take displacement. He was attacked entirely too easily last combat and needs something better than armor class to defend himself. This fits with any innate magic in his blood because magic doesn't always manifest randomly. Sometimes a sorcerer's need to be better defended manifests in new abilities that he may or may not have seen. One day he just KNOWS how to displace himself in reality for a few seconds per day.
Desire
-This one fits with what you've been going with on the 'Seen it cast, can cast now" thing. Your player has seen the archwizard cast a low level spell (just within his grasp next level). He is enamored by the pure power of the magic in play. When he gains more power, his sheer willpower forces his innate magic to mimic the spell, although not in the same manner the wizard used to make it.
I hope these in game and out of game examples help you and your group to better fit the roleplaying aspect of your game!
Incorporeal creatures no longer take a 50% miss chance, they simply take 50% damage from all weapons. You do need a magic weapon though to do damage.
Really, where does it say that? Someone better tell the guys at the Pathfinder SRD website which I always thought was the best place for a quick rule clarification.
FDM
Incorporeal creatures no longer take a 50% miss chance, they simply take 50% damage from all weapons. You do need a magic weapon though to do damage.Really, where does it say that? Someone better tell the guys at the Pathfinder SRD website which I always thought was the best place for a quick rule clarification.
FDM
PRD - Universal Monster Rules[/url]]Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
@OP: The short answer is, "Yes, a sorcerer can simply pick any spell he or she wishes to have when a new spell is gained by increasing in level."
That having been said, there's nothing wrong with insisting on a little role playing to explain exactly how the sorcerer developed the ability to cast a particular spell. I just wouldn't make it too difficult to accomplish. I'd also permit a "sudden burst of insight" in certain situations to accomplish the same thing.
And welcome to the forums, one ancient DM to another.
For the sorcerer, think of it this way, anything on his spell list (which is all arcane magic really) is something in his blood that he may innately know how to do and he just doesn't know what they are yet. Now the sorcerer can learn new spells by simply thinking to himself "you know if I could do (insert spell effect here) that would be really awesome and useful." so he conjures up his innate magical power and wills it into being (if he is strong enough), this is represented by the player picking the spell with the desired effect.
There's no learning, it is just "how do I want to bend the cosmos today" and poof it happens.
This seems to make the most sense if not entirely what I was thinking as the sorcerer subset applies to a number of other spell casters the most recent being the summoner which is limited in spell selection. Perhaps i have just been over thinking the whole thing, for now I will use your rational and see how things go.
Thank You everyone for all your comments and suggestions it is nice to have a place to go for real helpful information.
You seem to be forgetting the bards.
Bards and summoners are just specialized sorcerers, they don't have full power over the fabric of reality because they manifested their power in other ways (summoning an outsider, magical song, etc.) and used whats left as regular arcana.
