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It is unjust to favorize spellcasters, let's see what can be done so that a fighter, or a similar straightforward melee character can do to make spellcasters fear him. I say:
Disruptive, Spellbraker, Lunge, Step Up, Combat Patrol, Dazing Assault, Following Step, Step up and strike,
The step up, following step and step up and strike are a horrid combination...focing your opponents to withdraw.
And disruptive and spellbreaker are also excellent against adjacent spellcasters...try to cast that spell now...
To this list I would add the Archer archetype's "trick-shot". Firing to from range to disarm (or to just outright break/destroy) a wand at range from a caster's hand is a pretty bold statement that even a relatively low level fighter can manage.
As with all things sundering, doing it against your players is one of those things you have to do only sparingly, or the players may become very angry. A destroyed wand -- unlike a sword -- is not capable of being repaired to a charged & working state with Mending, Make Whole or by any means of crafting. Absent a Wish or Miracle, it's gone permanently.
It's also quite easy to do with Trick Shot and Deadly Aim, as it happens. Wands are pretty fragile. 10 hit points from one arrow on a successful trick-shot sunder attempt will destroy it, no save.
maximizing fighter will save-6 base, 5 resistance, 2 iron will, 2 morale, 1 trait, at most 2 racial
So a fighter who is making major efforts to boost his will save has a bonus of 18+wisdom mod. Even assuming a 16 starting stat(and a +6 wis item), he only has +24.
A caster can get up to a 36 casting stat, get focus/greater focus, and apply persistent spell to his will save spells.
Try making a dc 32 to 34 save 2x in a row before we factor in attempts at lowering your saves.
But why not look at something more likely to be in an average game? The caster probably doesn't have a 32 to the DCs for his spells. It's probably much lower. The game assumes that DC 24 is the high end of saves.
4: Cool. Fighter has a bow. And a sling. And javelins. And the aforementioned tanglefoot bags, etc. Targeted dispel means the wizard just ate a full attack.
5: So the wizard's ended his turn to give the fighter a full round attack at 2-3 range increments with a bow? Genius.
Frankly, there are too too many spells and items that shut down bows regardless of fighter level for that to ever be a very durable strategy. It can work in ideal conditions but the list of things that beat it is enormous.
I grant you, the bow fighter has a better chance of getting off a full attack than almost any other fighter, which have a roughly zero chance. But even something as simple as level 1 Obscuring Mist + I'm not going to make it easy for you to guess my square is a real ranged fighter hurdle, and more levels just make that worse.
But why not look at something more likely to be in an average game? The caster probably doesn't have a 32 to the DCs for his spells. It's probably much lower. The game assumes that DC 24 is the high end of saves.
Respectfully, I don't think your idea of an average game lines up that well with the median game.
DCs are starting to hit 24 (not in all cases, but...) in one game I'm playing in; we're level 8.
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I made a NPC Socerer using the elite aray. And at level 8 got there hold person DC up to 20.
Cha 19 + enchantment 2 = 21 Cha Mod +5
Greater Spell focus +2
Hold Person (level 3 Arcane spell) +3
Now for the fighter level 8
Base Will Save +2 Wis bonus +0(your not puting points in unless your rolling lets face facts.) Ironwill +2 ( I don't know any fighter that takes it but sure you can have it.)Cloak of Resistance +2 = +6
That means your still at 70% failed save. Now if it was a heroic NPC or a PC it wold be 75% or 80% failed save.
Now lets look at a caped NPC using the elite aray.
Cha 22 + enchantment bonus 6 + inharent bonus 4 = 32 cha Mod + 11
Greater Spell Focus Enchantment +2
Highted Mass Hold Person (Cast at 9th level) Save DC 32
25 point buy.
I like 17 14 14 12 10 10. 16 14 14 13 12 10 are also well rounded.
In any case, a wizard will have a 19 in int, 20 by 4th level.
A fighter will have 19 in str, 14 in con, and a 14 in wisdom.
The fighter takes iron will and improved iron will. Since we are looking for a mage slayer, a half elf is best. Use the Dual Minded alternate racial trait in place of Adaptability for an additional +2 on all will saves.
At first level, that fighter has base saves of +2/+0/+4 (+6 vs enchantment). A 14 in wisdom means that fighter has a +6(+8) for his will saves.
A wizard will have a 19 intelligence. At first level that means that his DCs are 15 for a first level spell. The fighter has to roll a 9 to make a save, better than a 50% chance. If the spell is enchantment then the roll only needs to be a 7, giving him a 70% chance to succeed.
Add nine levels. That fighter has a base will of +7(+9), probably has at least a +3 cloak of resistance and an item that improves wisdom...since he is stacking for his mage killing. Let us say a +2 item for now. That makes his save +13(+15).
Wizard has 5th level spells. Int is sitting at 25 (21 nat, +4 item). Base save DC is 17; 5th level spells are DC 23. Fighter has to roll a 10 or better to succeed. Against enchantments, he has to roll an 8 or better (65% chance to succeed).
So far, it is roughly 50/50 with a better chance to beat enchantment, which is one of the fighter's trouble schools.
Now, lets say the fighter isn't a half elf with the alternate racial ability. Increase the needed rolls by 2 and those against enchantment by 4. Now the fighter is worse than 50/50. If the wizard is a focused caster with spell focus and greater spell focus, the odds get worse.
A human fighter with the same gear at tenth level his save is +11. An enchanter with the same gear has a save dc of 23 (25 vs enchantment). Now the fighter has to roll a 12 to save, 14 to save versus enchantment. That is only a 35% chance to succeed.
Finally, what of those spells that require no save. Enervation is a 4th level spell. Maximizing it take either a rod or a 7th level spell. If I can cast 7th level spells I can also cast reverse gravity, which also allows no save. A Quickened Wind Wall shuts down an archer, Quickened Displacement is always a good choice too, as well as Mirror Image. A quickened dispel magic gets rid of the fighter's potion of save me and allows a follow up spell.
Wizards don't need gear to be dangerous.
Edit: ninja'd by other DC breakdowns.
There is a reason 15 point buy is standard. Higher point buys brake the game. I'm the main reason my group uses 15 point buy now.
And yet, 20 INT wizard at level 1 is very doable in 15 point buy.
I think the game probably does balance better with more reigned-in stats, but that's not the set of rules we currently have.
There is a reason 15 point buy is standard. Higher point buys brake the game. I'm the main reason my group uses 15 point buy now.
I find this amusing since under Generating Ability Scores in the core book it lists the standard as rolling 4d6 and dropping the lowest.
16 13 13 10 10 9 is a 15 point buy and the problem is still the EXACT SAME. Wizard still has an 18 in Int, fighter can still have a 14 in wisdom.
A wizard only needs a single stat to make life easy. On a 10 point buy I can have an elvish wizard with 7 14 10 18 12 8 after adjustments. No harm done there. I don't need strength or charisma.
You can try to blame stats, it won't make a difference. Everyone having an 18 in all stats is the same as everyone haveing a 12 in all stats since the ability modifiers are never multiplied. Stats are irrelevent. Hell, take them away. A first level spell has a DC 11 to succeed. A fighter has to roll an 11 at first level to succeed. At 17th level, a fighter rolls a d20+5 versus a DC 19 for a 9th level spell, still has to roll a 14. Feats and magic items then favor the fighter greatly unless a wizard has access to items that boost save DCs since the only way to do that is with feats or increasing a spell casting stat.
A fighter with a 12 wisdom and Iron Will at first level has a +3 to his will saves. A wizard with a 14 in intelligence has a DC 13 first level charm person/sleep. Still a 50/50 chance of failing.
But why not look at something more likely to be in an average game? The caster probably doesn't have a 32 to the DCs for his spells. It's probably much lower. The game assumes that DC 24 is the high end of saves.Respectfully, I don't think your idea of an average game lines up that well with the median game.
DCs are starting to hit 24 (not in all cases, but...) in one game I'm playing in; we're level 8.
That's fine for your games but it isn't the basic assumption from the designers. I tend to see higher DCs when I play casters too. It still doesn't mean that it's one of the underlying assumptions of the system.
I don't necessarily think that we have to restrict the conversation to DC 24 at level 20, but I also think that a 50% increase in expectations is a bit over the top for these discussions.
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No amount of Saves protected you from Magic Missile where you got no save...
Villiam the Bloody, naked and soaked in the bodily juices of his last victim emerges from the dark in pursuit of the Iron Spike that burned through your fighter's platemail armour thanks to the Magic Missile Variant he cast on it.
Bouncing in his hands are two more iron spikes that look like they have been used repeatedly to inflict a hellish amount of pain.
Your Guide through these sewers Screams the villain's name and flees in the opposite direction...leaving you at the mercy of a serial killer who knows no fear and is intent on wearing your face for footwear.
There is a reason 15 point buy is standard. Higher point buys brake the game. I'm the main reason my group uses 15 point buy now.And yet, 20 INT wizard at level 1 is very doable in 15 point buy.
I think the game probably does balance better with more reigned-in stats, but that's not the set of rules we currently have.
And it's still a horrible character build. Anyone who dumps 2-3 stats just to get that magical 20 at level 1 is not really playing a character anymore. They are no longer concerned with playing a role playing game. They are out to win the game. Have you noticed that those who have no problems dumping stats say that "-2 isn't a big deal" but they would never play a wizard with a +3 Intelligence modifier (which is only a -2 from where they want to start)? Just an observation.
That being said, it is still pretty easy to get the DCs up to respectable levels very easily. I won't deny that.
25 point buy.
The game is built assuming 15 point buy. Several people have done some math and determined that 4d6 drop the lowest is equivalent to 20 point buy. 25 point buy is listed as Epic Fantasy. 15 is Standard Fantasy. I think we should at a minimum go with PFS point buy (High Fantasy). I generally build characters for comparison with the elite array because it is fast and makes for a rounded character.
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If you want to really compare threat values when was the last time you've faced a NPC high level solo fighter that has been able to seriously challenge the PCs without some epic level mcguffin. When was the last time a high level solo caster gave your party trouble?
I venture that for almost everyone here solo casters represent a bigger challenge to the party than solo martials.
Honestly?
ANY solo character has a hard time challenging my party.But a martial or caster character with proper minions, lair, and strategic advantage rains down hell upon the PC's. A rogue who drinks a potion of invisibility and a potion of silence when he hears the PC's coming, for example, can hide in a 10x10 room that locks the PC's in via a trapping mechanism. This is only not a problem for very high-level games, and even then it usually messes up a party pretty badly.
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4D6 drop the lowest is the same thing as a 17 point buy. The problem with rolled stats is they very greatly from person to person. I gave my group the option of rolling or point buy. They take point buy most of the time. Mainly becous none of them want to be the person stuck with there highest stat is a 13. This can and dose hapen with rolled stats. Stats greatly affect the mechanics of the game. I can see a fighter starting with a Wis of 12 but not much more and probly not even that unless our rolling stats. Thats why point buys work better for showing what is the most common. Yes you could get lucky on dice rolls and have great stats, but you could roll realy bad and have realy bad stats. Even better then that compare characters using the NPC elite stats set. That why they use the same stat set.
Wizard Elf Elite
Str 8 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 17 Wis 13 Cha 10
Fighter Human Elite
Str 17 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 13 Cha 8
With out feats of any kind the Fighter hase a 70% will failer.
With spell Focus 75% failer.
With Iron Will 60% failer.
With Spell Focus and Iron Will 65% failer.
The realy question is how meny fighters take iron will ever? I have yet to see one do it. At higher level its easy to get Save bonus. The amount of save incresses is almost as great as the DC incresses. The DC will incresses pased what you can shore up a weak save. There are exceptions to the rule. Not meny but a few. Thats why the caster is going after your ref and will save. He knows there is no way your failing your fort save. With the exception of you rolling a 1.
It is the set of rules we have. People chose to go with realy high point buy and wonder why the game is not working very well. Or why for instance you have a Oracle that can do almost the same melee damage as a fighter, have the socal skills of a bard and still do traps (not magic traps.) as a rogue. Is this build posible yes, and it's not hard on a high point buy. The only thing that brings thes kind of builds in is a lower point buy. For any MAD build high point buy (or good rolls.) realy puts them over the top in power.
That's fine for your games but it isn't the basic assumption from the designers. I tend to see higher DCs when I play casters too. It still doesn't mean that it's one of the underlying assumptions of the system.
I don't actually think that's the case, even if I agree the game balances better with more moderate stats.
Before writing the Pathfinder core book, Jason Bulmahn spent years administrating Living Greyhawk and GMing tables of it, including many with casters with very cranked out casting stats. I can't believe after years of seeing that in a point buy system, most people will crank out a full caster's casting stat (well, wizard/druid/sorcerer -- that was still the clericzilla era and that class still benefited from slightly more balanced stats in some ways), he would somehow forget that when designing the game.
I'll even give you that some of the design decisions make more sense with that assumption, but...
A 15 PB elf wizard can be 8 14 10 19 10 10. Not stretched, but still with a 19 at level 1.
With tomes, advancements and enhancements, it's easy reach a 34 by level 20. Some trasmuter wizard can even ENHANCE HIS OWN STATS if needed.
A persistent 22 + spell level DC is DIRE. How many immunities are there to Flesh to Stone? Assuming a starting int of 17 and less items, a 20 + spell level persistent is nevertheless hard to beat.
See, IMHO the thing is complicated for a number of reason
1)sitations can vary a lot, and how the wizard and the fihgter live and interact out of combat means a lot. An isolated paranoid wizard is different from a wizard living within a court, maybe more vulnerable to intrigue if well planned.
2) a mundane fighter can be a TH axe wielder or a crossbow sniper. Approach and item retrieved to kill the wizard would be very different
3) Protective rings and ioun stones could help, but are a non cheap resource
4) animate dead, planar binding, summons, simulacrum are class features. Wizards have built-in allies. This is not valid for mundanes like Paladin and Ranger.
5) Nevertheless, is difficult for me imagine a 1v1 duel at high level. If two 20 level PCs fight, probably all the allies and foes of these potent being will join (so will be party 1 + dwarf clan + dragons of the blue mountain VS party 2 + vampire lord + drow clan, say).
6) we are anyway talking about chances. Chances are the fighter or the wizard comes in contact with a cd 13 drow knockout poison for whatever reason and rolls "1" ;)
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Wizard Elf Elite
Str 8 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 17 Wis 13 Cha 10
Fighter Human Elite
Str 17 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 13 Cha 8
With out feats of any kind the Fighter has a 70% will failure.
With spell Focus 75% failure.
With Iron Will 60% failure.
With Spell Focus and Iron Will 65% failure.
That's only at level 1. His chances actually go down as he levels up and gets cool stuff that boosts saves. There's a lot more stuff in this game that boosts saves than there is to boost DC's.
And if you're talking about 20th level saves, there's no reason to brag unless it's above 30. 30+ DC's are actually difficult for 20th-level characters to make. Less than that, and they're pretty likely to succeed.
My big issue is persistent spell. It makes save DCs apparently low.
Agree on level 1. At level 1, fighter is even more dangerous for wizard (see the range of a bow :P)
EDIT ON A POST OF MINE, ABOVE: in 4) i meant rogue or fighter: rangers and paladins (and cavaliers) have a build-in ally.
The math for better or worse was predicated on elite array, no caster stat racial adjustment and standard buff tank/heal bot clerics and blaster/utility wizards.
3.5 Elite Array Casters-
If casters are at 15 casting stat at 1st level then we are talking about DC 13 (14 in a spell focus area). That means standard CR 1 opposition with a poor save of +1 is making the save 40%-45% of the time.
Many PCs will have 1 save of +1 for their worst save (will or reflex most common). That means that against standard elite array casters they are eating the spell effect 55%-60% of the time.
3.5 Normal Optimization Casters-
Assuming a 16 as the caster stat (scores of 17+ are expensive and require dump stats) and spell focus we are talking about a DC of 15 for spell focus spells.
That means 35%-40% saves from CR 1 creatures and level 1 PCs.
3.5 Ultra-Op Casters/ Pathfinder Standard Casters-
Assume an 18 in a caster stat (16 base +2 racial) and spell focus and we are at DC 16.
30%-35%
PF CharOp Caster
20 Caster stat + spell focus bring it up to DC 17.
25%-30%
There are of course some trait bonuses that can raise DC +1 as well.
I don't 100% agree with the caster edition claim that some posters throw at Pathfinder but I do acknowledge that +2 Caster stat Racial bonuses plus higher HPs can make for pretty high end SoL casters.
For the most part I actively discourage people from exceeding the 17-18 caster threshold with their casters. Especially if they are going to be SoL specialists. Simply put, a SoL caster puts a bunch of design pressure on me as a GM in order to custom-make encounters that challenge the SoL caster while not overpowering the other characters.
I don't 100% agree with the caster edition claim that some posters throw at Pathfinder but I do acknowledge that +2 Caster stat Racial bonuses plus higher HPs can make for pretty high end SoL casters.For the most part I actively discourage people from exceeding the 17-18 caster threshold with their casters. Especially if they are going to be SoL specialists. Simply put, a SoL caster puts a bunch of design pressure on me as a GM in order to custom-make encounters that challenge the SoL caster while not overpowering the other characters.
I agree. I warn my casters to play nice with the GM. If they use those great spells against opponents, cool. If they ONLY use those spells against their opponents, then eventually things that they come across will have similar ideas...probably taken from the party.
I call it our gentlemen's agreement.
That's only at level 1. His chances actually go down as he levels up and gets cool stuff that boosts saves. There's a lot more stuff in this game that boosts saves than there is to boost DC's.
Well, yes and no. More stuff, sure. More stuff that stacks with each other that you can realistically get on one character that's good at anything else besides making that particular kind of save, no, not really.
I don't 100% agree with the caster edition claim that some posters throw at Pathfinder but I do acknowledge that +2 Caster stat Racial bonuses plus higher HPs can make for pretty high end SoL casters.For the most part I actively discourage people from exceeding the 17-18 caster threshold with their casters. Especially if they are going to be SoL specialists. Simply put, a SoL caster puts a bunch of design pressure on me as a GM in order to custom-make encounters that challenge the SoL caster while not overpowering the other characters.
I agree. I warn my casters to play nice with the GM. If they use those great spells against opponents, cool. If they ONLY use those spells against their opponents, then eventually things that they come across will have similar ideas...probably taken from the party.
I call it our gentlemen's agreement.
Aye, there does need to be a level of understanding of the setting. If a high-level wizard starts to be a pain in a campaign a pack of ghouls will defeat them in a few days.
1v1 comparisons in a team-based strategy game are inherently ridiculous.
Yep.
But, then you keep going with that kind of argument, so let's address that still.
More so when you're set on just assuming you have a character that has infinite time and resources to prep.
Unless you specify "low levels only" or some kind of metaphorical steel cage match, one kind of character either can have a fight that's very much to their liking, or they can instantly be thousands of miles away. Rinse and repeat until things do come out to their liking.
Given that, assuming, not infinite resources, but certainly a fairly ideal use of their existing resources, not only isn't a stretch, not assuming it is unrealistic.
Level is also a huge factor.
Low level fighter meets and wants to kill wizard.
Initiative goes to fighter. Charge+attack(with Power Attack). Hit. 1d8+5 damage (average 9 damage). Wizard has 8 HP and is beaten.
Initiative goes to Wizard. Casts Sleep (DC 14). Fighter fails, wizard wins. Fighter succeeds, see above.
Increasing the level is still very similar, with an exception. That fighter is getting one chance to either kill or lock down the wizard before the wizard leaves. Both teleport and dimension door are verbal components and are easy to get through a grapple. Concentration is 1d20+CL+ability modifier. 1d20+19 is a fair shot against target 10+cmb+spell level) *a 10th level fighter with a +5 str mod and improved grapple and greater grapple has a base of 29. Fifty fifty shot. (given that the wizard and fighter only have a +5 bonus to int/str)
Of course, by 11th level, contingency negates grappling.
Really high level of play means the fighter type will always lose. Greater Rod of Extend costs 24500gp(12250 if created by caster) and a Greater Rod of Maximize costs 121500gp(65250gp) and are both well worth the cost.
Extended Foresight lasts 20min/level. With items, the CL can get high, but even at CL 20 that spell lasts for 400 minutes, that is over 6.5 hours of not being able to be surprised or flat footed.
PLUS
Extended Moment of Prescience grants an insight bonus equal to caster level on an attack, CM check, ability or skill check, saving throw, or AC against one attack. That means that even if the fighter wins initiative, his attacks/CMs will likly miss. On the wizard's turn, that maximized Time Stop means a world of hurt for the fighter.
Adding gear for the fighter makes him dangerous. Adding gear to the wizard makes the wizard crazy stupid good.
Edit: Running away from a fight that can't be won at the moment is NEVER a bad idea. Making a wizard run away is a temporary victory.
No, it doesn't. Because the spell doesn't do damage directly. Whoopsy.And control wind? Against a fighter? The spell that allows a fort save every round to negate? And doesn't actually do damage until you're far higher level? And even AFTER the failed fort save allows a strength check to negate? Be serious.
it does nonlethal damage every round you fail a save for 10min/lvl. And in a hurricane you can expect the fighter will not be doing any flying at a -12 against winds blowing him straight down. A druid gets it at 9th lvl and just with traits I can increase my caster lvl by 2 if I want. So if I use death knell or an item to raise it 1. Voila hurricanes. not too difficult.
That's also a druid spell. So we've left the wizard behind now? What shall you did without that 8th level mind blank?
yeah I kept reading you and others say spellcasters in general. So I used an example of another type of caster who also woops a fighters ass consistently and druids have the benefit of not being as squishy as wizards which is another bonus.
Druids+natural spell=cute fuzzy animal of doom and destruction. I lothe natural spell, but havn't had players abuse it enough for me to ban it in my games.
Running away remains a poor solution,
Well, no. Situationally it can be, sure.
But if you're one of the prepared casters, your whole schtick is that you get to pick what amount to most of your important class features fresh each morning. That's kind of how you run the table on the people who can't, if you're smart.
You run away, until the day you don't need to, and then the other guy is dead.
and you're again assuming at least a mid-level character (no less absurd than my assuming a low-level or high level fight)
Eh, I'm happy to make a low level case -- I'm someone who thinks the melee classes and caster classes equal out in power around level 3 or 4, given better players for both of them -- but if you're not persuaded that a guy who can be on a different continent instantly in response to any attack which doesn't kill him outright has a ridiculous tactical advantage, what's the point?
, and again exaggerating the potential of the effect by an order of 10.
Feel free to make an actual argument for why you think that's the case, if you'd like.
Sure, they're within range of a bow, but I can grease that sucker easily.
RAW, I don't see any reason why you couldn't use a bow in tandem with a locked gauntlet. Granted, RAW it also wouldn't stop you from greasing the weapon, but I think most GMs would rule that it would.
Of course, that locks (no pun intended) the fighter into a particular set of tactics, which has its own risks.
Still, I agree in essence with the general point you're making (or what I take to be the general point you're making), which is: few characters have three great saves, and there's always a good option to hammer on you with the one that isn't.
Also not mentioned yet in this exchange and probably relevant: lantern archons target touch AC. Most AC-heavy fighters aren't rocking that much of it. Granted, I don't know that lantern archons would be my choice of tactics in that situation, but depending on specifics they could be.
I just put my players through an arena style fight in CoT adventure path. The paladin of the party faced off against the summoned creatures of an enemy Summoner. Book said conjurer that summoned Lemures, but that would have been no challenge whatsoever to the Paladin. Instead I had the Summoner send out wave after wave of Lantern Archons. Not only did this have the effect of severely annoying the PC (not the player, he found it vastly amusing) but it was the only thing that regularly got past the paladins absurdly high AC (Mithral full plate, sword and board type).
Oh and the Pally made short work of them despite their DR 10/evil. And then slotted the Summoners Eidolon in about 2 rounds (smite evil vs evil outsider) and the Summoner himself who had wasted all his spells buffing his now banished champion.
*note: Stoneskin does diddley squat vs smite evil as it bypass' all DR.
I would argue that spellcasters do fear fighters. After all most of the defensive tactics of wizards are not for other spell casters but for use against 'death by steel'. The wizard moves because the fighter can hit and kill him, the wizard flies because the fighter can hit and kill him. The wizard uses something other than a (supposed) 'win' spell because the fighter can hit and kill him.
All of the tactics, maneuvering and spells that are used in defense is because of a rightful respect of the fact that the fighter can kill the wizard if he doesn't prepare accordingly.
Even with such preparation it is possible for the wizard to still lose.
So yes the spell caster does fear the fighter but instead of being ruled by the fear he proactively takes measures to avoid the thing that causes him fear.
Add Protection From Evil in there too. Otherwise = party crapping pants at dominated fighter.
Of course, if you've got a neutral/neutral caster who wants to dominate the fighter there's not much you can do about it.
I kind of hate the way Protection From X is written now.
"How to make enemy spellcasters fear fighters?"Run the 1st or 2nd edition versions of the game instead of 3.5/PFRPG?
Doesn't really hold up in 2nd.
It does a little better in 1st, at least at lower levels.
A fighter should also have a spare potion of see invisibility. Many casters rely on Imp Invisibility as their primary defensive buff. If you can reliably pierce that illusion it becomes much easier to target and slay any caster.
This item cannot exist. A potion cannot be made from a spell that has a personal only range. . .
A fighter should also have a spare potion of see invisibility. Many casters rely on Imp Invisibility as their primary defensive buff. If you can reliably pierce that illusion it becomes much easier to target and slay any caster.This item cannot exist. A potion cannot be made from a spell that has a personal only range. . .
Very correct -- however having a hand of glory isn't a bad idea. Daylight and see invisibility once per day each and the ability to have another ring can be very useful.
I like hand of glory. Definitely a good, relatively cheap trick for a mid-level character (melee or caster).
