Hi Forums!
So we're finishing up an AP in my current group which means it's time to make a new character (HUZZAH!)
I have *loved* the idea of the alchemist ever since I first read about it and I'm thinking of trying one out.
If any of you forum-lurkers are playing an Alchemist now I'd love to hear a bit about your characters, and:
(1) What works / doesn't work? Any words of wisdom for an aspiring mad-scientist?
(2) What role do you end up playing in the party?
(3) Do you feel that you meaningfully contribute to combat? If so, how? If not, why not?
(4) What are your favorite Alchemical items?
Hi Forums!
So we're finishing up an AP in my current group which means it's time to make a new character (HUZZAH!)
I have *loved* the idea of the alchemist ever since I first read about it and I'm thinking of trying one out.
If any of you forum-lurkers are playing an Alchemist now I'd love to hear a bit about your characters, and:
(1) What works / doesn't work? Any words of wisdom for an aspiring mad-scientist?
(2) What role do you end up playing in the party?
(3) Do you feel that you meaningfully contribute to combat? If so, how? If not, why not?
(4) What are your favorite Alchemical items?
My current Alchemist is Half-orc for the favored class bonus damage on his bombs. Now this character is only in a two person group and the other player is a fighter. So Im the healer, the ranged support, the second melee fighter and the arcane caster all in one. I use my mutagen and a falchion when more melee is needed, when We need some ranged I hurl bombs at everything. I use my extracts in a combo of healing, and buffing. The best part of their extracts is you can spend a minute to prepare them so there is no need to prep at the start of each day, you can build for what you need. The High int also helps you be a pseudo skill monkey. Lastly you get poison which allows for the save or suck stuff of casters to an extent.
Its an amazing class but I feel you need to suspend belief slightly more for it because you carry enough liquid and other materials for this class on you at all times. Also good strength helps with hauling around your cauldron lol.
To answer your questions, The class can be a little MAD depending on what all you want to do, In my game I got high stats because there are only two players so I can do everything.
I find the class can be built to fill most party roles, If they get an archetype with trapfinding they could even replace the rogue.
In combat with the right stats you have options, you can hurl bombs, but you have a limited number, Gnome alchemists can get more, also alchemist fire works for them aswell because they add their int to the damage. With medium bab and mutagen, you can go melee. the best part of the class is its versatility.
Poison is Very useful and with a feat you can make a ton of every day. Class abilities Extracts because of what I said above they are versitile.
A lot of good advice
Hi Kenji,
Thanks for your response!
It's definitely nice to get some feedback from people who have actually been playing Alchy's in game as opposed to just the theory crafting.
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I've been playing a gnome Alch/wiz. Currently I am wiz 1 /alch 3. I've found that most of my contributions come in the form of skill monkey and with a wand of CLW, as an inpromptu cleric since Alchemists get UMD. I've only played in PFS games and I can only remember 2 where the party had an actual cleric and didn't rely on me with a wand for all party healing.
I really enjoy it though, between color spray, grease and bomb splash damage, the only time I have a hard time figuring out what to do in combat is when there is only one bad guy left and he/she is surrounded by my party members, but I bought a light crossbow just for that occasion. I built him with a bomber type in mind so my feats were point blank shot and prescise shot which help tremendously.
I haven't done anything with posions or the mutugen abilities so I can't speak for them good or bad.
about a gnome
Hi Canor,
Thanks for posting!
Your character sounds really fun, and it's cool that you've gone with a race/class combination that isn't "optimal" (ie. your racial stat bonuses aren't the same as your classes core stat).
Gnome power!
Any more Alchemist players out there? I mean come on! Who ever heard of role-players that didn't want to gush about their characters....
Any more Alchemist players out there? I mean come on! Who ever heard of role-players that didn't want to gush about their characters....
Oh, very well! :) I just started a Gnome Alchemist in a RotR game. Start of the fourth book, so the character began at 9th level. Eight levels in Alchemist, one in Master Chymist. I dismissed the poison aspect, and while I toss bombs, the only bomb discovery I took was Explosive. I have a weapon, but I don't use it.
Character-wise, I have a happy-go-lucky gnome (NG) who stays back and tosses bombs and drinks potions and helps out. When things get hectic, "someone wants to play", and her alter-ego comes out, and he's a clawing, biting, "I'll fly after the dragon and bite 'em on the tail!" wacko (CN). He's much more snarky and dismissive and loves the up-close fighting, even against much larger creatures. (Okay, this character's life expectancy might not be all that great...:)
I really can't say what my role in the party will end up being or what really works for me yet, as I've only played this character once, but it's a great deal of fun. Drinking lots of elixirs and potions can take time during a fight, but I'm working on streamlining that if I can. And <i>Alchemical Allocation</i> is your friend (and your party's, if you pick up the "share elixirs" discovery).
A couple things I can't wait to do:
- Throw <i>Draconic Reservoir</i> onto a melee party member, then toss bombs on or next to him... ;)
- Put that spell on myself, then toss down a <i>Detonate</i>.
- Meet up with that dragon again! He totally brushed me off like I wasn't worth an inhalation to breath fire on me. Just 'cause I'm a little gnome doesn't mean I can't bite yer tail off, mister!
You should have no problem filling a niche, and less of a problem having fun. You're not going to be the big fighter or the blasting mage, but that's for those other folks. Alchemists like to have fun. But be careful--you'll need a dimensional space of some sort to keep all yer potions and alchemical items on you! :)
Good luck, and have fun! I'm excited about playing my Alchy. Two personalities is just too much fun. I'm planning on memorizing different formulas for each personality and not letting the "other one" use those set-asides! Hehehe.
There's always this guy! He makes candies out of mutagens, extracts, and bombs!
Later, when things get really bad, he'll 'lose it' and start biting(just like the gnome mentioned above!0.
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and it's cool that you've gone with a race/class combination that isn't "optimal" (ie. your racial stat bonuses aren't the same as your classes core stat).about a gnome
Here's another one. Dwarf Alchemist 2 in Serpents Skull AP.
I've been mostly using bombs in combats. With precise bomb I don't have to worry about friends in melee.
Although I do plan on mixing it up a bit. Shield extract and Dex mutagen gives you a +8 to AC! Time to wade into melee or hang back with a ranged weapon.
Next level I hope to use swift alchemy to craft some alchemical items for the group.
With that said, I'm having a blast.
Hector the Oread Alchemist reporting in! I run around with my 20 strength punching the heck out of things and drink my mutagen to become even more rock-like and strong. I have about 5 weapons for ANY occasion. Wood steaks, silver daggers, cold iron long spears.
Bombing isn't much my style unless I cant punch through their armor or need to use them for fire or smoke. My Extracts are only for me, no sharing cause no one else has an iron stomach like me.
I also know every monster to ever exist while having great reflexes. I fill what role I feel like and spend the majority of my gold on wine and other silly non adventuring things.
Ive been playing a dwarf Alchemist in Kingmaker and im the party tank/beatstick in a 3 man group. With just a few rounds of prep time I turn into a huge size warrior with magical defences and a huge Str bonus. Being profficent with battleaxes automaticly helps.
Im planning on taking the sticky poison discovery at level 6 and poisoning not only my weapons, but my partys too. Nothing make an axe to the face more fun that con poison on it!
Im also considering taking a level or 2 of barbarian. That would give me martial weapons, medium armor, and rage to make my tanking even more absurd.
Edit: He also uses his alchemical skill to experiment with new beers. This makes him very popular during downtime.
Natalya Dewbreath:
Human Barbarian 2/Alchemist 2
Drunken Brute/Invulnerable Rager
High Str, even higher when raging, even higher with mutagen, even higher with enlarge person (etc), with Lesser Fiend Totem rage power, and Feral Mutagen discovery (4 primary natural attacks :D)
Does absurd amounts of dmg in melee...
Also has Good for what ails ya rage power (via feat), and fortified drinker Trait... combined with drunken brute archetype she makes VERY good use of getting wasted :D
good times
I played the Iconic Alchemist in Master of the fallen fortress; I was a skill monkey with a little boom casting. (He wasn't designed very well, no synergy between his abilities).
I have advanced feats for alchemists and SGG's alchemists PDF.
I have an alchemist that has traded in extracts for Spagyric devices and i have organized inventory and weapon juggle feats.
Spagyric devices for those of you who don't know are like temporary devices that need to be renewed every day like spells or they fall apart.
I also have guns, so I bomb, shoot, use rockets really instead of bombs (an alternate discovery).
I have a targeting device I have on my eyes that runs cables down to my wrists to help my shoot better and get better range increments (+2 distance) and an auto loading holster that takes up my waste and legs (unseen servant combined with bag of holding)
with quick draw, weapon juggle, and organized inventory, I am never without what I need in my hands. I mostly use mutagens for dex enhancement.
(1) What works / doesn't work? Any words of wisdom for an aspiring mad-scientist?
Avoid poison. There is too much stuff thats immune, the cost is too high, and the DC is too low.
(2) What role do you end up playing in the party?
Blaster /Buffer. I blast. If someone wants their buff, they can spend their own action.
Toolbox: 1 potion of "cure X" (disease, poison, curse) and alchemical allocation means never having to spend your hard earned goal on more than one potion.
(3) Do you feel that you meaningfully contribute to combat? If so, how? If not, why not?
I give the paladin enlarge person, shield, and expeditious retreat. Even if my alchemist SLEEPS through the fight he's still contributing.
When he wakes up, he bombs things, freezes them solid and sets them on fire.
(4) What are your favorite Alchemical items?
Scent filled arrows that let your party pets track the baddies down after you let them get away so you can track them back to their lair
Wow, so many responses!
I have to say I'm pretty torn between making a sort of bomb focused Alchy and one with a little more melee oomph; but I guess that's just something I have to figure out.
Thank you all for contributing to the thread, this has definitely given me some good ideas and perspective on what to do with my alchemist.
Got a Level 6 Alky in Serpent Skull, due to a mix up in understanding the rules, I took Craft wondrous item at level 3, but we figured I shouldn't use it until I got the Master Craftsman feat at level 5. So far, he has made a Pearl of Power for the mage, Armor Spikes and a Quickdraw Shield for the Ranger, a Handy Haversack for himself, and a Belt of Con +2 for the Rogue. I also took a rank in craft (almost all of them) and should get the class bonus for crafting anything by the time I hit level 10, just for flavor.
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Niero Brandt, half-varisian, half-galtan scoundrel turned alchemist reporting in!
First, some history.
My erstwhile campaign of RotRL saw the death of this character while still on level 2. GM liked the character enough so once my cleric, the replacement char who eventually fought to the bitter end of the AP, resurrected Niero, he went on to be a character in the Serpent's Skull AP. I see there are many here playing the same campaign with alchemists in tow. Nice!
The reason I turned my rogue into an alchemist was two-fold. First of all, I was disappointed with how the character was turning out combat-wise and secondly, I wanted something more self-sufficient and flavourful to play.
So, got to start the campaign as a 1st lvl rogue, which we fluffed to be the residue of the raise dead spell. Negative levels and all that jazz. One level of rogue was actually kind of beneficial, since I wanted to deal with traps and be a skillmonkey and the extra class skills and ranks gained from the "dip" helped with that. Haven't yet faced magical traps, but I bet some will spring up. Runelords had them and they were nasty.
Anyhow, for the first two levels I mostly crafted stuff, since a decent Int score and the crafter's fortune spell made most simple checks, like crafting arrows for the gun-ho Weapon Master, potions for myself, and antiplagues and the like for everyone else, easy.
For these last two levels, since we are now 4th, I've gone through a lot of traps pretty decently. Managed some steepish skill checks in various topics too. And, to boot, marveled at how decent a to-hit score even a mediocre(15, 16 this level) starting Str can conjure once mutagens and the Heirloom falchion kick in. All in all, the class has been a new favorite for me, easily replacing the cleric in sheer versatility so far. Mutagens and the great spell selection coupled with two good saves makes it a sort of arcane inquisitor with a mischievous, chaotic bend and I love it.
Currently, the campaign limits what we can purchase, so I'm not getting a headband or a belt anytime soon. Similarly, there's an obvious time limit to the workings of our current scenario, which means I'm not crafting stuff like troll styptics yet. I can only imagine what an alchemist in a metropolis with a lot of funds and a lot of time could accomplish. Especially if he is martially minded like me.
Right then, some cheapish advice:
Avoid poisons, unless you have near limitless funds and time. The DC's are kind of crappy and the really good stuff takes weeks to craft. Not to mention finding toxins is hard since they are considered contraband in most cities. If only it were cheaper and there were some kind of rules to harvest it from monsters, things would be fine. I remember gathering poison from spiders in the Pathfinder Society scenario, Perils of the Pirate Pact, but it's all houserules from there on out.
Remember that you can beef up your AC pretty easily. Shield, chain shirt, some dex, a mutagen and 3 ranks in Acrobatics to get that extra dodge bonus to defensive fighting will make you nigh unhittable even at level 3. Sure it does taper off eventually, but for these first few levels I've tanked pretty effectively while other characters maneuver and buff. Of course, stacking Dex with a mutagen and fighting defensively means you can't hit anything and your completely abysmal Will safe shall suffer yet more. Nevertheless, against mooks and single-minded melee monsters this is a sound tactic.
I'd like to see an alchemist archetype that would get rid of some of the poisons abilities, since the only one I see as being useful is the immunity. Couple that with the poison bomb discovery and you can start fights by dropping a freaking cloudkill in front of you and just grin while faces melt.
One final thing, I kind of wish alchemists could make their natural attacks magical more easily. Right now they are in the same boat as monks in that there's a really nice magic item, the Amulet of Mighty Fists available, but it's not cheap and further enhancements cost even more. A druid ally or a friendly magic crafter will be your friend should you choose to go that way. Master Craftsman+Craft Woundrous Items is an option too. Me, I trust my Galtische messer blade until someone either steals it or it gets shattered.
Stay away from melee. As your level increases you get full attacks less and less, and while your full attacks you at +x/+x-5/+x-10 the monsters are going to be using +x/+x-2/+x-2/+x-2/+x-2 .
You can do some nasty, nasty burst damage with point blank shot, precise shot, and rapid shot.
One final thing, I kind of wish alchemists could make their natural attacks magical more easily. Right now they are in the same boat as monks in that there's a really nice magic item, the Amulet of Mighty Fists available, but it's not cheap and further enhancements cost even more. A druid ally or a friendly magic crafter will be your friend should you choose to go that way. Master Craftsman+Craft Woundrous Items is an option too. Me, I trust my Galtische messer blade until someone either steals it or it gets shattered.
I got around this one (and the poor full-attack option) by a combination of: potion of Magic Fang +1, Alchemical Allocation, and an Amulet of Mighty Fists (Acid). I think (could be wrong) it's better than iterative attacks. Three natural attacks, all at +1 Magic, with 1d6 acid. Toss on Thorn Body if you really want to pile on the d6s... :)
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Stay away from melee. As your level increases you get full attacks less and less, and while your full attacks you at +x/+x-5/+x-10 the monsters are going to be using +x/+x-2/+x-2/+x-2/+x-2 .
You can do some nasty, nasty burst damage with point blank shot, precise shot, and rapid shot.
Woah, no such thing as absolutes in this game. Check this out:
You can either use a two-handed weapon with a permanent haste potion for +x/+x/+x-5/+x-10, three primary natural attacks for +x/+x/+x or a combination of hasted full attack with a one-handed melee weapon and two secondary naturals for +x/+x/+x-5/+x-5/+x-5/+x-10. With the amount of buffing the alchemist can put out, I fail to see how these cannot remain relevant options, especially if the Alchemist goes the Master Chymist way and nigh-full bab to boot.
One final thing, I kind of wish alchemists could make their natural attacks magical more easily. Right now they are in the same boat as monks in that there's a really nice magic item, the Amulet of Mighty Fists available, but it's not cheap and further enhancements cost even more. A druid ally or a friendly magic crafter will be your friend should you choose to go that way. Master Craftsman+Craft Woundrous Items is an option too. Me, I trust my Galtische messer blade until someone either steals it or it gets shattered.I got around this one (and the poor full-attack option) by a combination of: potion of Magic Fang +1, Alchemical Allocation, and an Amulet of Mighty Fists (Acid). I think (could be wrong) it's better than iterative attacks. Three natural attacks, all at +1 Magic, with 1d6 acid. Toss on Thorn Body if you really want to pile on the d6s... :)
I know what you mean, but I can't see this working too well unless you are using Greater Magic Fang. Normal MF only affects one natural attack and that's a lot of Alchemical Allocations you are using if you want to buff all your attacks with that spell. :D A potion of greater magic fang is a good deal for an alchemist, I agree.
I feel kind of iffy though. It as if the spell was meant to be an oil instead of a potion, but since the rules support it being a potion, what the hell then.
With the amount of buffing the alchemist can put out, I fail to see how these cannot remain relevant options, especially if the Alchemist goes the Master Chymist way and nigh-full bab to boot.
The buffing takes too long. If the fight lasts 5 rounds and you spend 2 of them buffing yourself up to a fighter you're only going to be half a fighter. Full attacks with melee weapon are highly circumstantial. Between that and the buffs it usually one attack that you get, not 2 3 or 4. Bombs are ranged weapons, meaning that you can hold still and still full attack anyone within range.
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With the amount of buffing the alchemist can put out, I fail to see how these cannot remain relevant options, especially if the Alchemist goes the Master Chymist way and nigh-full bab to boot.
The buffing takes too long. If the fight lasts 5 rounds and you spend 2 of them buffing yourself up to a fighter you're only going to be half a fighter. Full attacks with melee weapon are highly circumstantial. Between that and the buffs it usually one attack that you get, not 2 3 or 4. Bombs are ranged weapons, meaning that you can hold still and still full attack anyone within range.
I see. We've had very different experiences with buffing. You are correct that mid-combat buffing eats precious actions and often means you won't cntribute at all. That's not what I'm suggesting.
You see, I've only played APs and Pathfinder Society and with both of those it is pretty easy to estimate when a combat will occur. Breaking into buildings, hopping down strange chutes, opening huge doors with eldritch symbols on them. If it is not a stealth mission, pre-battle buffing is entirely manageable. Many of your buffs are 10 min/lvl affairs, notably barkskin, draconic reservoir, heroism, spider climb and freedom of movement and several others are 1 min/lvl which usually last half a dungeon. Spells like fluid form, blur, expeditious retreat and shield will come in handy. And of course the mutagen itself lasts 10 min/lvl at first and then 1 hour/lvl.
And those are high lvl stuff for the most part. Before that you are sporting enlarge person, bull's strength and the like. Sure, only a couple of these give you +'s to hit, but the point stands. It's only haste and the beast shapes that I'd buff myself with in combat. And the shape spells simply because the limiting form means you only want to hold it during combat, not after.
I think it kind of boils down to 3/4 bab classes in general. If they are not given time to buff before combat, it's often only the inquisitor who can contribute, because activating his awesomeness is a free action(IIRC). I played a cleric for a long time and being buffed and buffing others was a given. Taking a round to buff here and there was expected.
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If you are going melee alchemist it's well worth switching to Master Chymst. The switch to full BAB, 3x day mutations (and the ability to pick what mutation you use on the fly), and brutality all make it a great option. Furious Mutagen means an Enlarged Alchemist is doing 2d6 claws and 3d6 bites (though there is some rules weirdness with that).
As for buffing... I almost never buff in combat, if combat lasts for three rounds spending one buffing is going to seriously cut into your effectiveness. In combat buffing is for folks who can hit everyone in the party with a single effect (or if you have an odd round of wait-time).
Heroism is 10m/ level, A potion works with Alchemical Allocation and last 50 minutes. That gives you a +2 bonus on attacks, skill rolls, etc... With my alchemist that's on pretty much non-stop.
Double up potions of Enlarge Person using the dilute potion discovery and crafting then use the potions with Accelerated Drinker as a move action. You do have to have it in hand to use it but at 25gp a shot it's a cheap quick buff.
Potions of greater magic fang also work with alchemical allocation and last hours/ level. Buy an Amulet of Mighty fists that does corrosive damage or better Holy... at 20k Holy is a pricey option. Alchemists get lots of attacks per round.
Power Attack... seriously great because you get the full 1:2 benefit for each attack without having to invest a bunch of feats like with TWF.
Melee in general relies on the full attack. Melee has a hard time getting the full attack. An alchemists main feature is the bomb: which is a ranged attack. Since you can grab point blank precise shot, and rapid shot for use on your bombs anyway, if you're going to go self buffing fighter you may as well go archer: you get the full attack in more often, and the burst damage you can do with your bombs is sick (on top of setting people on fire, knocking them prone , staggering them etc. The stagger +knock prone is particularly nasty)
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Melee in general relies on the full attack. Melee has a hard time getting the full attack. An alchemists main feature is the bomb: which is a ranged attack. Since you can grab point blank precise shot, and rapid shot for use on your bombs anyway, if you're going to go self buffing fighter you may as well go archer: you get the full attack in more often, and the burst damage you can do with your bombs is sick (on top of setting people on fire, knocking them prone , staggering them etc. The stagger +knock prone is particularly nasty)
Isn't this really more of an argument against melee characters in general than melee Alchemists in particular?
I mean, I'm not saying it's a bad argument per se (though I do think it really depends on the specific game how often melee characters will get to Full Attack), just that it has no more bearing on the Alchemist than the Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Cleric, etc. etc. and is thus not exactly what this thread is supposed to be talking about.
I mean, I'm not saying it's a bad argument per se (though I do think it really depends on the specific game how often melee characters will get to Full Attack), just that it has no more bearing on the Alchemist than the Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Cleric, etc. etc. and is thus not exactly what this thread is supposed to be talking about.
The original poster asked what works/what doesn't work for the alchemist.
If Melee doesn't work for anyone*, then it doesn't work for the alchemist. This can be a very tempting trap for going with 1500 natural weapons and a boatload of buffs. Its great if you can stand still and constantly whack but i don't see those situations all that often.
This goes doubly so for the alchemist, who has a class feature (bombs) that greatly benefit from ranged attack feats. So yes, i think this is pretty relevant for alchemists
* i don't think this is QUITE true. It can work for tanks and trippers.
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Umm... hate to break it to your but melee alchemists to quite well, and in general melee characters do quite well.
If all encounters started in the middle of an open plain at 100 yards archers would win every time (and should), but that's not how the game generally plays out. The game is full of terrain, soft cover, 90 degree corners, 20x20 rooms, cover, concealment, creatures with DR/ slashing, etc. Not to mention creatures don't like getting shot at from a range and close with you and a fair number of them have reach which makes the 5' step shuffle all but impossible. All of this conspires against the paper advantage the archer's awesome damage hose offers.
To make things worse, alchemist don't make particularly great archers. They don't have the to spare on Deadly Aim, Many Shot, Improved Precise, etc... Also, all the amazing archer builds rely on some type of bonus damage which the alchemist lacks. Fighters get Weapon Specialization and weapon training, Rangers get Favored Enemy/ Guide. There aren't a lot of great alchemist effects which apply to ranged attacks other than the bombs.
In melee on the other hand they get three attacks per round at 2nd level and have plenty of feat freedom, the only 'required feats' being Power Attack to ramp up damage, and Two Weapon Fighting at 7th level so you can spam bombs when you get Rapid Bomb at 8th.
If all encounters started in the middle of an open plain at 100 yards archers would win every time (and should), but that's not how the game generally plays out. The game is full of terrain, soft cover, 90 degree corners, 20x20 rooms, cover, concealment, creatures with DR/ slashing, etc. Not to mention creatures don't like getting shot at from a range and close with you and a fair number of them have reach which makes the 5' step shuffle all but impossible.
If it has DR slashing set it on fire. Its not hard to launch volleys at people at close range. If something comes at you 5 foot step behind your meat shield (that's why they get free infusions of large person), or stagger it and knock it prone with bombs.
Something with reach that charges you leaves you on the edge of its reach. You can 5 foot step for the first round at least, that should give you 1-2 rounds of firing on it to do something to it to keep it off you.
The weapon blanches let you have bushels of anti DR arrows on the cheap... you can even make them on your own time at 1/3 the cost.
All of this conspires against the paper advantage the archer's awesome damage hose offers.
As to the paper advantage of being able to make multiple attacks.
To make things worse, alchemist don't make particularly great archers. They don't have the to spare on Deadly Aim, Many Shot, Improved Precise, etc... Also, all the amazing archer builds rely on some type of bonus damage which the alchemist lacks. Fighters get Weapon Specialization and weapon training, Rangers get Favored Enemy/ Guide. There aren't a lot of great alchemist effects which apply to ranged attacks other than the bombs.
Point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot. After that you should have enough bombs to nuke the big bad for most encounters.
In melee on the other hand they get three attacks per round at 2nd level and have plenty of feat freedom, the only 'required feats' being Power Attack to ramp up damage, and Two Weapon Fighting at 7th level so you can spam bombs when you get Rapid Bomb at 8th.
which makes the bomb attacks at -2 -4 (i think)? Its not a horrible penalty but rapid shot does the same thing at -2 -2. With a big two-hander and a high strength you can at least get in one good shot or one good shot and one smaller one... but if you're relying on natural attacks and don't get in a full attack you loose over half your damage.
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If all encounters started in the middle of an open plain at 100 yards archers would win every time (and should), but that's not how the game generally plays out. The game is full of terrain, soft cover, 90 degree corners, 20x20 rooms, cover, concealment, creatures with DR/ slashing, etc. Not to mention creatures don't like getting shot at from a range and close with you and a fair number of them have reach which makes the 5' step shuffle all but impossible.If it has DR slashing set it on fire. Its not hard to launch volleys at people at close range. If something comes at you 5 foot step behind your meat shield (that's why they get free infusions of large person), or stagger it and knock it prone with bombs.
So... first you say melee sucks, then you make the assumption that someone else in the party is going to pick up that burden of suck for you? A little hypocritical?
You still assume that archers are getting full attacks every round which just doesn't happen. I just ran a PFS module where the party went 5 full encounters and the archer player didn't get a single full attack in and when he finally got the chance his arrow was deflected by a monk. He eventually wound up pulling out his sword and going melee.
The flipside is also true, there are some modules that favor archers with wide open areas and lots of difficult terrain. Kingmaker is nice to archers.
But your one sided assessment that melee doesn't work for alchemists is just plan wrong and you contradict your own assessment that "Melee doesn't work for anyone" when you pre-assume that someone (else) is going to be the melee guy.
So... first you say melee sucks, then you make the assumption that someone else in the party is going to pick up that burden of suck for you? A little hypocritical?
AHEM
If Melee doesn't work for anyone*, then it doesn't work for the alchemist * i don't think this is QUITE true. It can work for tanks and trippers.
So yes, i don't consider tanks useless, i just don't see an alchemist as a reliable tank. They can be tanks with a lot of buffs, but you don't always get that luxury. the party can be surprised , the party could have 5 fights in a day etc. You also run into MAD problems: str for damage, dex for AC since you can't wear heavy armor, con to survive hits, intelligence for bombs, and wisdom for your saving throws.
If all encounters started in the middle of an open plain at 100 yards archers would win every time (and should), but that's not how the game generally plays out. The
You still assume that archers are getting full attacks every round which I just don't see. You kick in the door, then have to move to get a clear line so you don't get a full attack.
Shoot through your friends. Or move and buff that round.
The melee dude charges in blocks your site line so you move again. The spellcaster casts fog cloud so you sit around frustrated.Other characters do not block your line of sight. They are at worst an effective -8 to your attack (-4 for shooting into melee, provide a +4 cover bonus). reasonably for an archer they are at worst a -4 (point blank and precise are very common) if you can't 5 foot step somewhere to get a clear shot.
Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.
Fog clouds are frustrating to everyone. Its why i don't like smokers.
I've seen plenty of dungeons where the archer players get really frustrated.It happens, but its not nearly as common as for meleers. Fly is neigh ubiquitous at higher levels, and at lower levels you have cliffs, pits, minions between you and the spellcaster, barricades, rough terrain, and you almost always, always, start the fight off more than 5 feet apart.
The flipside is also true, there are some modules that favor archers. Kingmaker has a lot of wide open fields and a fair number of slow melee only enemies. But your one sided assessment is just false.Or i have a different gaming experience than you do, with fewer modules. Its preposterous of you to discount my experience without having been with me at the gaming tables.
Yeah.... My experience actually playing melee alchemist is directly contradictory to your paper theories about them so you are fighting an uphill battle here.
Edit: Mostly it's just the amount of full attacking for ranged versus melee that contradicts what I've seen.
Its disingenuous for you to argue that its on paper because its not what you've seen, or because you misread the rules about other character blocking your line of sight. If you haven't seen it, thats fine. But you're saying i haven't seen it and you have no way of knowing that. My fights have included terrain, cliffs, bridges, hedgerows, flying monsters, teleporting wizards ..things that are much harder on melee than ranged.
My experience comes from PLAYING 3.0. 3.5, modern (darkmatter), and pathfinder from both sides of the table. It is NOT from looking at paper. Even TRYING to set up scenarios where the melee person could full attack consistently was hard without using 1 brick monster with a ton of hit points. This is what i usually SEE happen. There is no uphill battle. There is no battle. You are simply incorrect in asserting what I've seen. You have no cause to insult me and call me a liar by saying its only on paper.
Round 1 is the inevitable run at them and charge.
Round 2 is a full attack...sometimes. Since in D&D it makes more sense to have 1 creature dead than 2 at half hit points, anything the full attacking fighter type wounds the rest of the party kills.
Round 3 is a reposition to attack (and usually kill) something wounded.
Round 4 is a reposition, either to kill or wound. If round 5 happens, there may or may not be a full attack.
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I played an Alchemist not too long ago. Sadly, the game was postponed until the group finished our Curse of the Crimson Throne game.
The GM running the game the Alchemist was in let us use a mix of 3.5 and PF. I home brewed a Tinker Gnome to better fit into the PF ruleset just for the class. I was able to have a +2 to Dex, +2 Int, and a -2 to Cha. I also had a +2 to all crafts, and a few other helpful race abilities. The GM and I worked together on balancing, so he felt the race was good for play.
My character was THE mad scientist, and though he was optimized for crafting (at level 1, he had a +11 to Craft: Alchemy) he really did well in other areas.
In terms of combat, he was a bomber, throwing bombs and splash weapons at just about everything. The GM had only two or three combats in a game day, so I never ran out of bombs. Even if he did, he had plenty of other things to throw. There was also a crossbow, which though rarely used did help.
Outside of combat, either before or after, he was a secondary healer and buffer. I was aiming to take the Eberron prestige class, Alchemist Savant, just for the spell vials and the ability to buff and heal by throwing them at my fellow party members.
Lastly, because he was focused so much on crafting he was the parties goto guy for gear. A great deal of gold was saved from the crafting.
However, the fun in playing this character did not come from the stats of the character, but from the roleplaying I did with him.
Dr. Heinz Fizzgerald Boominburg was inspired by lots and lots of crazy and mad scientists. Dr. Heinz Doofensmurz, Dr. Shelden Cooper, Gru, Dr. Horrible, Gune, and even the Dr. Frankenstein in Young Frankenstein have influenced my role playing and development of this character. His Charisma is horrendously low, his Wisdom average, and his Intelligence is crazy high.
All together, he is a crazy little gnome who talks constantly, is always sketching in a workbook or tinkering with a project (even when he is walking) and who doesn't give a damn about what others think about anything. He wants to bring about the coming of Gnomeageddon, an apocalyptic event he claims will shake the very foundations of the world, but he has no idea what he needs to do or even what exactly gnomeageddon is. The party members are considered minions and even though there is a reason why everyone is traveling together, he thinks they like him and that he is the reason they "follow" him. He takes what people say literally, which caused him to flip out when he was told, "the town is going down hill," and "People are milling about in the rain." He thought people were literally milling outside in rain and that the town was sliding down hill! He can't hold his alcohol and tends to throw bombs, make traps in party members rooms, and craft pink flamingos when drunk. In his defense, the party was attacked on the way home from the tavern, though that isn't the best excuse for the flamingos.
So, yeah. My thoughts on the alchemist are a little towards the roleplaying potential the class has. They are very much a great expert in that they can cover so many bases and be good at it, or they can focus towards one or two roles and be great at them.
Have fun. I know I have.
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Oh! Alchemical items. Download Genius Games Krazy Kragnar's Alchemical Surplus. They have some pretty good items that help for later levels. However don't overlook the stuff in the offical rulebooks. There is alot that can be done with some creative thinking.
For example, you can crate some pretty nasty traps with enough casting powder. Being covered in quick dry plaster is not fun, and having your equipment drenched in it can really ruin a good plan.
Don't overlook non alchemical items as well. A pound of flour is very useful. Especially if you can convince your GM that it can explode if the flour is thrown into the air. Not only that but throwing a loose bag of it after hitting an invisible creature with water can temporarily paint the party a visible target.
Don't underestimate the alchemist's talent to throw anything.
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Its disingenuous for you to argue that its on paper because its not what you've seen, or because you misread the rules about other character blocking your line of sight.
Read SOFT COVER... it's in the combat chapter then you can talk about ignoring rules. Line of sight != clear penalty free shot.
Since you apparently missed it:
Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.
Yes that's right, you can use your enemies as cover in combat. That means if your "meat shield" is between you and your enemy, your enemy can use your buddy as his own shield for a +4 bonus to AC and precise shot does nothing about COVER, it only helps with the generic firing into melee penalty.
Yeah... if you ignore all the cover rules archers are the bomb.
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Some fights you have notice of and can buff ahead of time. Some fights happen on you when you with little notice. I think the nice thing about the Alchemist is that he can be built to handle either situation. If he can buff ahead of time, he makes a great melee fighter. If not, then he can lob bombs at a moments notice.
There are a lot of good solid 10m/ level buffs. Obviously mutagen, feral mutagen fall into that but Heroism and Greater Magic Fang are pretty sweet also. Also... false life is like pre-healing that lasts hours per day. It's expensive as a second level spell but can be a life saver.
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My fights have included terrain, cliffs, bridges, hedgerows, flying monsters, teleporting wizards ..things that are much harder on melee than ranged.
I've never disputed that some situations favor archers, I've just pointed out that you seem to have a blind spot about the situations that favor melee, may of which are extremely common in low-mid level play. For many (most?) there are still plenty of dungeons in the game even if it isn't called Dungeons and Dragons anymore.
Read SOFT COVER... it's in the combat chapter then you can talk about ignoring rules. Line of sight != clear penalty free shot.
AHEM...
Other characters do not block your line of sight. They are at worst an effective -8 to your attack (-4 for shooting into melee, provide a +4 cover bonus). reasonably for an archer they are at worst a -4 (point blank and precise are very common) if you can't 5 foot step somewhere to get a clear shot.
I didn't say penalty free shot. I said you could shoot. You don't have to move.
You don't have to move. you can take the effective -4 (since he has a +4 cover bonus) and still full attack. In all likelihood there's not just one monster and you have shots at someone else.
Since you apparently missed it:
-i quoted it to you, above.
Edit: I don't know if i misread something at 2 am, or if you clarified what you meant when you switched to the bulleted posts but i think we're talking past each other. I thought you meant that you couldn't shoot through your meat shield. (which is something i've seen ruled before)
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So at 8th level:
Alchemist with Feral Mutagen (Power Attack, TWF)
When he runs out of bombs or if someone gets in his face
Archer Alchemist (PBS, Precise Shot,
Essentially the class is pretty damned good at ranged stuff to start, investing in a second ranged option is largely redundant and makes your character more one-dimensional. Setting up the character to be pretty good at BOTH is no bigger an investment and the payoff in flexibility is huge.
So at 8th level:
Alchemist with Feral Mutagen (Power Attack, TWF)
-What happens when the feral mutagen wears off? If you are in and out of your dungeons in an hour and a half that's fine. In my experience the adventuring day tends to be a good bit longer, to the point that 1 min per level and 10 min/level doesn't make a noticeable difference for me.
Has a ranged attack with 3 attacks per round (-2/-2/-7 touch) with killer damage. But may be taking as much as a -8 if you don't take point blank and precise shot. (if you do we're essentially talking the same character)
When he runs out of bombs or if someone gets in his face
Gets three attacks at full BAB averaging 15-20 each (est based on the fact that my second level alchemist averages 10) - Could you show the math on that one?
Can take enlarge self, shield, for short term buffs to ramp up survivability and damage in melee. -I'd much rather take infusion and put shield and enlarge person on the person already wearing plate armor and holding the very big sword. Sure, i'm not directly dealing an extra 1d6+3 damage every round, but that extra damage is still killing the things that want me dead.
Archer Alchemist (PBS, Precise Shot,
Has a ranged attack with 3 attacks per round (-2/-2/-7 touch) with killer damage. Has a better chance of hitting with his primary attack due to focus -I don't think this one can be overstated. He almost can't miss with the bombs at this point with just a measley -4. He's almost guaranteed to have 3 bombs hit, with three different status effects. Yes, its pretty bomb intensive, but the point is if you're facing 4 encounters per day you do enough to contribute
Has one spare feat Point bank, precise, rapid, and usually extra discovery.
Has a secondary (largely redundant) ranged weapon. Can attack three times/ round with a bow though often it's at -6 due to shooting through cover. Its not as often as you think. usually after you move once in the first round you're in a position to keep plinking at someone in the back row. Again, point blank and precise are so useful for bombs alone you considered tossing them on the melee alchemist anyway.
Average damage per bow shot is going to be ~8-10 hp/ hit, likely less because why would you spend money upgrading a bow when it's redundant with the far more powerful bombs? -Because 1) gear specifically for alchemists is kinda sparse, so you don't have much to spend it on. 2) You either get first dibs on the bow when its found (if no one uses it) or you grab it as a hand me down weapon from someone who's upgrading.
Essentially the class is pretty damned good at ranged stuff to start, investing in a second ranged option is largely redundant and makes your character more one-dimensional. Setting up the character to be pretty good at BOTH is no bigger an investment and the payoff in flexibility is huge.The class can shoot, bomb, buff, use alchemical items like a surgical tool, always have the right weapon for a metal based damge reduction, recycle their entire potion supply through their nose, and even tank if they have a round or two to prep- one dimensionality is not an occupational hazard for an alchemist.
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But may be taking as much as a -8 if you don't take point blank and precise shot. (if you do we're essentially talking the same character)So at 8th level:
Alchemist with Feral Mutagen (Power Attack, TWF)
-What happens when the feral mutagen wears off? If you are in and out of your dungeons in an hour and a half that's fine. In my experience the adventuring day tends to be a good bit longer, to the point that 1 min per level and 10 min/level doesn't make a noticeable difference for me.
Has a ranged attack with 3 attacks per round (-2/-2/-7 touch) with killer damage.
?
-8 there is a -4 penalty for firing into melee.
When he runs out of bombs or if someone gets in his face
Gets three attacks at full BAB averaging 15-20 each (est based on the fact that my second level alchemist averages 10) - Could you show the math on that one?
Actually I guesstimated a bit high I was thinking of the melee focused alchemist I have that's no-where near as good at bombing with regards to damage.
Strength/ Mutagen based on my 8th level Alchemist I played for Cult of the Ebon Destroyer not the switch hitter:
Amulet of Mighty Fists Frost
Potion Heroism w/ Alchemical Allocation (50 minutes usable 2-3/ day)
Potion Greater Magic Fang w/ Alchemical Allocation (hours/ level once/ day)
Charge w/ Power Attack:
Masterwork Great Axe +17 (1d12 + 12 + 4PA) Avg 22.5
Full Attack +8 STR/ +2 Heroism/ +1 Magic Fang/ +6 BAB:
2x Claws +17 (1d6+8+1d6 cold) Avg 15.5 each
1x Bite +16 (1d8+8+1d6 cold) Avg 16.5
Full Attack w/ Power Attack:
2x Claws +15 (1d6+12+1d6 cold) Avg 19.5 each
1x Bite +14 (1d8+12+1d6 cold) Avg 20.5
A more typical switch hitter who is still quite good at bombing:
Amulet of Mighty Fists Frost
Potion Heroism w/ Alchemical Allocation (50 minutes usable 2-3/ day)
Potion Greater Magic Fang w/ Alchemical Allocation (hours/ level once/ day)
Charge w/ Power Attack:
Masterwork Great Axe +13 (1d12 + 6 + 4PA) Avg 16.5
Full Attack +4 STR/ +2 Heroism/ +1 Magic Fang/ +6 BAB:
2x Claws +13 (1d6+4+1d6 cold) Avg 11.5 each
1x Bite +14 (1d8+4+1d6 cold) Avg 14.5
Full Attack w/ Power Attack:
2x Claws +11 (1d6+8+1d6 cold) Avg 13.5 each
1x Bite +110 (1d8+8+1d6 cold) Avg 16.5
Can take enlarge self, shield, for short term buffs to ramp up survivability and damage in melee. -I'd much rather take infusion and put shield and enlarge person on the person already wearing plate armor and holding the very big sword. Sure, i'm not directly dealing an extra 1d6+3 damage every round, but that extra damage is still killing the things that want me dead.
Which again presumes that someone ELSE is getting their hands dirty.
It's a good thing some people don't mind doing it or you'd be screwed.
-I don't think this one can be overstated. He almost can't miss with the bombs at this point with just a measley -4. He's almost guaranteed to have 3 bombs hit, with three different status effects. Yes, its pretty bomb intensive, but the point is if you're facing 4 encounters per day you do enough to contributeHas a better chance of hitting with his primary attack due to focus
Huh? #1 Nothing precludes you from going PBS/ Precise with the first build, I even listed it as an option. The whole point is the first build gives you the flexibility to do either. If you go the Archer route you are pretty much tied to redundancy.
Ignored some redundant/ repetitive points we will never agree on.
-Because 1) gear specifically for alchemists is kinda sparse, so you don't have much to spend it on. 2) You either get first dibs on the bow when its found (if no one uses it) or you grab it as a hand me down weapon from someone who's upgrading.
I never have trouble finding gear to buy for my alchemist, even my straight bombers. A +1 bow is nearly pointless since it's not giving you enough bonus damage to make a difference, a +1/ flaming bow is so rarely going to be used it's not worth the expense. Sell it and buy something you can use: better armor, a headband of intellect, a belt of strength or dexterity... heck before I'd buy an 8500gp bow I'd pick up some fun items like a Figurine of Wondrous power.
I think the issue with duration needs to be addressed. You're a decent melee combatant for the hour when the mutagen and heroism potions are going , but again, in most of the dungeons I've played in you're down there for a while and don't stop to rest till the clerics out of healing spells. If the OP is in the same situation you are, it works. If he's in the same situation i am, he's in trouble.
The high strength or even moderate strength melee combatant is going to loose +hit with the bombs because of a lack of focus on dex (which does get less important as you level) , and more importantly fewer bombs and bombs less likely to drop a status effect because the DC is tied to intelligence.
-8 there is a -4 penalty for firing into melee.
You were assuming that we would have to shoot through the meat shield. So without point blank and precise its -4 for shooting into melee and they have a +4 to their ac.
Which again presumes that someone ELSE is getting their hands dirty.
Preferably someone in plate. I value melee for what it does: creates a meat shield. Its a very valuable role.
It's a good thing some people don't mind doing it or you'd be screwed.
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# Has a better chance of hitting with his primary attack due to focus
-I don't think this one can be overstated. He almost can't miss with the bombs at this point with just a measley -4. He's almost guaranteed to have 3 bombs hit, with three different status effects. Yes, its pretty bomb intensive, but the point is if you're facing 4 encounters per day you do enough to contribute
Huh? #1 Nothing precludes you from going PBS/ Precise with the first build, I even listed it as an option. The whole point is the first build gives you the flexibility to do either. If you go the Archer route you are pretty much tied to redundancy.
Ignored some redundant/ repetitive points we will never agree on.
Quote:
-Because 1) gear specifically for alchemists is kinda sparse, so you don't have much to spend it on. 2) You either get first dibs on the bow when its found (if no one uses it) or you grab it as a hand me down weapon from someone who's upgrading.
I never have trouble finding gear to buy for my alchemist, even my straight bombers. A +1 bow is nearly pointless since it's not giving you enough bonus damage to make a difference, a +1/ flaming bow is so rarely going to be used it's not worth the expense. Sell it and buy something you can use: better armor, a headband of intellect, a belt of strength or dexterity... heck before I'd buy an 8500gp bow I'd pick up some fun items like a Figurine of Wondrous power.
-+1 flaming aciding freezing ARROWS on the other hand are a decent investment , since you only use them when you're low on or saving bombs.