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I bought my Pathfinder core book at GenCon last year. I wanted to buy it direct from the company, so that Paizo gets as big a share of the profits as possible. I support American companies that produce a good product.
I consider myself a "light-user". I mostly consult rules online, and so my book gets little use outside of game night when my players need to look something up. Yet already my binding is loose and pages are starting to come free. On a hunch, I looked to see where the book was printed. As I suspected, made in China.
I talked with a lot of gamers about this. Last Friday at a game store, I even pointed out the difference between a Paizo book printed in China, and a White Wolf book printed in Canada. The difference in quality was readily apparent.
When I worked for Eden Game Studios, they decided to have one of their core books printed in China to save a few bucks. Not only were the shipping delays maddening, they ended up losing more money than they saved because of the amount of product returned.
I have been in the publishing business and I know there are union shops in Canada and the U.S. that offer much better services, quality, and competitive prices.
With some core books running $50 a piece, can Paizo really justify giving us an inferior product? Do the savings equal the hurt customers and the returns?
Do I have political motivations? I cannot deny that I am a supporter of U.S. workers and unions, and I don't like autocratic regimes. But the quality issue is really what gets me. I challenge anyone to compare a Paizo book printed in China to another company's book printed in Canada or the U.S.. You will see the difference.
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I have just compared the hardcovers from Paizo (printed in China) and the ones I have from White Wolf, from its Sword&Sorcery Studios department (the Scarred Lands and Ravenloft ones) which are printed in Canada, and the binding strenght, paper quality and "lying flat" factor are marginally but definitively better on the Paizo side - not counting the fact that the Paizo products are full color.
Pretty much the same can be said of the softcovers, again comparing products from the aforementioned lines.
I can't honestly see where the "inferior product" part comes from.
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I have just compared the hardcovers from Paizo (printed in China) and the ones I have from White Wolf, from its Sword&Sorcery Studios department (the Scarred Lands and Ravenloft ones) which are printed in Canada, and the binding strenght, paper quality and "lying flat" factor are marginally but definitively better on the Paizo side - not counting the fact that the Paizo products are full color.
Pretty much the same can be said of the softcovers, again comparing products from the aforementioned lines.
I can't honestly see where the "inferior product" part comes from.
Try something a little more current and in a comparable price range. Open the book and push the pages flat. See those stitches in your Paizo book? Those pages will be working themselves free soon. See stitches on let's say any current World of Darkness book?
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Unfortunately (??) I don't own any more recent or current WW products - I think the latest I bought were from the Exalted 1st edition line.
Unless they have made some dramatic improvements, I find difficult to imagine something spectacularly better than the PFRPG core book, which is surving admirably heavy weekly use (and abuse), and it's on par with the huge Ptolus tome - that I consider the golden standard to be referred to.
On the contrary, some 3.5 rulebooks that have lived mostly on my shelves (Heroes of Horror and Fiendish Codex II) seem to be dying just from old age, without having performed any notable table duty...
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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This is why we need a non-rules FAQ...
Or, maybe instead of FAQ, it should be an FFT, Frequent Flamewar Topics.
Here's the short answer:
It is not economical for Paizo to print outside of China.
Here's the longer answer:
No, seriously, it's not economical, they've discussed this on an annual basis since Pathfinder was launched. Try searching under Paizo, printing, China, etc.
Here's the answer if you really want to keep going:
Things aren't changing. If you know of a good U.S./non-China printer with comparable prices, pass on the info to Paizo. A discussion about Chinese trade policy/human rights/U.S. relations/etc. is irrelevant.
Here's another topic to consider if you found this flamewar interesting:
Cheesecake.
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Fighters v. Wizards
Cleric Heavy Armor Proficiency
"Non-core" material in APs
Set Pieces
Gunslingers and Ninjas in Western Fantasy
Pregens
Wording of Vital Strike
Sebastian's sexual habits
Savage Species (tangentially related to the one above)
PDF subscriptions
James Jacobs didn't read Tome of 9 Swords
4e
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As Sebastian says, this is not a new topic. They've printed these things in China for years and I have noted no quality problems. And as a UK citizen, I don't really care if US workers are propped up or not - I want my product for the most reasonable price. As for autocratic regimes, let's all stop buying gasoline to show those Saudis.
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Fighters v. Wizards
Cleric Heavy Armor Proficiency
"Non-core" material in APs
Set Pieces
Gunslingers and Ninjas in Western Fantasy
Pregens
Wording of Vital Strike
Sebastian's sexual habits
Savage Species (tangentially related to the one above)
PDF subscriptions
James Jacobs didn't read Tome of 9 Swords
4e
Any Thread Gorbacz has posted in...;)
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Indeed, chiming in with the others, I've been buying damn near all of Paizo's stuff since the magazine days and I've only ever had problems with Gods and Magic, which it looks like just one of the print runs was bad and Paizo's customer service is awesome about.
I am a very heavy user of the products and pretty rough on my RP books, they get flipped through a lot for reference and re-reading, ported around in bags and tubs, stored in big stacks rather than on shelves. Pretty much everything I wouldn't want to do to a normal book they get put through just because of the way they are used and my need for them to be more accessible than 'safe'.
Paizo's books have always held up wonderfully through it all. I'm not going to go home and flip through all my other RP books to see where they were printed, but since you mentioned newer WW stuff, I suppose I can reference those. For about 6 months we had a weekly WoD game going and for 3 months past that a bi-weekly one. From just that period of time my core WoD book has pages that have fallen loose in it and my WoD armory has a split down its spine. The Paizo stuff I've had a lot longer and use with a lot more frequency has certainly held up better.
It would be great if they found a way to bring jobs to the US for their printing, but its certainly not because of questioning their product quality.
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Any Thread Gorbacz has posted in...;)Fighters v. Wizards
Cleric Heavy Armor Proficiency
"Non-core" material in APs
Set Pieces
Gunslingers and Ninjas in Western Fantasy
Pregens
Wording of Vital Strike
Sebastian's sexual habits
Savage Species (tangentially related to the one above)
PDF subscriptions
James Jacobs didn't read Tome of 9 Swords
4e
I'm the canary in a mineshaft. I raise hellfire and shout for the fire brigade even as the first flames rise.
And hey, I didn't post in those Sebastian threads.
Here's another topic to consider if you found this flamewar interesting:
Cheesecake.
Mmmmm.... cheesecake.
I like a raspberry glaze over mine.
Or a bit of chocolate and strawberry.
Mmmmm.... cheesecake...
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So basically what all of you are saying is that numerous people have an issue with it, so let's ignore it and move on.
If you haven't been reading these message boards since day one, you're not one of the cool kids.
I'm not saying let's stop buying Paizo products. I'm not saying it's all junk. I don't understand why everyone in my physical reality has a core rulebook that is falling apart and yours' are not, but I don't think people are really being objective about the quality issue.
In order to find a comparable printer, Paizo would have to show us the numbers. Since this is obviously a big issue for a lot of fans, maybe they should.
I'm not saying this is a line in the sand. I shop at Walmart. I don't like to, but sometimes it is what my budget can afford. If Paizo really can't make a decent profit printing outside of China, I say print in China.
All I can say is that my experience says otherwise.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Uh...no. I'm saying that people have debated this before, and that you could investigate such debates and become better informed about the decision making process and considerations relating to Paizo's printing process. Such threads have invariably included a number of posters, much like yourself, insisting they know of a comparable printer, both in terms of quality and price, outside of China. Paizo has said they are open to the information about such mythical entities, which is why I suggested you pass on your amazing discovery to them (which is similar to having them open up their books to the general public but, you know, without that whole messy problem of revealing confidential business information, even if such an issue is Really Important to Some Fans(tm)).
If you have money, please place it where your mouth is. If you don't, I'm giving you a heads up that this horse is dead; additional beatings, even those administered by your capable hands, will do nothing to further motivate the beast.
...insisting they know of a comparable printer, both in terms of quality and price, outside of China. Paizo has said they are open to the information...
I'm going to second Sebastian here: if you have a printer who you believe can compete in both price and quality to the printing in China, please do send us the information. You can send it directly to my attention: chris.self@paizo.com.
We'll be more than happy to have them quote and price our print runs.
So basically what all of you are saying is that numerous people have an issue with it, so let's ignore it and move on.
I'm not saying let's stop buying Paizo products. I'm not saying it's all junk. I don't understand why everyone in my physical reality has a core rulebook that is falling apart and yours' are not, but I don't think people are really being objective about the quality issue.
All I can say is that my experience says otherwise.
Thats not what people are saying, they're saying that while there are some issues they are the minority. Typically if you have a satisfied customer odds are you won't hear anything, but a disgruntled customer will raise enough hell to make you think that everyone who deals with the business is treated horribly.
As far as the binding and print quality goes, my group has 5 people in in it. Between us we've bought at least 2 copies of every book paizo has put out aside from the APs (I'm the only AP purchaser since i'm the dominant DM) In some cases like with the core rulebooks, the APG, and bestiaries we all have our own copy, plus a spare CRB just in case. Of all of these the printing issues we've had have included:
1) Gods and magic had a section fall out - This was a print run issue and paizo fixed it by replacing it without demanding the damaged book, said book is still being used as an extra copy without further damage
2) one of our core rule books had a repeated section and was missing another, amazon replaced the copy
3) one of the bestiaries had a warped cover (this was more likely due to Barnes and nobles shipping, rather than paizo)
this is THREE issues out of god knows how many books we have between us (Just a quick count on my shelves reaches 99, not including a few that i have on loan to players) and 2-3 years of them being in business. considering that both my bestiary and CRB are from the first print run as well (which is more likely to have problems being while they were still working kinks out) and are holding up despite being dropped, knocked off the table, pressed flat and frequently had books stacked on top of them while open during flipping between entries I'd say Paizo does pretty good compared to most in the industry. You say listen to the fact all these others have complained, I say considering the fact that so many rise to the defense shows just how small a percentage the mistakes are.
Add to that the fact that when they DO fall a bit short they do everything in their power to rectify it puts them lightyears ahead of the competition. I doubt White Wolf, WOTC, or any other company would so quickly replace a book at their own cost without question
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@ Chris
Working on it.
Now the question is, how much more would you be willing to pay for better quality?
How about this? Say Paizo pays a living wage, about $30K a year. No one should lose their job over this. If it costs more than $30k a year extra to use a different printer, you don't do it.
Sound fair?
@ Chris
Working on it.
Now the question is, how much more would you be willing to pay for better quality?
How about this? Say Paizo pays a living wage, about $30K a year. No one should lose their job over this. If it costs more than $30k a year extra to use a different printer, you don't do it.
Sound fair?
I for one would not be willing to pay much more than the already $40-$50 per book, and I might be wrong but with the current economy I doubt many others are going to be willing to do so either.
@ Chris
Working on it.
Now the question is, how much more would you be willing to pay for better quality?
How about this? Say Paizo pays a living wage, about $30K a year. No one should lose their job over this. If it costs more than $30k a year extra to use a different printer, you don't do it.
Sound fair?
Take a quick look at this: http://paizo.com/paizo/about/schedule
That's more or less one quarter of our year's printing. Just from that page, you can extrapolate about ~85 products a year. If each product cost $500 more to print, we're already talking about $42,500. A small percentage printing cost increase (really, any percentage) will easily take us over that $30k mark in a heartbeat.
When I say competitive pricing...I mean *really* competitive.
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So basically what all of you are saying is that numerous people have an issue with it, so let's ignore it and move on.
If you haven't been reading these message boards since day one, you're not one of the cool kids.
I'm not saying let's stop buying Paizo products. I'm not saying it's all junk. I don't understand why everyone in my physical reality has a core rulebook that is falling apart and yours' are not, but I don't think people are really being objective about the quality issue.
In order to find a comparable printer, Paizo would have to show us the numbers. Since this is obviously a big issue for a lot of fans, maybe they should.
I'm not saying this is a line in the sand. I shop at Walmart. I don't like to, but sometimes it is what my budget can afford. If Paizo really can't make a decent profit printing outside of China, I say print in China.
All I can say is that my experience says otherwise.
Actually, I really don't think that this is a big issue for anyone much other than people currently touting for printing work. The comment was more that a few people have raised it in the past over the years, not that this is a really popular subject that gets raised all the time, as it doesn't.
And what's so morally great about printing in the US anyway? Don't Chinese people deserve to have jobs?
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Now the question is, how much more would you be willing to pay for better quality?
The quality of the products is already excellent. You're asking the wrong question. The question should be "how much more quality do you require for an increase of $X?" Since the quality is already excellent, the change in cost had better be nearly zero.
Also, I would love for Paizo to use a US printer. However, I'm not willing to pay more for it. I'm also not willing to pay more to support a union.
-Skeld
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Now the question is, how much more would you be willing to pay for better quality?The quality of the products is already excellent. You're asking the wrong question. The question should be "how much more quality do you require for an increase of $X?" Since the quality is already excellent, the change in cost had better be nearly zero.
Exactly. My Paizo books are the best gaming products I own in terms of print quality and I have had zero issues with binding despite my books seeing heavy use and not always being stored under ideal conditions (yes, I was a bit concerned about my Core Rule Book, it seemed to 'creak' a bit upon opening - but after numerous games and numerous times being lugged around in bags and numerous times left open on the table - the binding is fine).
Given the excellent quality I would not want to pay ANY more for another printer. Not being a US citizen (as with many Paizo customers) I have no preferences either way on whether the product is printed in the US. I would be against it if the cost is increased to do so.
Chief Technical Officer
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We print where it makes the most sense, factoring cost, quality, reliability, delivery times, and more. When we find more sensible options, we take them.
We moved our card printing from the US to China because the US card printer we had been using decided to focus only on larger print runs than we do, so they intentionally priced themselves out of smaller jobs.
Pathfinder Tales novels are printed in the US because a certain group of US printers are particularly specialized at printing mass-market paperbacks. They do it faster, better, and cheaper than any other place we know of.
And if we were printing comic books, odds are good they'd be printed in Canada, because there's a certain Canadian printer that's really good at that.
I love getting affordable books from paizo. Yes, it raises moral questions about supporting an oppressive regime, but, as was pointed out above, as long as we get oil from saudi arabia or clothes from child labor in bangladesh, this is a moot point. It is fashionable right now to bash china for its lack of human rights (not in the least because China is on its way to become the next (only?) superpower by being ruthless in the extreme). But this is beside the point.
I did not experience any quality issues so far, only trouble with my stuff getting trashed while shipping, so the quality is fine to me.
I do remember starting one thread about concerns that the chinese printer(s) might not have environmental standards that are worth the name, but paizo stated that they only use certified printers, which is all they can do. What that means in China is another topic entirely, and nothing paizo is responsible for.
Stefan
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I am a heavy book user, and I do have to say that my first Core Rule book lost its binding rather fast. And it has pages ready to fall out. Hence the reason its my "first" Core Rule book. The second one sits on the shelf waiting for its turn.
However that is the only quality issue I have had with any of the Pathfinder products I have purchased to date.
Like others, I would love to see everything made in non-'autocratic regime' states/countries.
I talked with a lot of gamers about this. Last Friday at a game store, I even pointed out the difference between a Paizo book printed in China, and a White Wolf book printed in Canada. The difference in quality was readily apparent.
One thing to remember is that with very few exceptions all WW books are b/w and the few that are mostly b/w. Paizo is 100% color. Heck, I'd print in china if I sold in Paizo's kind of numbers, but I don't so I print in America.
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So going by what Chris said, a different supplier would have to come in at less than $350 more per print run.
I'm not talking about a price increase, I'm talking how much profit margin can be squeezed to get better quality. All political debates aside, I stand by that if it means Paizo would have to cut staff or not hire staff, keep printing in China.
All being said, Paizo has some of the highest prices in the industry. But that comparison is somewhat apples to oranges, since they tend to publish larger hardcovers than anyone else (which incidentally, might be the biggest problem with the binding).
Mind you, $20 for a 64 page staple-bound product is a bit too salty, so I tend to stay away from those.
$50 for a hardcover? Considering their size, okay, but I would balk at anything higher.
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I'd like to point out that comparing Paizo, which can fit all their employees* into an elevator to, say, WotC *IS* apples to oranges on oh so many levels when it comes to sizes of print runs, buck earned per book sold, amount of money owed to corporate overlords and approach to Sebastian's sex life (or unlife).
* did Jason slim down enough to fit in with the rest of the crew yet?
Mind you, $20 for a 64 page staple-bound product is a bit too salty, so I tend to stay away from those.
$50 for a hardcover? Considering their size, okay, but I would balk at anything higher.
Note: our staple-bound books are, max, $13.99. Anything in the 19.99+ range is perfect bound or better.
And, as you point out, our $50 hardcover is quite fat. Compare our $40 hardcovers to some of the $35 hardcovers out there. I would like to see what you think of the comparison.
I consider myself a "light-user". I mostly consult rules online, and so my book gets little use outside of game night when my players need to look something up. Yet already my binding is loose and pages are starting to come free. On a hunch, I looked to see where the book was printed. As I suspected, made in China.
+1
I am extremely anal when it comes to caring for my books. And I too consult rules online, unless its during a game. I have opened my Core Rulebook less than 50-60 times and already the spine is becoming weak and flimsy, pages are starting to fall out and it has reached the point where I don't want to use it at all for fear it will become useless.
I shouldn't have to discontinue use of a product for fear it will completely fall apart, when it has received so little use and such excellent care. I have already purchased a second Core Rulebook to replace the first. Very disappointing.
The book looks to be in near mint condition...until you pick it up.
Edit: I will say this. My other Pathfinder RPG hardcovers are not having this issue. But they are not as robust and receive even less use.
Cheesecake.
Here's something I wish I'd find in Paizo's bindings: Chinese Cheesecake.
I'd like to point out that comparing Paizo, which can fit all their employees* into an elevator...LOL.
As if we have an elevator.
Were people making an assumption based on your avatar's little pot belly?
All being said, Paizo has some of the highest prices in the industry.
Try playing Traveller. $40 for the 200 page settingless b/w corebook. Paizo seems cheap by comparison.
The book looks to be in near mint condition...until you pick it up.
Edit: I will say this. My other Pathfinder RPG hardcovers are not having this issue. But they are not as robust and receive even less use.
Many First and Second Printings are like this. They changed printers with the Third/Fourth, and they're a LOT better.
I paid $60 for my Deathwatch book, but it is only slightly over 400 pages. Of course, it is also printed in China. I'm guessing they have smaller print runs though and printing price is very much related to volume.
I'm surprised at the complaints about the sturdiness of the Core Rulebook. Mine fell off a table and has only minor damage to the spine. No pages show any sign of falling out. I've been lugging it to my weekly Pathfinder game since release.
So going by what Chris said, a different supplier would have to come in at less than $350 more per print run.
I'm not talking about a price increase, I'm talking how much profit margin can be squeezed to get better quality. All political debates aside, I stand by that if it means Paizo would have to cut staff or not hire staff, keep printing in China.
All being said, Paizo has some of the highest prices in the industry. But that comparison is somewhat apples to oranges, since they tend to publish larger hardcovers than anyone else (which incidentally, might be the biggest problem with the binding).
Mind you, $20 for a 64 page staple-bound product is a bit too salty, so I tend to stay away from those.
$50 for a hardcover? Considering their size, okay, but I would balk at anything higher.
I think Paizo are too cheap, personally. I wish they'd charge a bit more so they could hire more people and produce more product. Of course, part of that judgement is based on what I see as the high quality of the product in such a tiny niche market - given we are so far apart there, I doubt we'd agree on a reasonable price.
I'd definitely second the comment regarding the differing print runs. The first printing was quite fragile (I got four of the Core Rulebooks and they all degraded pretty swiftly with minimal and gentle use) I haven't owned the second, but I think the third and fourth printings are noticably more sturdy than the initial batch.
Many First and Second Printings are like this. They changed printers with the Third/Fourth, and they're a LOT better.The book looks to be in near mint condition...until you pick it up.
Edit: I will say this. My other Pathfinder RPG hardcovers are not having this issue. But they are not as robust and receive even less use.
I have noticed this, the new book is a Fourth and MUCH better.
